Vatican Says...

[ashfire]

The Chief astronomer of the Vatican says it does not contradict faith in God if you want to believe in alien lifeforms on other planets.
This was in the news Tuesday.

[Technomancer]

Of course, it shouldn't have been news, except for some woefully ignorant reporters. There isn't even a "Vatican says" to this story. Basically, Funes' remark was an excert from a much more wide ranging interview that some reporter thought was somehow earthshaking. In reality, the Church has been fairly progressive on scientific issues like these. It does not have a problem with evolution, the big bang or, as we see here, life on other worlds. These are positions that the Church has held for decades (okay, I don't think anyone has seriously considered extraterrestrial life), and yet it's treated as news!

[animewarrior]

and your point is?? lol jk jk I guess I don't think that it's a bad thing to believe in other planets or lifeforms or anything....and considering that this is in the Goof Off thread...I'm not sure if I even believe you.... lol XD

[Warrior4Christ]

Define "alien lifeforms". Are they of approximately equal or greater intelligence compared to us?

[minakichan]

The Vatican has a "chief astronomer?" o_O

Do they have chief physicists, chief aeronautical engineers, chief biochemists, and chief interior decorators as well?

[Tyrel]

Yup, they do.

But seriously, the Catholic Church is right. Anyone here read C.S.Lewis' The Silent Planet Trilogy?

The idea is basically that life evolves, and God still to be given glory. If there are other lifeforms out there, does that contradict the revelation which we have kept in the Church? No, it does not. In fact, we might be surprised to find that God has given them truth as well. Of course, this is all stipulation, but of course the Vatican was right to say that. I can't see how a Christian can rightly get away with saying God could not have created life elsewhere as evolved as us, which is equally in the fullness of his image. Seems rather ethnocentric to me.. or maybe Geocentric

[Technomancer]

The Vatican has a "chief astronomer?" o_O

Do they have chief physicists, chief aeronautical engineers, chief biochemists, and chief interior decorators as well?

Since the earlier part of the twentieth century, the Vatican has maintained the pontifical academy, which is largely a body of priest-scientists who advise the pope on scientific matters. The first head was Fr. Georges Lemaitre, who developed the big bang theory. The Vatican also runs an observatory: http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VO.html

[Tyrel]

Since the earlier part of the twentieth century, the Vatican has maintained the pontifical academy, which is largely a body of priest-scientists who advise the pope on scientific matters. The first head was Fr. Georges Lemaitre, who developed the big bang theory. The Vatican also runs an observatory: http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VO.html

Yup. Can't help but be inspired and impressed with Rome again and again as I study my faith out more seriously.

[ChristianKitsune]

I knew my little sister was real!

[Tsukuyomi]

Ooooooh, I remember this article ^^ Roy showed it to me ^^ I think.. why not ^__^ We don't know what's out there right? Who's to say God didn't create other beings besides us ~(O_O)~

[Syreth]

Of course, they had a hay-day about this topic on Coast to Coast AM. I think the reporter probably realized that this quote would probably cause quite a stir in the community of people who are obsessed with the extraterrestrial (and it did, as far as I can tell from the radio). XD I just find it kind of amusing.

[Gabriel 9.0]

I believed in and accepted the notion of other life and other worlds before the RCC even mentioned this in that report:P, because God created them as well and they remain un-fallen. Its also mentioned in the Holy Bible. Here is some examples from the KJV Bible:

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Revelation 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

These last three scriptures definitely show that not only Angels of the Lord inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven. not starting a debate, only posting a little bit of what is in the Bible regarding other created creatures and planets of God.

[EricTheFred]

I know others have alluded to it, but this has been the position of the Catholic Church (as well as several other Christian bodies) for a long time. In fact, I think it was the last Pope Paul that set the policy, but it may be even farther back.

[Technomancer]

Farther back really. There was a certain tacit understanding that these ideas weren't necessarily theologically problematic. This is why, for example, priests like Lemaitre and de Chardin were able to do the research they did. This idea however, was not clearly made official until 1950 with Pius XII's encylical De Humani Generis, which spelt out in part, the Church's response to these ideas. One could also credit Leo XIII with having laid the groundwork for this by ressucitating Thomism in the late 19th century.

[EricTheFred]

You're right. I confused Pius XII with Paul VI.

