Mature prayer topics (older or mature members only, please)

[shooraijin]

When you say 'homosexuals don't enter the kingdom of heaven,' please cite the verse that you are referring to.

As far as I'm concerned, homosexuality is no different and no worse than any other sin. I don't really want to migrate too afield on this, but I think this deserves a discussion on attitudes on homosexuality in the church, and both sides of the issue need serious improvement.

The LGBT movement, especially its non-Christian parts, have successfully managed to position a moral objection to homosexuality as homophobia, but I'd draw a clear distinction between 'FAGS GO TO HELL' and 'love the sinner but not the sin'. Moreover, even many Christian LGBTs have shunned people in the ex-gay movement as traitors and have refused to recognize the validity of their choice.

By the same token, more fundamentalist elements regard any person who self-identifies as gay as someone to be cast out of the church, even those who are gay by orientation but maintain a celibate lifestyle by choice. Those who are ex-gays are recognized and welcomed, but may be forced into a heterosexual lifestyle that they themselves don't feel comfortable with. The most extreme form comes with those ex-gays who have married and have children, but ultimately live in a sham relationship to the detriment of their family and marriage because they truly are not attracted to their spouse.

This is obviously a double standard, on both sides. More liberal elements want gays to be recognized in the church, but refuse to recognize those who want to bend their own natural impulses into what they regard as constructive, where the other side will only recognize the latter group and regards gays in the church as sinful simply because they are gay regardless of what they do about it. Jesus himself never behaved that way among the sinners He frequented during his time on earth; He only asked that such people leave their lives of sin (such as the lady who was not stoned). Moreover, with other deleterious biologically-influenced behaviours such as alcoholism, we embrace their decision and never exclude them simply for being alcoholic; why this is not done for gays is beyond me.

Make no mistake that even in the New Testament, our program of salvation, the homosexual act is condemned in no uncertain terms and for this reason I believe that the only compatible lifestyle for a gay in the Christian church is abstinence. But the fact that you had a homosexual encounter in no way makes you any different, or more importantly any worse, than someone who had any other lapse of sin. The fact that you have attractions to the same sex in and of itself does not constitute a sin, nor does the act make you any different from any other sinner, and you are exactly right to say that you are made right with God by His grace already.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

I haven't much to contribute to this on a... researched level- the only "legit information" I have on the subject is from my very homophobic parents, but I defend homosexuality regardless. For some reason or another, I believe everyone is born bisexual and you end up choosing...
I mean, I'm bisexual in nature, and I think a lot of people are, but I don't know if that's sin... because I mean... I don't think about the physicality of the situation as much as I view it as a relationship where you "wash dishes together and pay bills". Sort of thing. I believe heteroflexible is an appropriate term.

I've definitely had my homosexual moments, but for some reason I think God understands. Like... he knows you. He wouldn't condemn you I don't think...

Like I said, I'm confused about it too, so I'll just keep you in my prayers for now =]

[shooraijin]

As far as the biological basis for homosexuality, this is probably not a good thread to discuss that in (getting too far afield).

Regardless, the fact that someone is or identifies as LGBT does not, the way I see it, equate with condemnation. It all matters what you do with those attractions.

[edochick]

Oh, I'm sorry. It's 1 Corinthians 6:9.
But then someone pointed out to me the verse right after that. "1 Cor 6:11:
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." NKJV

So I guess I just need to have confidence in my salvation. I just don't know how to make the thoughts go away. How to feel him in my life. How to feel like I actually am saved.

[Lengai]

I don't believe that one can lose their salvation. I don't think your encounter stripped away your salvation, at all. I think that my heart lies with witnessing to homosexuals, because it really breaks my heart to see.

Like Shooraijin, I don't see homosexuality as worse than other sexual sins. Just a different kind. Perhaps we like to make it seem worse, though, because it tends to be a lifestyle rather than a one-time slip.

Homosexuality, I believe, is a lie of Satan to further pervert what God meant love, marriage, and sex to be. I don't think you can identify with being a lesbian and be furthering your walk with God. You sound like you either have changed or want to change, because you know in your heart that this ordeal was wrong. While you haven't lost your salvation in this act, I feel that consciously continuing to live a homosexual lifestyle and claiming to be a Christian would be like slapping Christ in the face. It would be the same as with anyone who called themselves a Christian and chose to sin on a regular basis anyway. "Fire Insurance" people, as they've been called.

But you sound like you really have walked closely with the Lord. I agree with Shooraijin, who knows more than I do, methinks.

