A Note to All Women.

[FllMtl Novelist]

^ That looks like a good one, Fu! I also like the books

http://www.amazon.com/Guys-Are-Waffles-Girls-Spaghetti/dp/1400315166/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320183533&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Brizendine/dp/0767920104/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320183662&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Male-Brain-Louann-Brizendine-M-D/dp/0767927540/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320183679&sr=1-1

The last two go into the physical differences and changes the brain goes through at different stages in life as well as the neurochemistry that goes into things. It's pretty cool- they doesn't make it boring or read like a textbook, and I learned a lot about what was going on that explained the differences in communication. And what goes on at different stages of life (why things change- communication and life goals aren't static things)

Awesome. I must check my library.

Men and women do have communication differences, but I would be more likely to agree with my interpersonal communications textbook that the differences aren't as much as, "Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus" as "Men are from North Dakota. Women are from South Dakota."

However, I would argue that generally women are more likely to interpret words and actions on a different level than men in casual conversation.

Indeed. Men and women have more similarities than all the stereotypes would have you think. XD

I agree. This is because even some casual conversations get approached differently by men and women (in general).

Women are perceived as being more likely to verbalize their emotions and be attuned to the emotional meaning of a conversation or even just a look," says Dr. Scott Haltzman, Brown University psychiatry professor and the author of "Secrets of Happy Families."

"Men are more inclined to focus on using words, not as a tool to determine the emotionality of something, but to gather information."

@Neane: ^Facts. These are two of the many things stated in the book I linked to, but phrased differently. One of the cores of male/female communication confusion is that women generally view the world as a network of connections--as opposed to men, who generally view the world as something of a hierarchy. Another core is that while men and women desire both respect and to be liked, for women the desire to be liked often comes first, whereas men generally focus on respect.

So when close female friends get together, they often talk about their emotions. They aren't worried that showing sadness or fear will make them look weak. They discuss emotions to be sympathized with, because that's how they cope and build connections with their friends. On a related note, for a woman, picking up on a friend's sad mood before she's even said something's bothering her shows you care. So if a woman cares about someone, she's typically on the lookout for shifts in moods like that.

When guy friends spend time together, on the other hand, they're far more likely to either do an activity (e.g., sports) or discuss impersonal things (e.g., politics, video games) than emotions. Talking is more of a way to exchange information than building personal connections. Also, sadness or fear could be perceived as weakness and therefore threaten a man's position in the hierarchy. And even when guys do talk about problems, the problems are usually belittled, partly to cheer up the sad guy, and partly to keep him from seeming "one-down" (that is, lower than his friends in the hierarchy).

So if a woman sadly says "My aunt died", her female friends are likely to say something like, "Oh, I'm so sorry! I know how you feel; I was sad when my uncle/grandpa/mother died" in an effort to sympathize through showing their own sadness. The similarities (and therefore, connections) among the women are emphasized. Whereas if a guy sadly said "My aunt died", his guy friends are more likely to say something like "Oh, that sucks. Well, at least you don't have to mow her lawn anymore, right?" in an effort to cheer their friend up, and keep him from feeling embarrassed or ashamed of showing weakness. His position among equals and friends (who will disregard his depressed state to uphold his status) is confirmed.

^All generalities, of course. There are exceptions.

...I find the different ways men and women think kind of fascinating. XD

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I mean... instead of asking girls to do something (and in a sense pressuring them to change their behaviors), what if you instead learned to adapt to it? The more social cues and interpersonal dynamics you pick up and learn, you'll be able to learn when women are "reading too much into it", then you can dispel any concerns which they may have. Dialoging about it and coming to a mutually-understood conclusion always works better than complaining about it. Plus it only matures you (in terms of social enagements and behaviors) in the long run. Generalization or not, if it's your experience then you can work it to your advantage.

[Furen]

It's okay ladies, men are such jerks.

The man of the hour!

[Radical Dreamer]

I only named my thread, "A Note to All Women" to be sarcastic. Shiroi, you understood my intent the best. Thank you.

