Am I understanding this right?

Postby **Momo-P** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:49 pm

Recently I was reading a passage in Habakkuk (1:13) and it talks about how God's eyes are too good to look at evil and how He cannot stand to see those who do wrong. While I do believe this is true and have no problem with it, it did make me begin to think...

There IS a difference between "fake evil" and "real evil", right? I mean, we all love anime and animation in general on these boards so I think you get where I'm taking this conversation. Although you may watch a show where a character does something terrible (like killing someone), it's kind of a different story than actually sitting there and watching someone really kill another person. The real person is real. Somebody is actually being hurt there. The fake person? How can evil even really be commited when they're not being hurt? The only bad part that could come out of that is if you're stupid enough to let it effect the way you think or something, but I believe most of us are sane enough to prevent that from happening.

Also, a huge part of comedy is failure and human sin. How many times do you watch comedies where someone will kill another person and act totally calm about it (which in turn makes you laugh because it's just so stupid and wrong)? Or how something terrible will be happening in the backdrop and nobody cares or notices? Or people will outright lie (Ahhh...your flashlight? I don't have it, um...go ask *sends them in the direction of an innocent person*) Real people being hurt and cheated is wrong, but a cartoon? I don't think...God really cares. The only reason we laugh about it is because it's so absurdly stupid. Either that or it's just SO WRONG if you look at it in the sense of "if it was a real person"

So...does any of this weird rambling make sense? Can someone please tell me if I'm understanding right here? Because otherwise this means you can't really watch a dang thing without having to look away constantly. Doesn't matter if it's an evil person committing evil, "you're letting your eyes look at evil" and that's wrong. Same deal if you were to write a story to make people laugh. If you wrote about somebody stealing another person's belongings (and the reasoning or way they went about it was funny), it wouldn't matter.

Am I just misunderstanding this passage?

Postby **Peanut** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:09 pm

Momo-P (post: 1299759) wrote:
So...does any of this weird rambling make sense? Can someone please tell me if I'm understanding right here? Because otherwise this means you can't really watch a dang thing without having to look away constantly. Doesn't matter if it's an evil person committing evil, "you're letting your eyes look at evil" and that's wrong. Same deal if you were to write a story to make people laugh. If you wrote about somebody stealing another person's belongings (and the reasoning or way they went about it was funny), it wouldn't matter.

Let me put it to you this way...if this verse was suggesting that you turn your eyes from all evil including things that are dipicted in literature, TV, etc... then I would argue that we shouldn't even read the Bible (or parts of it at least) since there are scriptures in there referring to rape, murder, and other horrible evil acts that God clearly frowns upon. In other words, there has to be a difference to some degree.

The passage is referring to an attribute of God, not a way in which we should necessarily act. It is true that we should avoid evil action, however this doesn't mean that we should shut isolate ourselves from the culture we live in because there is evil going on all around us. In fact I would argue that to be effective witnesses we have to be attatched to our culture to some degree. For instance, Paul used the unknown god while he was talking to the men in the meeting of the Areopagus as a starting point to tell them the gospel. I don't think he would have had the same effect in that situation had he not used something from their own culture.

Postby **Nate** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:17 pm

Momo-P wrote:How many times do you watch comedies where someone will kill another person and act totally calm about it

I can safely say I have never seen a comedy where someone murdered another person.

Postby **Peanut** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:22 pm

Nate (post: 1299770) wrote:I can safely say I have never seen a comedy where someone murdered another person.

Not a fan of dark commedies I take it?

Postby **Momo-P** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:07 am

Nate (post: 1299770) wrote:I can safely say I have never seen a comedy where someone murdered another person.

Well you almost act like I'm saying it in a super serious manner. A lot of Western comedies will have no problem having stupid scenes where somebody kills somebody for just...totally insane or dumb reasons. Or they'll go extremely over the top with the scene just to make you laugh for the "...what the heck?! XD" manner.

Probably the most known example (though I hate that show) would be South Park. Kenny getting killed in a number of ways was an on-going joke for years, whether he was killed by mistake or somebody went out of their way to do it to him.

Let me put it to you this way...if this verse was suggesting that you turn your eyes from all evil including things that are dipicted in literature, TV, etc... then I would argue that we shouldn't even read the Bible (or parts of it at least) since there are scriptures in there referring to rape, murder, and other horrible evil acts that God clearly frowns upon. In other words, there has to be a difference to some degree.

