Nudity!

Talk about anything in here.

Postby Sparrowhawk » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:53 pm

Shao Feng-Li (post: 1271170) wrote:While God did create Adam and Eve nude and there was no sin in it, we live in the world post Adam's fall. And God Himself had Adam and Eve covered.

While I do know that their is nothing inherently sinful about the human body, I think that the female form can be every bit artistic and adored with clothes. One's body is for her husband, not for strangers to be looking at.


That's where I stand, but I definitely wouldn't condemn people who draw nudity in a respectful way, because many artist believe that drawing nude helps understand the anatomy and therefore drawing ppl clothed, plust the fact that the body is beautifully created.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:08 pm

We have had, in all seriousness though, the conversation that DaVinci was both wrong and evil for painting naked bodies inside churches during previous discussions on this topic.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that that same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Postby Nate » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:09 pm

Kaligraphic wrote:I think your presence in this thread says everything that need be said.

OKAY LOOK AT LEAST I DID NOT POST IN THIS THREAD TWO MINUTES AFTER IT WAS MADE LIKE I COULD HAVE. >.>;;
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Postby Sakaki Onsei » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:35 am

In before the lock.
Hiyakawa Sayaka (my character from my writing) wrote:God has given me a gift, that I really don't know what to do with. I guess, all I can do is put it in his hands, keep my hands inside the car, and expect to end up destroying parts of Tokyo with my perfectly good guitar.


Revelation 1:10-11: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, [color="Red"]"Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches to Ephesus and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum and to Theyatira, and at Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."[/color]
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Postby Fish and Chips » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:17 am

Sakaki Onsei (post: 1271381) wrote:In before the lock.
No posting spam in a serious thread Sakaki, please.

I don't find nudity to be automatically sinful or immoral, necessarily, but how these things are conceived and perceived is important. Are you saying something about the human body? Or is it just a tease? There is nothing wrong with art for art's sake, but the artist usually has an excuse behind their medium. Even then, what does the audience think? You won't be able to second-guess all of them, and you certainly won't be able to please everyone. Some people can sit through blatant eroticism with only the passing interest of a spectator in the stands, whereas even the most Tactful and Tasteful artistic nudity will bother some of the rest.

Know your intent and your audience.
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Postby Sakaki Onsei » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:33 am

Fish and Chips (post: 1271386) wrote:No posting spam in a serious thread Sakaki, please.


Understood, though I would point out that the conversation seemed to be headed in a direction that may have had cause for concern. Hence a warning for those who wished to turn it into a soapbox to "check themselves before they wreck themselves".

Know your intent and your audience.


As has been stated many times, this is a very key point. If looking at this from a legal standpoint, I would suggest that anyone getting into this be willing to look at the Supreme Court case Miller vs. California (1973). That may also give a bit of help, if looking at things from a legal aspect.
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Revelation 1:10-11: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, [color="Red"]"Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches to Ephesus and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum and to Theyatira, and at Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."[/color]
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Postby Mave » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:20 am

rocklobster (post: 1271288) wrote:Well, I got something that may not sound good to all you people. I have a theory that we'll all be naked in Heaven.


Now you've gone and made me wonder if Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary wearing something or nothing. LOL

I absolutely can't predict how ppl will be impacted by naked images of my body [whether it's 1) recoiling in disgust, 2) being struck by awe of its beauty, 3) having lustful desires invoked or 4) reacting with complete indifference.] As it's impossible to be completely sure that my audience will have reaction #2 or #4 [think of the probability] I'd rather not chance anything. That's just my two cents.

I'm keeping my clothes on until I reach Heaven. XD
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Postby ChristianKitsune » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:36 am

well it seems you've already made up your mind... but here's my two cents.

I guess I wouldn't have a problem if I were like you know putting in models that I didn't even know...because that's so impersonal! But I don't know if I could ever use my own body for something like this... not for just a portfolio...and probably not ever... XD

But what if the art teacher is a total perv? And he/she sees these drawings and knows its you? What if he/she like...goes completely psycho and stuff? Or what if she/he's really struggling in some areas? Would you really want to be responsible for possibly making it worse for her/him? I mean gosh, what if your teacher looks at you and can't forget those images you placed in your portfolio?