I should probably read the rest of the thread before I post this, but.

Can I just.

[SIZE="1"]Please don't take this too seriously, 'cause it's only a joke and I'm laughing so hard, I just have to point this out. XD[/SIZE]

"Women need to take things men say at face value!"

"But what I said wasn't meant to be taken at face value, there was a different meaning behind it!!"

[SIZE="1"]The end. XD[/SIZE]

[Xeno]

I should probably read the rest of the thread before I post this, but.

Can I just.

[SIZE="1"]Please don't take this too seriously, 'cause it's only a joke and I'm laughing so hard, I just have to point this out. XD[/SIZE]

"Women need to take things men say at face value!"

"But what I said wasn't meant to be taken at face value, there was a different meaning behind it!!"

[SIZE="1"]The end. XD[/SIZE]

*rimshot*

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I should probably read the rest of the thread before I post this, but.

Can I just.

[SIZE="1"]Please don't take this too seriously, 'cause it's only a joke and I'm laughing so hard, I just have to point this out. XD[/SIZE]

"Women need to take things men say at face value!"

"But what I said wasn't meant to be taken at face value, there was a different meaning behind it!!"

[SIZE="1"]The end. XD[/SIZE]

Meaning that women should be reading deep into things, after all?

This thread is such a paradox.

[DaughterOfZion]

Just for clarification, nowhere in my post did I say that ALL women do this.

I only named my thread, "A Note to All Women" to be sarcastic. Shiroi, you understood my intent the best. Thank you.

I think maybe you just illustrated part of the problem. Intend all you want, your phrasing in no way suggested that you DIDN'T mean all women. Your address says "Women of the World" and while you did say that this is an "unfortunate practice among many women" you immediately follow that up by saying "You". "You do this, you do that" thereby accusing every women reading your "letter" of this act, which, to me, completely negates the fact that you said many, not all, women do this.

And then there's the fact that this is the internet, and sarcasm doesn't carry well unless you make it extremely obvious. We can't all be Jonathan Swift.

[bkilbour]

I'm gonna come out and say that I love that men and women think so differently.
I don't think there would be any love between us if we thought the same way.
women might read into things sometimes, but that's only a symptom of having beautifully complex minds. Men might not always read into things, but I think that's something that can encourage dilligence and bravery.

let's celebrate this! I'm glad that God made us this way

[ABlipinTime]

Let me say first: I have a great relationship with my sister.

Let me say next: I have the hardest time explaining the things going on in my mind to most people. Why? For one thing, I have time to explain things to my sis clearly. Notably, we have common experiences to base our thoughts off of. Furthermore, it's quite clear that we think on two different levels: I think about the deepest essential meaning of things, and she... well, only she could answer that question. However, in conversation, we pretty much always discover that we are talking about the same thing but in two different ways.

There's different ways of viewing things, and I've had to get used to it, adjusting myself to say, "Well, okay, they don't see things the way I do." I try not to get angry over it anymore, but there is still great frustration sometimes - some of you may have noticed - but I blame that on not explaining everything very thoroughly.

Lesson: If you don't want someone reading something into what you're saying, then explain yourself THOROUGHLY. "Clearly" doesn't seem to be enough, for what's clear to you isn't necessarily going to be clear to the other person. Thus, being thorough is the better option. Granted, this means you have to say more, but hey, who doesn't like to talk (except introverts) ?


side comments:
+1 up for the Red Green quote, Rusty
+1 Smartypants for noting the paradox
@Hiryu - I'm not a jerk... ... just a ridiculous sinner.
@FllMtl Novelist - Agreed, men and women have lots of similarities.

To divert this conversation:
What's "hierarchical thought vs. connectedness" idea I'm hearing? I'm pretty sure I could relate the price of tea in china to someone crying, if that's what you mean. I'm confused. Please explain. (See, guys, I'm trying to be thorough... sort of.)

[Radical Dreamer]

Granted, this means you have to say more, but hey, who doesn't like to talk (except introverts)?