Ya, but isn't there a difference in reading something and actually watching something? I mean, I guess people can say "reading makes you visualize whatever you want and that can make the scene worse", but most of the time? If I read about somebody getting raped or whatever in the Bible, I don't exactly visualize it at all. Also it says He can't stand to see those who do wrong. Where as those things happened and you can't control it, you can totally control whether or not you watch a show where something bad happens.

Postby **Mr. SmartyPants** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:57 am

Momo, let's look at the underlying reasons as to why you desire to be correct and have consistent views. The Bible tells us to not worry and things like these.

So why is all this so important to you?

Postby **Shao Feng-Li** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:23 am

People do wrong all about you. One can't go out in public with their eyes closed. You couldn't even watch the news.

If watching a movie with a villain in it causes you to do villainous things, then no, you probably shouldn't watch it.

Postby **Momo-P** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:42 am

Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1299816) wrote:Momo, let's look at the underlying reasons as to why you desire to be correct and have consistent views. The Bible tells us to not worry and things like these.

So why is all this so important to you?

Because I guess when people bring up that passage about worry I feel it's not talking about this. That passage talked about what you'd have to eat for tomorrow or wear, not about worrying if you're following God as perfect as possible.

I'm not gonna lie, I love my shows. For the serious stories, I definitely don't watch them just to see something terrible happen, but sadly you do need some sort of evil and flaws to have a good story or for the characters to even be relatable. Comedy may not need that stuff for plot, but sheesh. What's more funny than people doing stupid things (and doing the wrong thing is obviously stupid)? My reasons aren't bad so I never worried before, but now there's the concern that perhaps it's still wrong. Like...even though the whole REASON it's a sin is gone (nobody's being effected by it since they're not real), they're still doing something that in real life would be wrong and that fact suddenly makes it wrong to even watch or enjoy.

I hope that made any sense, I'm worse at words when I try to even speak out loud. Sadly I know part of the reason I do this, I have OCD. Badly. Most people do it over cleaning or food or something, but no. I obsess over God, which to some extent is not bad, but trust me, there's hardly a day that goes by that I don't almost start crying because I can't stop worrying about something I read. I know I'll be forgiven even if I do screw up, but I don't wanna just say "well...I'll be forgiven!" and not watch what I say and do. I have to watch out. If I care, I have to.

Granted that results in me feeling like I can't enjoy life or anything I love anymore, but I just accept it because we're told life will be hard anyways...though it would be nice to keep watching something I like. I already have enough things in life it seems like I can't enjoy anymore, I don't wanna lose everything, especially since some of these things can occupy me and keep me from worrying even more.

Postby **Mr. SmartyPants** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:06 am

Was your OCD a clinical diagnosis?

Postby **Momo-P** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:13 am

Oh ya. Mom not only took out her nursing books just to prove it to me, but I went to the doctor and everything. I was even given medicine, but I hated it because it almost made me feel like I just didn't care at ALL anymore.

Postby **Mr. SmartyPants** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:16 am

I see. I didn't realize that (Oh and what kind of doctor diagnosed you? A mental health specialist or an M.D.?)

Anyway, I'm always wary of obsessing over God, as that can lead to religious legalism and then potentially deviate people from Christ's message of love. I imagine you've been tackling the root problem for many years (obsessive thoughts and compulsive behavior of religious certainty). If not, then perhaps it is a new trial for you to focus on?

I'm no therapist, so I can't really suggest you the best thing to do or "counsel" you or anything. XD

Postby **Momo-P** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:30 am

I believe it was an M.D., but I did go to a guy to talk to for awhile. He worked at the hospital and that was his job, talking about health disorders and junk (I have a cousin with OCD as well, she's younger and goes to one there). However, although mine is pretty bad, it really wasn't bad enough to warrant doing THAT. In the end I told my mom to just stop it because it didn't seem to do much either way and truthfully it has been about the same. My cousin on the other hand is much more extreme than I, so I can see why she has to go.

Also, as for being something new? Oh no, around 13 or so it really kicked in (which would be about the right time for these types of problems to show up in your body), so...ya. I've been obsessing over irritating things for years. And don't worry, I strongly try not to make up stupid human laws and stuff, I strictly stick to the Bible and try and find the right way, it's just sometimes (like here), I read something and worry so badly about doing the right thing I just can't enjoy my life anymore. I have to get an answer or it will drive me nuts...which is why I ended up making this.

I can sit down, I can pray, I can ask my parents opinions on the matter, etc. but it's like...I NEED to hear somebody else tell me if I'm right or wrong. I HAVE to. If I don't, I will just break down because I don't trust my own judgement. Like I said, I think I understand it right, I do believe the evil God wouldn't look at or approve of would be really doing it, but I don't think He actually cares about fake things, especially if it's done to teach or maybe make you happier. As long as you don't think something really happening is ok or good, but then again, how many people really do?