I'll pray for you, and I suggest that you not only pray for God to draw you close, but for Satan's hold on your thoughts to stop. I believe that demons can influence our thoughts. You can exert your authority as a believer and audibly tell them to get lost in the name of Christ. I don't see another reason for you to still be having these thoughts, because you seem to want to change, right?

[edochick]

I definitely want to change. I've already made the decision to, it's just that now I think Satan's trying to stop me. I will definitely pray, thank you for your support, everyone that's commented.

Do you have any scriptures that explain that you can't lose your salvation?

[CrimsonRyu17]

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 8:38-39

[Lengai]

Romans 11:29 (New International Version)
"..For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

2 Timothy 2:13 (New International Version)
"If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

[edochick]

Thank you! Those really helped

[xblack_x_rosesx]

"It would be the same as with anyone who called themselves a Christian and chose to sin on a regular basis anyway. "Fire Insurance" people, as they've been called."

Gah...
I am this.

Friggity. I keep having sex. I don't see anything wrong with it- I feel no guilt or any feelings that I need to change, so I keep doing it, and I keep thinking I'm not sinning. That really seems like my situation. Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Frustrated with myself.

Not trying to draw attention from Edo- she deserves the prayers (praying for you ^_^) , so continue on her discuassion, that "fire insurance" thing just really... jumped at my throat for a minute.

[animechica]

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but because most sexual topics have ended up here, I'll post here.

This might seem weird, but I want prayer for my relationship with my boyfriend. Not that I'm struggling by any means, but some changes have been made and I'm having trouble dealing with them and knowing what to think.

We both love to cuddle and have done so a lot over the past year that we've been dating. Well, whenever my mom saw us doing so (we even have my door open when we're in my room) she didn't really like it. My dad explained that it made him feel uncomfortable because it "looked bad" and because it might lead my sister to think bad stuff. Of course, the main reason we were doing this is because we were both too lazy to sit up against an uncomfortable wall, and because there is a level of closeness that can only be achieved by lying face to face on a soft bed.

Well, since I figured if it only "looked" bad and God knows what's in our hearts anyway (Not that I always think perfect thoughts, I don't), if nobody saw us it would be fine, right? After all my dad seemed to make the main reason "Because your siblings are impressionable". But no... I was finally told a definite "Do not lie together." (After all this time... my parents have a way of having really definite opinions that don't seem to translate into what they tell me.) Because I try to obey my parents, we don't cuddle like that anymore, but it's really tough.

For one thing, I feel genuinely fatigued when I'm with my boyfriend. I'll want to lie down, but if I do, he'll want to. So if he is, I can't, because that would be lying together. *sigh* It often results in one person lying on a bed while the other just sort of sits there and looks down on the one lying down...

Also, why is it that when you're dating, people stress the importance of not making the relationship about physical things, but if you're married, you NEED a healthy sex life and affection from your spouse to keep a good relationship? WHY? I understand the abstinence since it's possible to love someone without having sex with them, but: Most people who love each other want to express it with affection, and have it be expressed to them. More than kissing, cuddling makes me feel really loved and close to my boyfriend. Now that we can't anymore, both he and I have noticed that it makes us feel more distant, even when we're hanging out. It feels restricted.

I hope we can find other ways of expressing affection than disobeying my parents. I value my "friend-time" with my boyfriend, but it feels so empty without being able to cuddle like we used to and it makes me really sad. I'm already waiting until I marry him to have sex with him, which is something I really look forward to because of the level of closeness and the physical release as well. Now I have to wait to simply even cuddle with him? It's so depressing... anyway, any input and/or prayers would be greatly appreciated...

[minakichan]

@Sapphi:

I think this is an issue of what your parents want more than anything else. Parents don't make sense a lot; I don't see any legitimate reason to obey them in this case other than just for the sake of obeisance.

Also, ditto on the "why can't dating couple have physical relationship and why must married couples have to have them." It's illogical! I think the idea the marriage require physicality is a social construct. I don't think God ever says that it HAS to happen...

[Radical Dreamer]

Also, why is it that when you're dating, people stress the importance of not making the relationship about physical things, but if you're married, you NEED a healthy sex life and affection from your spouse to keep a good relationship? WHY? I understand the abstinence since it's possible to love someone without having sex with them, but: Most people who love each other want to express it with affection, and have it be expressed to them. More than kissing, cuddling makes me feel really loved and close to my boyfriend. Now that we can't anymore, both he and I have noticed that it makes us feel more distant, even when we're hanging out. It feels restricted.

The best answer I can come up with for that question is that yes, marriages DO need a healthy sex-life, but before you get married, you need to really know the person you're about to spend the rest of your life with. On this fact alone, it's best to leave sex until after marriage, simply because you need to build a strong relationship on an emotional and mental level before you take it to a more physical level.