I don't want to throw this thread too far off subject, but being an enormous introvert, I just wanted to clarify this point. Introverted ≠ quiet or disinterested in holding conversations. Introverted only means that we can only recharge our batteries when we're alone and have time to rest, and that being around too many people for too long can drain us. Speaking for myself, I still love being around people I like, love contributing to conversations, and love talking to people one-on-one. I just need a break to be alone and reload when I've had too much. XD


Continue. XD

[ABlipinTime]

@Dreamer

I'm only joking. I'm sorry.
Yeah, my sister also says she's an introvert. You couldn't tell though because, as she put it, "I'm an introvert who's great at being an extrovert."

I guess by your definition, I'm also an introvert.

[FllMtl Novelist]

To divert this conversation:
What's "hierarchical thought vs. connectedness" idea I'm hearing? I'm pretty sure I could relate the price of tea in china to someone crying, if that's what you mean. I'm confused. Please explain. (See, guys, I'm trying to be thorough... sort of.)

It was in the book I linked, and explained better because I'm just paraphrasing and not getting paid. XD But I'll try to explain it better.

Disclaimer to save words: from here on out, I'm speaking in generalities.

Guys pay more attention to what their status is in a conversation, and whether people view them with respect or not. (You might even say they're sensitive about it, hur hur.) Guys are either slightly above whoever they're talking to (and show this through giving orders, getting them carried out, controlling the conversation, etc.) or slightly below (carrying out orders, being unable to speak for long, etc.). It's a pecking order, or 'hierarchy'. Of course, in some cases like the military, if someone officially ranked above you gives you an order, you don't have much choice in doing what that person says. But in other situations, where nobody's been given any special authority from outside, guys will generally compete as stated above. They say things like "Shut up", "Do this", "Give me that" often in their conversations. It's not rude, and there's not necessarily any malice, that's just how guys generally talk.

In contrast, women look at similarities between themselves and who they're talking to (i.e., connections). Similarities are emphasized, because the same means equal, which means nobody's left out, which in theory makes everyone happy. Women don't look at pecking order except in the case of obvious authority (e.g., teachers, priests/preachers). Other than that, everyone's on equal footing. Women don't generally give obvious orders (unless with authority), and don't focus on controlling conversation (in fact, many women will try to encourage someone quiet to speak). A woman typically downplays both any of her own higher status and someone else's lower status in order to make everyone similar, connected, and 'equal'. Apparent attempts at unnecessary power are scorned among women, because it threatens the equality. That's why women will say "Will you take out the trash, please?" or "Could you do me a huuuuge favor?" instead of a typical guy's "Hey. Take out the trash". Bluntly saying "Take out the trash" seems too domineering and pushy to a typical woman, so it's re-worded to make it seem less an order (which would inappropriately put the woman speaking above whoever she's talking to) and more of a request (better, since the two parties involved are perceived as equals). Even when a woman has authority, she'll often phrase her orders this way in an effort to seem less above her subordinates--that is, less different and more similar.

Another example of these two mindsets contrasting is in the stereotypical lost man not wanting to ask anyone for directions. Asking for information puts him in a lower position in that conversation than the person giving the information. Or, he thinks that whoever he asks won't be able to answer and so will make something up--to give the illusion of having the desired information, and thus maintain a higher position in the hierarchy. Women, of course, don't have a problem with asking for directions because they don't see a pecking order, and see no reason why someone who can't help them won't just say so.

Again, generalities. Some women are very in-tuned to status, and some guys don't pay attention so much. And there are plenty of people in-between (there are a lot of ways I talk more like a guy than a girl XD). Also, a person's individual personality plays a big part in how he/she talks too, whether male or female.

Does that make things clearer?

I should probably also point out that, according to the aforementioned book, as least part of why men and women talk and think so differently is because they grow up in different cultures--even if they grow up with both brothers and sisters. The above applies specifically to typical American men and women from their respective cultures; how Japanese, Australian, or French (or Portuguese, or...) men and women communicate, I have no idea. XD

[seaglass27]

I await the response letter that asks men to stop generalizing.

