Purity

[Yamamaya]

hm.... the problem always lies with "sex feels good."

so.... the people who, for the most part disagree with AliveinHim on all this stuff are doing it because they want to get that high. Pure and simple.

Those who say kissing/platonic affection (no, not pederasty, just hugging and whatnot)
is okay are those who enjoy that sort of thing, but draw a line.

Those who agree with AliveinHim are of the same sort as herself.

The first viewpoint is wrong, because fornication is wrong. the second viewpoint is fine, given the individual has enough self-control to enforce said limits (like keeping yourself to a limit when you're out drinking, be careful that the more you have, the more you'll want). The third? Well, AliveinHim, I gotta hand it to ya that you're probably gonna need a lot of patience, but in the end it'll be either totally worth it or a big mixed bag.
Personally, I'm just not doing anything with anyone, not even going out on a date, until God shows me and gives the green light. Until then, I'm cool spending my time with Him.

Because clearly anyone who wants sex is a horrible loose person and they should feel bad.
Sex should feel horrible then our world would be better. Anyone who disagrees with kissing before marriage is a horrible person and they are going to get STDS.

Should you use self control, draw lines, and use common sense? Yes.

If someone wants to save their kiss for their wedding day then sure, more power to them. But don't try to act like those who don't are horrible loose people.

Also Okami, you are awesome.

[FllMtl Novelist]

Oh! I misunderstood. I thought you were saying your own thoughts, not what your dad wanted you to think. My mistake!

Though I will say that YOU are the person marrying the guy, not your dad, so who cares if your dad likes him or not. :p

Yeah, Ive edited that because I realize it didn't come out clearly. ^^;;

[Htom Sirveaux]

I have a question for Htom. when you are dating with intention how far are you thinking into the future with this girl? When does it go from intentionally to just creepy? Not disagreeing with you. I actually feel the same way about casual dating but sometimes when I like a guy I'm like " is it really weird that I'm thinking about this stuff so soon? I don't want to be one of "those" girls. XD

Man. This was on page four. Last I saw this thread, that was all there was to it, and that was just last night. Now suddenly it's almost twice as long.

To answer your question, it's more like an effort to get to know her better. "Is this the kind of woman I could see myself with?", sort of thing. But this situation very rarely presents itself anyway as I'm apparently not all that popular with the ladies.

[Yuki-Anne]

Man. This was on page four. Last I saw this thread, that was all there was to it, and that was just last night. Now suddenly it's almost twice as long.

To answer your question, it's more like an effort to get to know her better. "Is this the kind of woman I could see myself with?", sort of thing. But this situation very rarely presents itself anyway as I'm apparently not all that popular with the ladies.

Okay, this makes sense. I'm assuming you wouldn't go on a first date and be like, "I'M HERE BECAUSE I AM HOPING YOU ARE MY FUTURE WIFE." o_o

I think we're all thinking it, maybe, but saying it is what makes aaaalllll the difference.

[Yamamaya]

Okay, this makes sense. I'm assuming you wouldn't go on a first date and be like, "I'M HERE BECAUSE I AM HOPING YOU ARE MY FUTURE WIFE." o_o

I think we're all thinking it, maybe, but saying it is what makes aaaalllll the difference.

For some reason, I just envisioned a nerdy Japanese teenager coming up to you and asking, "Will you please be my future wife?"

[Hansha]

Okay, this makes sense. I'm assuming you wouldn't go on a first date and be like, "I'M HERE BECAUSE I AM HOPING YOU ARE MY FUTURE WIFE." o_o

I think we're all thinking it, maybe, but saying it is what makes aaaalllll the difference.

ha ha yeah, I know I would run if someone said it but if i somehow I knew they were thinking of it as "hey maybe someday" I wouldn't be creeped out.

[Hansha]

For some reason, I just envisioned a nerdy Japanese teenager coming up to you and asking, "Will you please be my future wife?"