I suppose this whole mess also further explains why I do have to ask you guys so many questions. Personally I'd be happier just accepting my ideas (usually God gives me the right answer on my own), but like I said, if I don't get somebody to repeatively tell me "yes, this is right" and give me a reason why I'm right, I just...can't handle it.

My Writing.com Portfolio · Postby **EricTheFred** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:18 am

Nate (post: 1299770) wrote:I can safely say I have never seen a comedy where someone murdered another person.

Right. That's a clear challenge:
Arsenic and Old Lace
Little Shop of Horrors
Murder by Death
Someone is killing the great chefs of Europe
Every 'Pink Panther' movie

To Momo-P:
Jesus may have dined with a bunch of saints on Maundy Thursday, but you'll find many more places where he spent his time with sinners... including the aforementioned saints. He also told many stories in which his characters did wrong. Go leaf through the parables and see what I mean.

I think what matters here is a different passage also from the Bible (paraphrased off the top of my head version): "All things are legal, but not all things are helpful." It is how it affects you and those who take their example from you that determines whether you (or in some sorts of material like Hentai, whether anybody) should enjoy it.

Postby **minakichan** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:40 am

Oh snap don't make me break out the media studies philosophy.

I think this is kind of an eating-food-offered-to-idols case. There are bound to be denominations out there that say that partaking in any kind of secular media is sinful, but others say that there isn't a problem and that it might even be a good thing to make sure that one isn't stuck in a sheltered bubble.

Does that mean we can and should partake in any and all secular media? If it causes you or someone else to stumble, then no. A well-adjusted pacifist who struggles with sexual sin might be OK watching a violent movie, but he or she should avoid pornography at all costs. If watching someone get murdered in a comical way makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should avoid it.

Postby **Peanut** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:20 pm

Momo-P (post: 1299811) wrote:Ya, but isn't there a difference in reading something and actually watching something?

I'm pretty certain history would argue otherwise. I can't verify this, but I'm relatively certain that before visual forms of media (for instance TV or Movies) were in existence, people were arguing that individuals shouldn't read certain books because of their content.

Momo-P wrote:I mean, I guess people can say "reading makes you visualize whatever you want and that can make the scene worse", but most of the time? If I read about somebody getting raped or whatever in the Bible, I don't exactly visualize it at all.

But you are still exposed to an evil act and are still affected by it (in this case by not visualizing it). Isn't it reasonable to say then that if we are supposed to look away from evil then we should try and not even be exposed to it at all so that we are not affected by it negatively.

Momo-P wrote: Also it says He can't stand to see those who do wrong. Where as those things happened and you can't control it, you can totally control whether or not you watch a show where something bad happens.

Again, that verse is refering to a character trait of God not an action we should necessarily take...in fact if we tried to act like God in this situation then I think we would have to stop self-examining ourselves out of fear that we may look upon sin in our own lives and therefore see evil.

minakichan wrote:I think this is kind of an eating-food-offered-to-idols case. There are bound to be denominations out there that say that partaking in any kind of secular media is sinful, but others say that there isn't a problem and that it might even be a good thing to make sure that one isn't stuck in a sheltered bubble.

Does that mean we can and should partake in any and all secular media? If it causes you or someone else to stumble, then no. A well-adjusted pacifist who struggles with sexual sin might be OK watching a violent movie, but he or she should avoid pornography at all costs. If watching someone get murdered in a comical way makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should avoid it.

Quoted because this is my opinion when it comes to violence/language/other content in media. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "don't watch R rated movies," however this doesn't mean that some believers should watch R rated movies. If it causes you to sin (or if it even tempts you), you should probably avoid it...

Postby **Momo-P** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:13 pm

Well as usual, thanks for at least helping me out guys. I know I probably look like some crazy kid who keeps bothering you, but I'm still grateful somebody's patient enough to actually care about it... Also to spare you another thread, would it be bad enough if I asked one more thing while I have this here?

Just because I currently am in the old testament, can someone tell me...that whole "you should not mention the names of other gods, those names should never come from your lips" (I believe it's somewhere in Exodus 22 or 23), I mean...what's that about? I wanna say this is another "old testament only law", but didn't some prophets actually use the names of other gods before? Is the original wording actually different than the KJV?