I, for one, never generalize. Why? Because I know that all generalizations are false.

[MomentOfInertia]

The precision of a generalization is directly proportional to its width.

[Rusty Claymore]

I, for one, never generalize. Why? Because I know that all generalizations are false.

Generally.

[That Dude]

Is it just me, or does anybody else find it funny how much was read into his statement?

[FllMtl Novelist]

Is it just me, or does anybody else find it funny how much was read into his statement?

Uhh... I really don't think anybody was purposely 'reading into' his post. This is related to what I was saying: even when you think you're being clear, sometimes you're not, and you can't assume that every time someone misunderstands you, it can only be his/her fault and he/she must alter an aspect of his/her behavior solely to accommodate you. That's a pretty obnoxious attitude.

Different people can interpret the same words very differently (for a prime example, look at Bible interpretations). And it's not always the two genders seeing different things, it can just as easily be different personalities or backgrounds. So the OP got many interpretations, some of them more offensive than others. I don't think there was any malice towards Yama when people first opened the thread, or women thinking "Ohmygosh he made this post that clearly means one thing but it must mean something else entirely I'm going to find some lines to read between!"

[Maledicte]

"Dear Men: Stop reading things into everything. Just because a girl laughs at your jokes does not necessarily mean she is interested in dating you. She may just like your jokes."

There. I did a flip-side. You're welcome.

It's not just a one-gender thing. I have to learn to just listen to people instead of trying to give advice or solutions. If they're venting they usually don't want it.

[Makachop^^128]

I'm gonna come out and say that I love that men and women think so differently.
I don't think there would be any love between us if we thought the same way.
women might read into things sometimes, but that's only a symptom of having beautifully complex minds. Men might not always read into things, but I think that's something that can encourage dilligence and bravery.

let's celebrate this! I'm glad that God made us this way

yea! I totally agree
If Women thought like men for a day.....the world would be a mess, same thing goes for if men thought like Women. I like the differences.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

That Dude, I'm with you, mate.
Yes, the original poster made a broad generalization and could've used more tact but people jumped on him like vultures and tore him to pieces. It's as if he'd said women shouldn't work and should only birth babies or something even more extreme. Crazy! Both sides need to chill down.

[Cognitive Gear]

I just want to stop in and say that not all women and men think entirely differently from one another, and it would be very boring if all men thought the same way, and all women thought the same way. There are more factors to it than just simply what biological sex you are.

To quote wikipedia:

Early gender identity research hypothesized a single bipolar dimension of masculinity/femininity; that is masculinity and femininity were opposites on one continuum. As societal stereotypes changed, however, the assumptions of the unidimensional model were challenged. This led to the development of a two-dimensional gender identity model, in which masculinity and femininity were conceptualized as two separate, orthogonal dimensions, coexisting in varying degrees within an individual. This conceptualization on femininity and masculinity remains the accepted standard today.[38]
Two instruments incorporating the multidimensional of masculinity and femininity have dominated gender identity research: The Bem Sex Role Inventory (BSRI) and the Personal Attributes Questionnaire (PAQ). Both instruments categorize individuals as either being sex typed (males report themselves as identifying primarily with masculine traits, females report themselves as identifying primarily with feminine traits), cross sex-typed (males report themselves as identifying primarily with feminine traits, females report themselves as identifying primarily with masculine traits), androgynous (either males or females who report themselves as high on both masculine and feminine traits) or undifferentiated (either males or females who report themselves as low on both masculine and feminine traits).[39] Twenge (1997) noted that, although men are generally more masculine than women and women generally more feminine than men, the association between biological sex and masculinity/femininity is waning.[40]

Honestly, I think the idea that women or men all think alike is something that causes a lot of frustration for the people that hold to it. I can't imagine how mysterious and completely not understandable and irrational women would seem if I thought that way.

[Maledicte]

^this.