THAT just made me think of Miroku

[bkilbour]

Sorry, I'm gonna go flat out and say it's stupid and BS. Because otherwise I can justify doing anything by that logic.
. :/

Hey Nate, I've got this great idea]marriage bed[/I] is undefiled, and that "fornicators and adulterers God will judge." And when it talks about avoiding the lusts of the flesh, well,.... yeah.

[Nate]

it's where you respect someone else's opinion, debate it with civility, and don't blast them for it.

If someone has the opinion that blacks are inferior to whites, I'm not going to respect their opinion. Nobody has expressed that sentiment in that thread, I'm just saying I'm not going to respect stupid opinions.

Second, I wasn't calling Patrick stupid, I was calling the family stupid. He was defending them a bit, but I wasn't attacking him. I was just saying "Their opinion is stupid and here is why it is stupid." I wasn't calling him stupid. I apologize if I was unclear on that.

[Htom Sirveaux]

Hebrews 13]marriage bed[/I] is undefiled, and that "fornicators and adulterers God will judge." And when it talks about avoiding the lusts of the flesh, well,.... yeah.

That seems to be referring to couples who are already married though. The focus isn't on premarital sex, but extramarital. If I found the woman I wanted to marry and it turned out she wasn't a virgin, I don't think I'd care. I'm not exactly St. Peter over here myself.

Or perhaps that was your point to begin with, in which case, nevermind.

[Ante Bellum]

[quote="FllMtl Novelist (post: 1461193)"]I think my Dad was hoping for "not arty". ^^]

Wait what.

[bkilbour]

@nate....sure. whatever you gotta say, man.

@htom, I personally believe that premarital sex is extramarital sex. If Christ tells us all (not just the married ones) that looking at a girl to lust for her is the same as adultery in our hearts, then it doesn't matter whether we are married or not.
And yep - if a woman wasn't a virgin on your wedding night, and you were still loving and accepting, that's the right thing to do. God remains loving and accepting, and so should we.

[Seto_Sora]

I think BK is spot on here when he says premarital is the same as extramarital. It all comes down to when Christ clarified the Law in Matthew 5 describing looking with lust the same as committing adulatory in one's heart. Basically, if we lust after another before marriage, we are lusting after another's spouse and committing the sin of adulatory.
Now here is the catch. Christ also said that it isn't the healthy that need a doctor. He came to save the lost. What that means is, yes, there may be a regrettable past. That is not going to make one's spouse or oneself any less sanctified or holy on their wedding day. When we come to saving faith in Christ, the old is passed away and the new has come. We are new creatures in Christ. So that means that in God's eyes, your spouse or you are as pure and holy as if you had all the righteousness of Christ. And we should look at our spouse the same way; holy in the sight of Christ.

SDG

[Nate]

I think BK is spot on here when he says premarital is the same as extramarital.

Hmm, I don't think I agree. If I'm engaged to a woman and have sex with her, then marry her, I haven't had extramarital sex, because I've only ever had sex with my wife. However, I would have had premarital sex. I do think there is a difference, though again to most people both are equally wrong so I guess it hardly matters. But I do think that they aren't the same.

Basically, if we lust after another before marriage, we are lusting after another's spouse and committing the sin of adulatory.

See, I don't think the whole "you're lusting after another's spouse" is the reason for this. Because otherwise, hentai wouldn't be sinful, since cartoons can't ever be a person's wife. Same for a person who's into like...I dunno, cars or toasters. Those things won't ever be someone's wife, so if someone lusted after those it wouldn't be sinful by that logic.

Not to mention by my previous example, if I was looking lustfully at my fiance (does it have two e's or one for the female?) and married here, I wasn't lusting after someone else's spouse, because I married her. Most people would still say it's wrong to look at her with lust before we're married, though, so again, the "other person's spouse" thing doesn't hold their either. There has to be some other explanation.

[Seto_Sora]

See, I don't think the whole "you're lusting after another's spouse" is the reason for this. Because otherwise, hentai wouldn't be sinful, since cartoons can't ever be a person's wife. Same for a person who's into like...I dunno, cars or toasters. Those things won't ever be someone's wife, so if someone lusted after those it wouldn't be sinful by that logic.