I know I asked my pastor about this and he said it was refering to "don't sit around saying 'hey, what do you think about THIS god?'" and so on, but is that true? I mean, if it was, then why not actually say that? I guess I'm just a bit more rattled because it's God saying it here, not a human. I don't get why He'd say it that way unless He really didn't want people naming other gods. If that's the case though, what exactly would be the point? Besides telling the people not to save the quail and manna for the next day/get extra on the sixth day, I don't recall God making many laws simply on the grounds of "will you follow Me or yourself?" When God initiated that law, Israel totally did what He knew they would--saved their food and got worms and expected more on the seventh day. It made perfect sense to only make a law so He could teach them a lesson on trust. However, after that?

How many times after did God only make a law to see if they'd trust Him or do what He said? God loves us, He doesn't take things away from us if we can enjoy them and they won't hurt us. By this point especially, the "no god mentioning" law was grouped in with all the laws about servants, marriage, etc. So I REALLY can't see Him making it for issues of trust. My only guess would be because Israel was constantly running away from Him and He knew mentioning other gods would just be suicide, but...ehh...I've watched YGO, Hercules and other crap with "gods" in them and obviously this hasn't effected me. ^^;; And judging from this board, I think everyone else can speak the same. So was this only done because of Israel having loyalty issues? Is it really meant literally? Or is it one of those cases where, as long as it's not hurting you, it's ok? And before anybody says it, I mean hurting you as in mentally, physically, or spiritually. Those things that no matter what you do, will ALWAYS be bad for you and others (like the 10 commandments, sleeping with animals, relying on magic instead of God, etc.)

Postby **Peanut** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:05 pm

Bumped because I think I have the answer to this question...

Momo-P (post: 1300499) wrote:Just because I currently am in the old testament, can someone tell me...that whole "you should not mention the names of other gods, those names should never come from your lips" (I believe it's somewhere in Exodus 22 or 23), I mean...what's that about? I wanna say this is another "old testament only law", but didn't some prophets actually use the names of other gods before? Is the original wording actually different than the KJV?

I couldn't find the specific verse you were referring to however that shouldn't matter too much (I hope...). During the Old Testament period, especially around the time of Moses if I remember correctly, the name of a god was powerful. If you knew the name of a god and invoked it the belief was that you could control said god and get them to do what you want them to do. This is why in the Ten Commandments we find the command that says do not use God's name in vain. I think the verse you mentioned is refering to this practice of invoking a gods name in order to force them to use their powers and is therefore probably another warning against idolatry (I think). Hope that helped you out a bit...

Postby **Nate** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:19 am

Peanut wrote:If you knew the name of a god and invoked it the belief was that you could control said god and get them to do what you want them to do. This is why in the Ten Commandments we find the command that says do not use God's name in vain.

I have heard, I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that the original Hebrew meaning of that verse in the ten commandments is closer in meaning to "Do not pronounce the name of God." Like, ever. This is why we have the term "YHWH" (to avoid writing the name of God) and why modern Jews will on the internet write "G-d" instead of God.

Postby **Momo-P** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:35 pm

I couldn't find the specific verse you were referring to however that shouldn't matter too much (I hope...).

"You must not even say the names of other gods; those names must not come out of your mouth." Exodus 23:13

And while your explanation fits to some degree, at the same time, I don't get how the people back then would even come to such a weird conclusion. I mean, why would just saying a god's name (even if you were just mentioning them in passing) do anything? I mean, what if they were to say they hate that specific god? Their words would actually be good in that case, but it says not to say the names of other gods at all. Seeing how I don't care about the other gods people worship nowadays, that's not exactly a huge issue for me, but sometimes you WILL need to mention them depending on who you're speaking to (or what the subject is). What if you were speaking to a Hindu? You may actually NEED to say the names of their gods in order to discuss something with them.

Also in storybooks, the creators of those worlds don't believe such things exist, but it seems it doesn't matter. That even though they're fake, it's an evil sin. I could understand God saying it to prevent people from giving a second thought to the other religions around them, but I almost just worry if God may have made the law because He really doesn't want to hear the names of fake gods. Even if they are apart of a story...

Postby **minakichan** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:40 pm

I think it's a bit like the gouging-out-eyes-if-you-look-at-a-woman-lustfully thing-- a hyperbole that states the gravity of the situation. Sort of like saying "you shouldn't even be thinking of false gods; don't worship them-- don't even talk about them" sort of thing. If you're mentioning the name but with no intention to think of the god even favorably, it's probably OK.

Postby **Peanut** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:56 pm

Nate (post: 1301858) wrote:I have heard, I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that the original Hebrew meaning of that verse in the ten commandments is closer in meaning to "Do not pronounce the name of God." Like, ever. This is why we have the term "YHWH" (to avoid writing the name of God) and why modern Jews will on the internet write "G-d" instead of God.