Of course... that's a WORSE case scenario and you might get a really awesome art teacher who is okay with you drawing yourself. XD

But I'm a modest person (and I don't have a great visual body anyways... but I guess keep in mind what GOD would want you to do here. Would he want you to do this? That kind of thing...because it doesn't matter what WE want, ulltimately, it matters what HE wants..you know?

I think I wouldn't just draw nudes for your portfolio though... you might want a variety....

and like Puguni said... MAKE SURE ITS GOOD LIGHTINGGGG

I'm all for artistic nudity... I think the human body is something to be admired...because my gosh we are so complex! And I'm not just talking about whats on the outside... but to just draw nudes for nudes sake...it's just kinda weird IMHO. i mean I draw nudes to learn and to study...

So yeah! XD I don't know if I made any sense or not...
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Postby Prince Asbel » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:41 am

Etoh*the*Greato (post: 1271377) wrote:We have had, in all seriousness though, the conversation that DaVinci was both wrong and evil for painting naked bodies inside churches during previous discussions on this topic.


That's true. In fact, I think I was involved in that particular discussion, and it was other CAA members that got me to change my mind about that. :thumb::thumb:

My family sells stuff on the internet, and we sold a book that had a topless girl on the front. Now someone might say, "Well, why on earth would you sell a book like that? It has nudity in it!" But, the book happened to be an artbook about anatomy. So the cover was appropriate, and the book was NOT meant to be pornographic in any way.

Someone might still object, but then you might just as well make the argument that, "Why on earth would you want to own a knife? A knife can kill people!" Obviously we still own knives, so even the most conservative people inwardly recognize that motives are a big factor to consider in determining whether performing action X is morally permissible.

So really, I think several members hit the nail on the head when they've said that it has to be examined in case-by-case scenario. Like,

1. What is your personal reason and motivation for taking the pictures?
2. Who will have access to these pictures?
3. Who do you plan on showing these too?
4. Are the people you're showing them to interested in seeing them for purely artistic, non-sexual reasons?
5. If you give them to other people, can you trust them not to be foolish with them and post them on the net and/or show them to perverts or something?
6. Even if all the questions here are answered positively, does your conscience permit you to go ahead and do it?

That last question is really the crux of the matter. The Bible says that even if you can't see anything wrong with doing something, if your conscience still bothers you, it's a sin to go ahead and do it.

P.S. By the way, kudos to xblack_x_rosesx for asking what other people thought about this beforehand. :thumb:
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:12 am

Good man Asbel! Now if we can just have the same breakthrough with those DaVinci code guys another Leonardo's name will be unsullied once more!
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Postby xblack_x_rosesx » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:50 am

Well, ya.

I'll definetely do some heavy thinking about it before I do it, and I'll pray about it.
I was brainstorming ideas last night, out of curiosity for what could be done, and intitially I had some ideas that I absolutely loved. But I'm a hormonal teenager who is probably perverted, so I took a look at them again and thought "would I show these to my parents? my boyfriend, yes, my friends, yes, my teachers, yes, but not my parents."

So I reworked some ideas, and I came up with some themes that seemed right.

Initially it had been artistic nudes. They were classy, they were good.

But then I started working it from a point of worship, like how someone who allows themselves to be completely vulnerable to God's will would be. It's metaphorical, of course, but I think I'm getting on the right track with this kind of thing.
My gut is telling me it's ok as long as I have some kind of pure and thought out theme behind it.
I mean, I like to be naked. I hate clothing, it makes me want to go pyro on the universe. But I really need to think about how I'd portray myself.

I don't think nudity is a sin in most sense, I mean, many cultures of people, even civilized people, didn't wear clothing. I think people wrongly assosiate nudity with sex though, and it's not something that I assosiate in my mind. For me, nudity means freedom and trust, and vulnerability and openness. I think the body is beautiful, and I just want to be able to express that in a way that's a little more widely accepted then me becoming a nudist =P
Which I'm willing to bet I'll become for a phase sometime XP. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Bottom line is, it's not sexual, it's not meant to be perverted or capture attention in an undesirable way.
It's just my way of communicating something that people don't want to understand.

IF that makes sense.. =\
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:58 pm

xblack_x_rosesx (post: 1271449) wrote:Well, ya.

I'll definetely do some heavy thinking about it before I do it, and I'll pray about it.
I was brainstorming ideas last night, out of curiosity for what could be done, and intitially I had some ideas that I absolutely loved. But I'm a hormonal teenager who is probably perverted, so I took a look at them again and thought "would I show these to my parents? my boyfriend, yes, my friends, yes, my teachers, yes, but not my parents."