Not to mention by my previous example, if I was looking lustfully at my fiance (does it have two e's or one for the female?) and married here, I wasn't lusting after someone else's spouse, because I married her. Most people would still say it's wrong to look at her with lust before we're married, though, so again, the "other person's spouse" thing doesn't hold their either. There has to be some other explanation.

You bring up some very interesting and, I think, very fair questions that everyone of us here are going to have to face and answer one day. As to "lusting" after cars and such, that would actually be classified as covetousness, its a sin, not the same sin but still a sin. As to those Europeans who marry buildings and inanimate objects... well, all I can say is that I hope they can find some emotional fulfillment... and that I feel sorry for them.
You bring up an extremely good question about hentai. Is it actually "lust" because it is only a drawing? Well, the Bible only mentions about living breathing people. However, if you imagine the consequences and who this desire ultimately affects, you do have to come to the conclusion that it is wrong. How do I figure this? well, based on this, what would my spouse think if she found I lusted after drawn women? How would this affect my children? What would become of my Christian testimony. The world expects the Christian to be faithful to his wife just like Christ is faithful to the Church. So I can say its wrong. And thats my conscience, and I do believe it is Biblical.
Your second point is much much harder to answer. The reason is because, well, if your engaged it only makes sense that you will marry her and its only logical that you'll desire her. But as one formerly engaged, I would caution being loose in that area. As sure as things may seem, we don't know the future and she may not actually be the one you are going to marry. that is just a word of caution from my life experiences. Most of you will have to answer that question for yourselves though.

SDG

[Nate]

As to "lusting" after cars and such, that would actually be classified as covetousness, its a sin, not the same sin but still a sin.

Uh...no man...there's seriously people who are sexually attracted to cars. That's lust. XD

Anyway my point wasn't that hentai was perfectly okay or anything like that. I was just saying when Jesus said looking at a woman lustfully was the same as adultery, it isn't because "You're looking at someone else's wife." Because otherwise that WOULD mean hentai was okay, because a cartoon can't be someone's wife. I was just saying there has to be another explanation other than that.

Which you covered in your post. :p

[bkilbour]

@ Nate. I totally agree with Patrick here.
James 4; 13-14
"Come now, you who say 'today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit;'
whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away."

The engaged couple is acting on the assumption that they'll live to see the day they get married (or that they'll get married in the first place). If you were to die prior to marrying her, you would still have to answer to God for what you did.

Also, we know from the Psalms and Proverbs that God sees into men's hearts. Since "love" (eros) is no excuse, and "I knew I was going to marry her" doesn't fly, then I can only conclude that there is no good reason to fornicate with a girl, even if you're engaged to her.

And yeah... hentai is not only a form of graven image, it's also still lusting after a woman - just a pretend woman. She may not be someone's future wife, but it's still wrong to watch it.

[Nate]

If you were to die prior to marrying her, you would still have to answer to God for what you did.

Not really but now we're getting into an argument on faith vs. works and that's way off-topic.

hentai is not only a form of graven image

This I don't understand at all. Well first of all it can't be "graven" because the word graven means sculpted or carved. All the hentai I've seen is ink and cels...or ones and zeros. :p That kind of prevents it from being sculpted or carved.

Second, even if it was a graven image, so what? Statue of Liberty's a graven image and nothing's wrong with that. All statues are graven images. If you're trying to say that hentai is a form of idolatry that makes zero sense, unless you're going with the argument that "You're putting it above God." Well okay, but then all sin is idolatry and that's just a bizarre definition to call for example, theft idolatry.

[TopazRaven]

Stop with all this arguing! Can't you see it's tearing us apart! Can't we all just get along!?!

xD

On a more serious note, I really think you guys should just drop the subject. The more you all argue about the issue the more likley it's going to be that 1) someone gets angry and says something not so nice, or, 2) the thread gets closed to aviod option 1.

[bkilbour]

@nate - "faith versus works?" oh yeah, you know me... total pharisee over here. I'm just rarin' to point a finger.