I think that might actually have more to do with the fact that for a time, ancient Hebrew didn't use any vowels in it's writting (the YHWH part, I think you're right about the usage of G-d by modern Hebrews today...or it's something like "writting the word God is using God's name in vain" or something). As I remember, this is why we have other names for God like "Jehova" and the more modernly excepted "Yaheweh" (yeah...we aren't even 100% sure if that name was what was intended by YHWH...).

Now onto other things...Momo (and for anyone else whose interested) I'm going to try in the span of one post to teach you some techniques for analyzing scripture that I learned in my Biblical Hermenutics class. Based off the questions you've asked in this thread an some other threads I think if you applied some of these it could really help you.

Momo-P wrote:"You must not even say the names of other gods]

To start, you should always read the verse within the context it was written in. From what you've said, it sounds like you've already done this. It's important to remember that scripture wasn't originally written with most of the verses and chapters we are so used to (obviously Psalms and Proverbs are a little different, but even they didn't have chapter numbers or verse numbers untill much later). Sometimes it may be a good idea to read the entire book straight through without stoping.

Next, look at the verse in other translations of the Bible. Below I have written out how Exodus 23:13 as it appears in the NIV, New American Standard, The Message, NKJV, and Contemporary English Version:

NIV: "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips."

NAS: "Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth."

The Message: "Listen carefully to everything I tell you. Don't pay attention to other gods—don't so much as mention their names."

NKJV: “And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth."

CEV: "Make certain that you obey everything I have said. Don't pray to other gods or even mention their names."

As you can see, none of these translations are the same. This doesn't mean that one is better then the other, however what it does mean is that the Biblical languages are vastly different from English (for instance, Greek, Hebrew, and English do not have the same number of words in each of their respective languages). Because of these differences, somethings do get lost in translation.

Another thing that causes things to get lost in translation are the vast differences between today's culture and the culture that was in existance when the scriptures were written.

Momo-P wrote:And while your explanation fits to some degree, at the same time, I don't get how the people back then would even come to such a weird conclusion. I mean, why would just saying a god's name (even if you were just mentioning them in passing) do anything?

This brings me to my next point and that is to try your best to understand the text in it's cultural context. God wasn't speaking to these people with 21st century terms. God spoke to them in a way that they could understand culturally. In this case, while you may find it silly and even odd that a group of people thousands of years ago believed saying a gods name could invoke it's power, at the time this would have been completely normal (and in fact it was, look at 1 Kings 18:24 and the entire account of Elijah on the Mount Carmel. If the people of that day didn't believe they could get a god to act by using his name, then Elijah probably wouldn't have told them to call upon the name of Baal in that little competition).

So to truly grasp the meaning of the text we need to try and uncover what it meant at the time it was written. This will require some research (I'll take this time to note that how much research you do is up to you. You aren't necessarily writing a paper on this verse so there really isn't any reason for you to go diving into word studies or commentaries however if you want to...well then go ahead...). If you have access to a Study Bible, that will help tremendously. If not, Biblegateway.com is a great place to go for this information. Not only does it have some of the features that you would find in a Study Bible, under Additional Resources it also has a couple of free Biblical Dictionaries (good for looking up historical information and topics found within the Bible) which you can use along with some Commentaries (which give a writer's interpretation of most of the verses throughout the Bible) and other resources to aid in studying the Bible. And there is always Wikipedia which, while not being acceptable for scholarly papers, can still have good general information on the topic you are looking for...just don't put too much faith in the information you get from there.

Once you have understood the meaning of the verse in it's context, you figure out how you can apply it to your own life (obviously this is assuming that you can apply the meaning of the text to your own life...some verses you probably won't be able to apply nor really want to apply in your own life to be quite honest...). This I don't think you will have any problem with since, in general, today's church does a very good job of teaching how to do this.

Finally, if you are still confused about anything or just want to talk about what your reading don't be afraid to share your questions, comments, etc... with other believers. In the early Church the Bible was read purely in groups. While this is still practiced today, I often think that we don't do it nearly enough nor do we really try to have any meaningful conversations about what we are reading in which everyone is allowed to share their thoughts without the risk of being shot down.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Postby **Etoh*the*Greato** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:25 pm

Nate (post: 1299770) wrote:I can safely say I have never seen a comedy where someone murdered another person.

You never watched beerfest. I was shocked. Shocked!

Postby **Mr. SmartyPants** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:54 pm

Hooray John and his Hermeneutics skills!

Am I understanding this right?

Am I understanding this right?

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