So I reworked some ideas, and I came up with some themes that seemed right.

Initially it had been artistic nudes. They were classy, they were good.

But then I started working it from a point of worship, like how someone who allows themselves to be completely vulnerable to God's will would be. It's metaphorical, of course, but I think I'm getting on the right track with this kind of thing.
My gut is telling me it's ok as long as I have some kind of pure and thought out theme behind it.
I mean, I like to be naked. I hate clothing, it makes me want to go pyro on the universe. But I really need to think about how I'd portray myself.

I don't think nudity is a sin in most sense, I mean, many cultures of people, even civilized people, didn't wear clothing. I think people wrongly assosiate nudity with sex though, and it's not something that I assosiate in my mind. For me, nudity means freedom and trust, and vulnerability and openness. I think the body is beautiful, and I just want to be able to express that in a way that's a little more widely accepted then me becoming a nudist =P
Which I'm willing to bet I'll become for a phase sometime XP. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Bottom line is, it's not sexual, it's not meant to be perverted or capture attention in an undesirable way.
It's just my way of communicating something that people don't want to understand.

IF that makes sense.. =\

It made sense to me ^_^

Heck, I'd go naked too if I could, but it's been soooooooo cold lately @___@

I'm glad you thought about it as much as you did :) Just keep thinking about it, and dont' dismiss any doubt :)
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:00 pm

I think people wrongly associate nudity with sex . . .


Huh. I thought nudity was the default state for sexual activity. Also, I wonder then why the vast, vast majority of people are sexually aroused by viewing healthy members of the opposite sex nude.

I understand what you mean about associating nudity with freedom, trust, vulnerability, and openness, though - I think it can signify these things, and it can be very beautiful when it does so. However, the sexual association with nudity has its basis in physiology - we're wired that way for the most part. I don't think God screwed up when he made us that way - do you?

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Postby animechica » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:27 pm

Quite honestly, I share much of the "nudity is not sex" opinion, however the only person I would really want to share any naked photos with would be my husband. And I'm not saying I have one, I'm just saying WHEN I got married, haha.

I think this because there are WAY too many perverts out there. If I photograph myself purely to display the beauty God's creation, I don't believe I have done anything wrong, HOWEVER there are people who would view those photos with a different intent. And if there's one thing I don't like to think about, it's the idea that somewhere, somehow, someone I might not even know is masturbating while thinking about me. O_O

I guess I could sum my thoughts up like this: Once I made a joke about posing nude for an art class and my boyfriend immediately said, "Don't do that! I would be really jealous." Plus, even if I did take artistic nude pictures, I couldn't show them to him, because I know they would make him lust. That's not a stab at him, that's just how it is.

Soo... please think really carefully about your photos. I'm all for artistic expression, but even if your motives are 100% pure, you might unwittingly be leading a bunch of "sheep to the slaughter" as they say. ._.
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Postby Lilac#18 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:24 pm

rocklobster (post: 1271288) wrote:Well, I got something that may not sound good to all you people. I have a theory that we'll all be naked in Heaven.


Actually, I read this book titled 6 Big Big Big Angels, which is a real story about a little girl having a heaven trip. she saw everyone wearing robes of various colors each with a crown. the book was writen by her grandmother.
my grandmother read various books about people with heaven experiences.
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Postby xblack_x_rosesx » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:10 pm

Awe...

dewd... I'm not so sure anymore. I mean, I don't want people to think lustfully after it.

What if I pose with Jesus? I think people would feel weird masturbating to a naked chick hugging a crucifex.

=\
In all seriousness though...
I KNOW my boyfriend would go at that, because he's not christian and stuff, so he wouldn't see anything wrong with lust after a photograph...

Gah... DILEMMA.
I'll just pray on it some more.
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:16 pm

Simple question that may sound really dumb.. How do you feel? What do you think? Without any influence from others ^__^?

I kinda think no matter what the true intent is.. It's always going to be turned inot something else u_u Seems to be the pattern with everything >_>
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Postby xblack_x_rosesx » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:20 pm

Well, you know what then.

TO HECK WITH EVERYONE ELSE!

I know what I want it to be, I know what I expect it to be, all that jazz.