Additionally, a physical and sexual relationship creates a bond between the two people involved, and if that doesn't work out in the end, it's going to hurt a LOT more than it will if the relationship has only been initially building on an emotional and mental level. That isn't to say that cuddling or kissing or holding hands before marriage is a bad thing, but this brings me to my third point, where it comes down to obeying your parents. God DOES know your heart, but His word also tells us to avoid the appearance of evil, and if your parents think that your sister will see you and your boyfriend and get the idea that she can go further in her future premarital relationships, they do have a right to ask that you refrain from cuddling, especially in their house.

[minakichan]

The best answer I can come up with for that question is that yes, marriages DO need a healthy sex-life

Not to mean to nitpick on small things, but impotent marriages? Asexual marriages? Some people are actually physically incapable of sex, and others do not get physically aroused or responsive, or gain no pleasure from it. Even ED is a major problem barring sexual intimacy... I don't think that shouldn't bar them from the emotional closeness that supposedly comes with marriage. So I continue to argue against this point.

[ShiroiHikari]

I dunno, I think asking two legal adults not to cuddle because the younger siblings might think "LOL SEX" is pushing it. If the kids are going around thinking about that, then they need to be talked to or something anyway. I know, it's your parents' house and all, but I still think that's pretty unreasonable.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Not to mean to nitpick on small things, but impotent marriages? Asexual marriages? Some people are actually physically incapable of sex, and others do not get physically aroused or responsive, or gain no pleasure from it. Even ED is a major problem barring sexual intimacy... I don't think that shouldn't bar them from the emotional closeness that supposedly comes with marriage. So I continue to argue against this point.

That would be an exception, I'm sure.

I haven't much to contribute to this on a... researched level- the only "legit information" I have on the subject is from my very homophobic parents, but I defend homosexuality regardless. For some reason or another, I believe everyone is born bisexual and you end up choosing...
I mean, I'm bisexual in nature, and I think a lot of people are, but I don't know if that's sin... because I mean... I don't think about the physicality of the situation as much as I view it as a relationship where you "wash dishes together and pay bills". Sort of thing. I believe heteroflexible is an appropriate term.

I've definitely had my homosexual moments, but for some reason I think God understands. Like... he knows you. He wouldn't condemn you I don't think...

Like I said, I'm confused about it too, so I'll just keep you in my prayers for now =]

You believe everyone is bisexual in nature... Now... are you sure with yourself as to why? Do you have legitimate data other than self experience that leads you to believe that? I don't want to get into a discussion about that over the forum, but just wanted you to think about that for yourself.

And try to avoid saying you're "this" or "that" by nature. It's used pretty loosely but we can't really evaluate ourselves if we are a certain way out of biology or learned behavior.

[Tsukuyomi]

I agree with Shiroi. If your siblings are that impressionable, your parents should talk to them. They should be glad that you leave your door open while in your room cuddling together o.O It's showing them that you two are responsible and that you two have nothing to hide u_u

[Nate]

I think the idea the marriage require physicality is a social construct. I don't think God ever says that it HAS to happen...

Actually that's untrue for a couple of reasons, one is that (and I'm pretty sure this is somewhere in the Bible) when a couple was married, the way to show that was that they had sex, which was (and is) called consummation. This is also part of the reason why if a single man raped a single woman in the OT days, he would be forced to marry her, because he had already performed an act of marriage consummation with her (the others being that she would be a social reject, and have no financial support).

You also have to remember that having children was a LOT more important in the OT days than it is these days. So much so that it was the law that if a man died without having a child, his brother was required to marry his widow and have children by her. Read the story of Onan, Onan refused to fulfill the obligation to produce children by his brother's wife and God struck him down for it.

So at the very least we can see that while God doesn't exactly DEMAND physicality in marriage, he is a strong supporter of it.

[Makachop^^128]

I think the idea the marriage require physicality is a social construct. I don't think God ever says that it HAS to happen...

read Genesis

[minakichan]

Actually that's untrue for a couple of reasons, one is that (and I'm pretty sure this is somewhere in the Bible) when a couple was married, the way to show that was that they had sex, which was (and is) called consummation. This is also part of the reason why if a single man raped a single woman in the OT days, he would be forced to marry her, because he had already performed an act of marriage consummation with her (the others being that she would be a social reject, and have no financial support).

You also have to remember that having children was a LOT more important in the OT days than it is these days. So much so that it was the law that if a man died without having a child, his brother was required to marry his widow and have children by her. Read the story of Onan, Onan refused to fulfill the obligation to produce children by his brother's wife and God struck him down for it.