@ topaz - Yeah.... that's usually what happens with this kind of thread. They usually get locked up...

[Radical Dreamer]

[quote="bkilbour (post: 1461215)"]Hey Nate, I've got this great idea]

A good start to getting others to do this is to exercise civility and respect yourself. Please do not bring unnecessary sarcasm and disrespect into this thread; the tone of many of your posts here is uncalled for.

Anyways, I'm not going to lock this thread, but I will ask that we return to the topic and also return to being respectful towards one another and not caustic.

[Hansha]

Regardless of the standards you have I do thinks its a good idea to make them concrete or you have more of a chance of justifying something you will later regret. A list is a good idea aliveinHim!

[Yamamaya]

On this topic, how does one define purity in the first place? Would one say David was pure. He had many wives and concubines.

*just some food for thought*

[Nate]

how does one define purity in the first place?

I always look in the trusty dictionary. It never fails me! So the dictionary says that purity can be defined as "the condition or quality of being pure."

...yep.

[Hansha]

I always look in the trusty dictionary. It never fails me! So the dictionary says that purity can be defined as "the condition or quality of being pure."

...yep.

I never would have thought...

[Yamamaya]

I always look in the trusty dictionary. It never fails me! So the dictionary says that purity can be defined as "the condition or quality of being pure."

...yep.

Daniel Webster must have been a real jerk.

[Seto_Sora]

On this topic, how does one define purity in the first place? Would one say David was pure. He had many wives and concubines.

*just some food for thought*

You know that is a brilliant question! Before we can answer many of these questions, we have to do some serious self-reflection from the Study of God's Word.
Interesting you bring up David, >.> I would not call him pure... uh, he slept with another man's wife and then tried to kill him to hid his sin. Yeah. LOL No, I think if we want a good Biblical example of "pure" we should look at Christ. And I think how that is defined is that true purity is seeking after Our Lord's Will. Everything else falls into place if our focus is affixed to Christ.

SDG

[Yamamaya]

You know that is a brilliant question! Before we can answer many of these questions, we have to do some serious self-reflection from the Study of God's Word.
Interesting you bring up David, >.> I would not call him pure... uh, he slept with another man's wife and then tried to kill him to hid his sin. Yeah. LOL No, I think if we want a good Biblical example of "pure" we should look at Christ. And I think how that is defined is that true purity is seeking after Our Lord's Will. Everything else falls into place if our focus is affixed to Christ.

SDG

Keep in mind that the Bible called David a "man after God's own heart." Not to mention the fact that a lot of the people that received a lot of praise in the Bible had multiple wives and concubines(some of them forced upon them by their own wives a la Rachel and Sarah).

[Seto_Sora]

Keep in mind that the Bible called David a "man after God's own heart." Not to mention the fact that a lot of the people that received a lot of praise in the Bible had multiple wives and concubines(some of them forced upon them by their own wives a la Rachel and Sarah).

Whoa! Double! Awesome! You are right on! My post didn't clearly sate it. Purity isn't defined by our own actions or person, as we can clearly see here with these awesome examples you put forth! XD Our purity is defined in Christ's Holiness; He lived a holy life and died a sinners death. He took our death and we are given His Holiness! So covered in the Blood of Jesus Christ, we are as pure as whitest snow in sight of beloved God! ^_^ So then we look at these heroes of the faith like David or Abraham and what not. David was considered a man after God's own heart because he looked forward to that same sacrifice on yon Cross! XD And Abraham because of his faith. These men were pure because the blood of the Christ covered them also. Quite simply, our purity isn't defined in our actions or deeds but; rather, in the life and sacrifice of Holy Jesus Christ! XD

SDG

[Shao Feng-Li]

On this topic, how does one define purity in the first place? Would one say David was pure. He had many wives and concubines.

*just some food for thought*

I've never heard of David being pure. He was a horrible sinner that God loved. No one can ever be pure. One definition of pure is "free from moral fault or guilt." Obviously God forgives his sins, but he still lives with the consequences.