I'll just hunt anyone who thinks otherwise down and gut them. ^_^ XP
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:25 pm

xblack_x_rosesx (post: 1271491) wrote:Well, you know what then.

TO HECK WITH EVERYONE ELSE!

I know what I want it to be, I know what I expect it to be, all that jazz.

I'll just hunt anyone who thinks otherwise down and gut them. ^_^ XP


As corny as this sounds, just listen to your heart and ignore NOTHING ^__^ Both assurances and doubts ^_^

Greatest of luck (you know what I mean) with everything :)
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Postby xblack_x_rosesx » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:24 pm

Yeah =] ^_^

Thanks!
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Postby ADXC » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:07 pm

Id post my opinion in this thread, but like Nate, I'll just stay quiet on this and you can ask God whether you think it's right. Consult Him through prayer and through His word. That's all my advice.
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:27 pm

I can't emphasize thinking this over. Make sure you're not giong to regret it in the long run. No matter how long that run may be <_>

(Hopes that makes sense ^_^)
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Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:30 pm

Er... what?
Don't listen to your heart, listen to God's heart and his word.
For that you need to listen.
I'd advise against doing anything involving nudity (except in marriage) :thumb:
Definitely pray about it and LISTEN for what God has to say.
You could easily be inviting unwanted attention.
Whatever you decide, choose wisely.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:26 pm

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Postby xblack_x_rosesx » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:46 pm

[quote="Warrior 4 Jesus (post: 1271547)"]
I'd advise against doing anything involving nudity (except in marriage) :thumb:
QUOTE]


Good call there. =P

-punches Stephen and his silly Murderface and Rockso avater in the... erm... face-

Well, regardless.
I won't do it for a good long while. I was just making sure I gave myself lots of time to think about it. It wouldn't be for a solid 6 or 7 months at least.
And hey, who knows, maybe it's just a phase that'll pass by then.

Or I could just a nudist screaming to get out.

Like I said (I gotta make this joke twice, I'm sorry) if it does go down, I'll be sure to get you all a copy ;P
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Postby termyt » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:07 am

The absence of clothing in the Garden of Eden would imply He created us to be naked all the time and not just during procreation.

Being sexually aroused is as much a mater of self control as it is about any out-side conditions. I don't know if I am typical or a total perv, but I have been aroused by some fully clothed women and not aroused at all by some naked ones.

That's the big reason behind the head-to-toe burkas. Any hint or flash of skin might cause arousal so women should cover their entire body – even its very shape – so men don’t have to have any self control. Even then, I guarantee it does not work. What is hidden can be even more titillating.

The point is, no matter how you show yourself, there is a risk of someone taking it the “wrong” way. The impression you will leave on your intended audience is important and needs to be considered, but I would not let a bunch of worst case scenarios keep you for doing anything.

And, for the record, of an ugly person is comfortable with their body, then so be it. Potential Sexual Repulsion is even less of a reason than Potential Sexual Attraction to refrain from non-provocative nudity. I’m sure it was in jest, but saying, “since I am good looking I can pose nude when it isn’t sexual but that ugly guy should under no circumstances even be nude in public” supports the notion that all nudity is sexual.
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Postby Nate » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:49 pm

*turns serious now*

termyt is absolutely correct. In fact, Adam and Even didn't even know they were naked until they ate the fruit. This means had all gone according to plan, we'd all be naked, but we wouldn't know we were. Then they ate the fruit, and felt shame. First thing they did was create some makeshift clothes.

This says a lot to me, because there wasn't anyone else around to see them, and they were already "husband and wife," and yet they still felt shame. This tells me that rather than being worried about making others lust, or whatever, that they instead felt vulnerable.

It's the same reason why when you dream that you're naked at school, it's embarassing, even if you consider yourself attractive. You feel defenseless. You feel weak. Everyone is laughing at you.
I thought nudity was the default state for sexual activity.

Nudity is the default state for sexual activity, but that doesn't mean nudity = sex. Just because you're naked when you have sex, doesn't mean that they're interchangeable.

A car needs an engine to run, but the engine isn't the car.
Also, I wonder then why the vast, vast majority of people are sexually aroused by viewing healthy members of the opposite sex nude.