[Neane]

I think this picture best tells why Men and Women are meant to be different in some ways:

[Yamamaya]

That Dude, I'm with you, mate.
Yes, the original poster made a broad generalization and could've used more tact but people jumped on him like vultures and tore him to pieces. It's as if he'd said women shouldn't work and should only birth babies or something even more extreme. Crazy! Both sides need to chill down.

Thank you. The post was made in the heat of the moment, and I definitely could have stated it more tactfully. I was in no way saying anything sexist like that. I was merely stating a perceived difference I have seen at times between the sexes. But now that that's settled we can focus on more important matters.

I think this picture best tells why Men and Women are meant to be different in some ways:

Like this pic. It's amazing.

I'm inclined to believe that there are some inherant differences between men and women, but there are many exceptions within the sexes thus I am wary to say what those inherant differences would be. Trying to figure out the social aspect of gender and how it applies is a very very difficult thing to do.

[seaglass27]

I didn't realize that this had become "a heated discussion." In fact, I was wondering why it wasn't in Goof Off. Am I just oblivious?

[alma]

I didn't realize that this had become "a heated discussion." In fact, I was wondering why it wasn't in Goof Off. Am I just oblivious?

You are not alone in Obliviousland. I think I have made a camping ground over there.
My first impression of the thread when it started was "this looks for the goof off section".

[Tarnish]

Women, huh? Man I hate 'em.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I just want to stop in and say that not all women and men think entirely differently from one another, and it would be very boring if all men thought the same way, and all women thought the same way. There are more factors to it than just simply what biological sex you are.

To quote wikipedia:



Honestly, I think the idea that women or men all think alike is something that causes a lot of frustration for the people that hold to it. I can't imagine how mysterious and completely not understandable and irrational women would seem if I thought that way.

Hoorah gender studies!

I tend to take on the stance that culture reinforces any general "Differences" which may occur between men and women. Furthermore, "gender" doesn't really exist anyway. It's socially constructed. Some even argue that "biological sex" itself is socially constructed as well, such as Judith Butler. She's fascinating. Anyways, I also think that these differences are slowly waning, and that the binary opposites of "masculine vs feminine" are both loosing their strengths. As Maledicte pointed out, there are plenty of instances where men read too much into things as well.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Oh, Ryan, please don't tell me you believe 'gender' doesn't exist.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I'll pull a quote from wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender_difference

Social construction of gender difference believes that gender is socially constructed. Social constructionism of gender moves away from socialization as the origin of gender differences; people do not merely internalize gender roles as they grow up but they respond to changing norms in society.[1] Children learn to categorize themselves by gender very early on in life. A part of this is learning how to display and perform gendered identities as masculine or feminine. Boys learn to manipulate their physical and social environment through physical strength or other skills, while girls learn to present themselves as objects to be viewed.[2] Children monitor the their own and others’ gendered behavior. Gender-segregated children's activities creates the appearance that gender differences in behavior reflect an essential nature of male and female behavior.[3]

Judith Butler[4] contends that being female is not “natural” and that it appears natural only through repeated performances of gender; these performances in turn, reproduce and define the traditional categories of sex and/or gender. A social constructionist view looks beyond categories and examines the intersections of multiple identities, the blurring of the boundaries of essentialist categories. This is especially true with regards to categories of male and female that are typically viewed by others as binary and opposites of each other. By deconstructing categories of gender, the value placed on masculine traits and behaviors disappears. However, the elimination of categories makes it difficult to make any comparisons between the genders or to argue and fight against male domination.

To summarize, people internalize what society describes as "male behaviors" or "female behaviors" (because gender is not the same as sex, this is very important to differentiate between). There's no inherent or intrinsic value/meaning to "masculine" or "feminine". They only exist because people have socially defined what those traits are and what they mean. Thus, they don't "exist" in the sense that they hold any sort of concrete meaning. They're made up ideas which people collectively accept as true. It's like money. Money has no actual worth. It's only worth something because society has created it as a means for exchange of other goods and services. Thus, its value is socially constructed, i.e. nonexistent.