So at the very least we can see that while God doesn't exactly DEMAND physicality in marriage, he is a strong supporter of it.

But a lot of this is Mosaic Law, so I don't think it necessarily applies that much now (for the same reason we eat shellfish, have no cloaks with tassels or whatever, and don't stone homosexuals). I will take a "strong support" as a suggestion and not a commandment if that's ok, and I won't feel bad for it for the same reason I don't feel bad for not selling all of my possessions and giving the proceeds to the poor, though that might be a bit of a stretch.

I dunno, I think communication is far, far, far more vital to a marriage than sex, and too many marriages have the latter and neglect the former...

read Genesis

What, that God made Adam and Eve and they they got on with it "and it was good"? That's hardly a mandate; to conclude that sex is a requirement for marriage because of that is a stretch.

Unless you're pointing at something else.

[Radical Dreamer]

I dunno, I think communication is far, far, far more vital to a marriage than sex, and too many marriages have the latter and neglect the former...

Actually, I think it's safe to say a successful marriage (not taking into the account the exceptions of "asexual" marriages) needs a good amount of both.

[Peanut]

But a lot of this is Mosaic Law, so I don't think it necessarily applies that much now (for the same reason we eat shellfish, have no cloaks with tassels or whatever, and don't stone homosexuals). I will take a "strong support" as a suggestion and not a commandment if that's ok, and I won't feel bad for it for the same reason I don't feel bad for not selling all of my possessions and giving the proceeds to the poor, though that might be a bit of a stretch.

Well...not really...1 Corinithians 7:1-5 states:

" 1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

While this is not a command from Paul, the verse does suggest that it is in the nature of man to seek physicality within their relationships. I don't think a marriage will last very long if one individual is consistently refusing their spouse's requests to have sex and I think Paul would agree with me on this. In that situation, I think it would be hard for that individual to truly stay away from adultery. I do however think that this conversation has used a rather narrow definition of sexual activity. I think that a couple can not have sex in the consumation sense but still have an active sex life.

With all this being said, let me just say that in your case mina I don't think this verse should discourage, deter you from marriage or change you in any way at all. After all, if you find someone who does love you and really wants to be with you for the rest of their life and you don't hide your aseuxality from them, I would imagine that they would be fine with it. Marriage, after all, is not all about sex.

I dunno, I think communication is far, far, far more vital to a marriage than sex, and too many marriages have the latter and neglect the former...

While agree with this statement, I would like to say that I think after you have told someone that your body belongs to them and you will never have anyone else, that having sex with that individual alone is a powerful, non-verbal form of communicating your loyalty.

Anyway, back on topic...

Saphi, as long as you and your boyfriend don't let it lead to anything else, your not doing anything wrong by cuddling. However its good that you two are looking for other ways to express your affection so you avoid disobeying your parents. I hope everything works out for you two.

[Makachop^^128]

What, that God made Adam and Eve and they they got on with it "and it was good"? That's hardly a mandate; to conclude that sex is a requirement for marriage because of that is a stretch.

Unless you're pointing at something else.

I read what u said wrong lol
I thought u were saying u don't have to get married to have sex morally

[shooraijin]

Actually, I think it's safe to say a successful marriage (not taking into the account the exceptions of "asexual" marriages) needs a good amount of both.

Indeed.

[ShiroiHikari]

Yeah, Corrie. As a married person, I can say that you're absolutely right. Too much of one and too little of the other will cause problems eventually.

[Whitefang]

Sapphi,

It sounds to me like your parents are very responsible and caring. Allow me to offer some insight into their logic.

First, it is your parents' house, and they are still raising a family with young one(s). Whatever they deem appropriate, insofar as it is not dangerous or harmful, should be obeyed.

Second, having your door open is not a free pass to push boundaries. It is good to be open, but you should be open because you can handle the responsibility of being alone with your boyfriend, not because it is mandated. If it is too tempting to cuddle, you simply have no options other than not to be in your room (or any room with a bed) in the first place. I realize that physical contact is important, and while I may not have first hand experience of this, I am under the impression that it is important to you. Frankly, I have no advice on this as I've never had to deal with such emotions before, but maybe you need to think about why you need the physicality. Hopefully you can figure out a solution.

Third, whether you realize it or not, image is everything in this physical world. There are 2 results of following Christ. The first is an internal acceptance of His gift. The second follows naturally from this and we all have different degrees to which we are successful. This is the fruit that others see in us, and lends evidence to the case that we are followers of Christ. In order to have the biggest impact on the world, it is imperative that others see this fruit in you. This is true regardless of whether the person perceiving you values Christ-like virtues highly or lowly.