The vast, vast majority of people are sexually aroused by viewing healthy members of the opposite sex fully clothed too. I know termyt already said that, but I wanted to repeat it for emphasis. If a girl is attractive, I'll be aroused by her if she's clothed OR naked. It really doesn't matter. If she was naked it'd just leave less to my imagination, kind of like, if you look at a paint by numbers picture, you can still see the picture if it isn't painted, you just kind of have to use your imagination to know what it looks like. Painting it just helps.
The point is, no matter how you show yourself, there is a risk of someone taking it the “wrong” way. The impression you will leave on your intended audience is important and needs to be considered, but I would not let a bunch of worst case scenarios keep you for doing anything.

^This this this X 1,000,000.

You could do the most inoffensive thing you can think of and I guarantee you it would offend somebody somehow. All this talk about "If it offends someone don't do it!" is all well and good. I'm not going to sit here and say Christians should do what they want and to hell with what others think.

What I AM saying is that what others will think or do in response is good to consider, but it shouldn't be what makes our decisions for us. Look at C.S. Lewis. You know when he wrote the Narnia series, he knew full well many ultra-conservative Christians would say "He wrote a story with magic and portrayed Jesus as an animal, that means he's evil and his books should be burned!" Should that have stopped him from writing them, just because a bunch of people would be offended by it? Nope.

Have even Christians fallen into the "no personal responsibility" trap? It's so common in the real world, when somebody murders, or steals, or rapes...it's not my fault! I had bad parents! I went to a bad school! These twinkies I ate did it! These video games I played are the cause! I watched a violent movie!

Are we now in the same boat? It's not my fault I lusted, it's all her fault for being attractive! It's her fault for taking artistic photos! It's her fault for bending over to pick up a quarter she dropped!

NO. It is NOT her fault. Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. From James. Emphasis mine. If you sin, it's not someone else's fault. It's YOUR fault, and nobody else's BUT your fault. Take some personal responsibility. Also remember the first part of that verse, God won't allow anyone to be tempted beyond what they can handle. So if someone takes nude photos and you see them, that means you SHOULD be able to resist that temptation. If you can't, it's still not that person's fault, it's YOUR fault for not resisting like you should be able to.

It's easy for me to say this, but as everyone here knows, I struggle with lust. A LOT. Like probably more than anyone here. I'm not trying to sound like I'm on a high horse or playing holier-than-thou. Because I'm worse than most of you and I fall to a lot of temptations I should be able to resist. I'm just saying, how other people interpret what we do is nice to consider, but shouldn't be the final word.

One last thing. We all know that above all else, God looks at intent. This is why if you call your brother a fool, it's as bad as murder. The intent is the same. This is why if you say "Forget you" to somebody, it's as bad as "F*** you" to God. The intent is the same.

So why are you taking these pictures? You are taking them for artistic purposes, you have said. I think God will honor that intent. He won't be offended by it because your intent is good. I mean if you were posing for a smut magazine, then the intent would not be good, and I would say no, definitely not. If someone else sees these pictures you intended for decent purposes and gets off on them, that's their problem, not yours, and it shouldn't prevent you from doing what you decide to do (assuming you feel God is leading you to do it).

Now to be less serious.
Warrior 4 Jesus wrote:I'd advise against doing anything involving nudity (except in marriage)

No showering until I'm married? You got it buddy!
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Postby Zarn Ishtare » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:27 pm

Nate (post: 1271373) wrote:I have a feeling I should not say anything in this thread. At all.


You are most likely correct.







Eh...Not a large fan of artistic nudity, but that comes from my love of Cubism and "Expression" paintings, rather than any moral objection.
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We are all as we appear
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Nothing is beauty, nothing's feeling
Blood where there once was a soul
So I ask you, prove yourself
Make me believe that you are whole
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Postby xblack_x_rosesx » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:12 pm

Meh...

So...
Dilemma 2:

I'm getting a tattoo of a pinup girl on my side (under my ribs). Its a girl with her legs in the air, and shes on the phone. Super cute, super pretty.

BUT, I was all "... pinups are... well... purely meant for sexual expression."

So, is it wrong that I really like pinups? I mean, I think the girls are gorgeous, and I think it's a beautiful way to express their bodies... so... uhm..

Am I wrong in my thinking?
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Postby chibiphonebooth » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:25 pm

how long have you been thinking about getting that tattoo? i mean, don't get me wrong, i love tattoos and i'm getting one myself- but that's going to be on you forever. would you want a girl with her legs in the air on your body for the rest of your life?

i think pin ups are pretty cool, but i dunno if i would want it on my body.
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