Hopefully you can see a little bit of your parents' logic now, but I'd understand if you can't. When you have children yourself, I imagine you will. You're young! You have a lot of time yet to be physical. You will undergo a lot of changes at least into your mid 20s, so don't be too serious with your boyfriend yet! Granted, that's easy for me, being single, to say but I still think it's good advice.

[animechica]

Second, having your door open is not a free pass to push boundaries. It is good to be open, but you should be open because you can handle the responsibility of being alone with your boyfriend, not because it is mandated. If it is too tempting to cuddle, you simply have no options other than not to be in your room (or any room with a bed) in the first place. I realize that physical contact is important, and while I may not have first hand experience of this, I am under the impression that it is important to you. Frankly, I have no advice on this as I've never had to deal with such emotions before, but maybe you need to think about why you need the physicality. Hopefully you can figure out a solution.

Well, it's not that it's *too* tempting, it's just very aggravating. And unfortunately, for us, our rooms are our sanctuaries. (At his house, at any given moment, there are usually stoners polluting the air in the living room, so that leaves sitting on the couch out.) I think it's also a matter of feeling restricted as far as what we can say to each other when others are around, because we're both people who like have private conversations, even just for the sake of keeping other people from seeing our full range of emotion. He used to be more like that than me, but I'm getting there too because of issues with parents... So yeah, most of the time the reason we're sitting on a bed is because there isn't a suitable couch available. In both our rooms, there is NO room for even a small couch, but my bed is a mattress on the floor, so I don't really mind sitting there to watch anime or just chat.

I think I honestly need the physicality because as a young teen I used to be incredibly anti-social and would discourage people from hugging me or showing other forms of positive physical contact. Even when I was little, I didn't make a lot of that kind of contact IIRC. I was one of those "I want to play by myself" little girls most of the time. Now actually opening myself up to someone, the act of cuddling is incredibly comforting and happy. Even when I have NO sex drive whatsoever (like when I'm on my period and having cramps... yuck) I still want to cuddle with him, and it's actually at that time when I love cuddling more than anything else because it feels so... I dunno, platonic, lol.

Anyway, I think my solution is simply deal with it, get on with my life, and get married as soon as possible (with college and work as a consideration, of course...). However I'm kinda wondering, if I move out of the house (like actually move out, not run away or anything), does the no cuddling rule still apply? I get nervous because I think the pastor of my church has said at least once that "Honor your father and mother" doesn't end when you leave home. For kids, that commandment usually means "Do what they say." but some people have told me that "honor" doesn't always equate "obey" and can mean "respect" as well.

But I'm still scared, because one time my mom even said "I don't want my grandkids saying butt." I was thinking "Okay... you can raise them, then..." XD I want to obey my parents because that's what God wants, but where does it end? X_X

[shooraijin]

Bluntly, it ends when you're out of the house. The way I see it, you're a free figure when you're under your own power. Until then, they do get a say even if you think it's arbitrary. I think Whitefang is correct.

As far as the obedience question goes, I've heard the 'respect' vs 'obey' argument, and I don't think there is anything about that that holds water. I've certainly never heard a Biblical justification for 'respect' over 'obey'; I'd like to know if there is one that is widely accepted. Clearly if your parents asked you to do something wantonly bad or immoral, or something self-harming like dive off a diving board into an empty pool, I think we should probably talk about that.

But, the way I see it, it's their house. You're 18, so it doesn't necessarily have to be *your* house anymore if you feel that their rulings are poorly grounded, if you get my drift.

[xblack_x_rosesx]

Ya mann, move out.

I mean, I lucked out and my parents gave me near absoulte freedom pretty much the day I turned 18 (Like, I could go out and party whenever I wanted, they just "prefered" I told them where I was), but like "under their roof" I still have rules I need to follow- like, my door has to be open if my bf's in my room with me, I'm not allowed cussing, watching inappropriate things, I still have to do chores, etc etc. But I mostly buy my own food, so that definitely helps them be more flexible about things cos I'm trying to take on more "responsibility".
I think the deal is I can live with them until August, when I go to University, but then if I EVER come to live with them again, I pay room and board and can do as I please in any sense.

I think since you're old enough to move out and... all that jazz, then maybe you should, because it IS their house, and it IS their family, and if they are uncomfortable with something you're doing you need to respect that, even if you think it's unfair.

[Tsukuyomi]

@Sapphi: Have you looked around apartments in your area ^^? Or, perhaps a friend that may be in need of a roommate ^^?