[ShiroiHikari]

[quote="Gabriel 9.0 (post: 1226616)"]I believed in and accepted the notion of other life and other worlds before the RCC even mentioned this in that report:P, because God created them as well and they remain un-fallen. Its also mentioned in the Holy Bible. Here is some examples from the KJV Bible:

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[Shao Feng-Li]

It does not have a problem with evolution, the big bang

So its science is bunk anyway...?

I find no Biblical evidence for life on other worlds either. I don't really think it's wrong to think that their might be though. I'm 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% certain there isn't.

Every iota of Creation fell with Adam. That would include the universe.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Let's not forget it was actually a Catholic clergyman who came up with the Big Bang (or as he actually called it, the Big Noise.)

[Nate]

So its science is bunk anyway...?

HMMM.

Cosmology Debates - Unfortunately, after too many creation/evolution debates, this is no longer a topic allowed for discussion at CAA.

Technomancer was merely stating the stance of the Church, not opening up the thread for discussion on that subject. I'm vastly tempted to say more but I'd rather this thread not have to be locked.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I have no idea what he's trying to say there either. XD I guess he interprets the angels in the Bible as aliens? I have no idea. Besides you can't just take everything the Bible says at face value anyway. For example,
[quote="Numbers 23:22"]God brought them out of Egypt]
That must mean that unicorns are real! :O

Except no, it's a translation error.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Oh... Been a while since I've read the rules.

A unicorn might have been real. Just not as a horse thing with a horn on it's head. A narwhal whale comes to mind...

[Gabriel 9.0]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Well the first verse shows God created other planets. While that shows that it is possible God created other beings. He did create angels, then there is the exception of those creatures described carrying his throne in Ezekiel.

[Tyrel]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

He's saying that his interpretation of the Scriptures, particularly in the book of revelation, is that the beasts and other creatures, must be extraterrestrial. I really don't agree with his exegesis, but we've already discussed it the minute he posted it.

So its science is bunk anyway...?

I find no Biblical evidence for life on other worlds either. I don't really think it's wrong to think that their might be though. I'm 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% certain there isn't.

Every iota of Creation fell with Adam. That would include the universe.

As far as Creation falling with Adam... well.. that's a particularly YEC idea. Not trying to get into a debate here, but I really do invite a PM if you would like. I'm just pointing out that saying "all creation fell with Adam" is only going to appeal to those Christians who are young earth creationists.

In any case, the point in the thread should be this; This really isn't news.

Something to think about though; If extraterrestrial life is evolvable to the conscious level where it attains a level of divinity realizing by it's nature the image of God metaphysically, then can not more life here evolve in such a manner? If this did occur, what would that mean? I just mean to push out thoughts, not arguments. Just something interesting to consider... wouldn't that make the subject of HyperPreterism more interesting?

[QtheQreater]

Sounds like the reporter expects a change of creed.

"And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. And we may or may not believe in extra terrestrials, but we affirm their possibility..."

[Nate]

A unicorn might have been real. Just not as a horse thing with a horn on it's head. A narwhal whale comes to mind...

XD Narwhal. I'm sure the Hebrew people would've known what that is. :p

Nah, what I've heard is that the "unicorn" in the KJV version of the Bible is actually a type of ox. When viewed from the side, because of the position of the horns, it would make it look like the ox only had one horn. And I mean it makes sense, because the saying is usually "as strong as an ox," because oxen are pretty strong. In fact the NIV might just translate it as "ox." Lemme see...

And yep, "unicorn" becomes "wild ox" in the NIV.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I don't think "worlds" means "planets"...

Sure. The general idea what something that could appear to have one horn, so...

[Gabriel 9.0]

Worlds are planets Shao, I mean come on, God has allowed us to discover nearly 400 billion or so already. And 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe.
This universe the Lord has created is very, very large

Anybody can correct me if I'm wrong.
look at our heavenly brothers the Angels of the Lord, they are not of this Earth. Yet they were created By God.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I think there'd be more than one verse (outside of Revelation...) on the subject then.

I don't think that would mean they live on another planet...

[Nate]

Without stating whether or not I believe extraterrestrials exist, I will say this:

I mean come on, God has allowed us to discover nearly 400 billion or so already. And 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe.
This universe the Lord has created is very, very large

And just because it is extremely large does not mean that there has to be life out there somewhere. God may have created so many galaxies in order to show us His awesome and magnificent power, and for no other reason.

I'm not saying there definitely is not life on other planets. Merely that you cannot simply say just because there are so many, that there is definitely life on one of them.

[Tyrel]

Worlds are planets Shao, I mean come on, God has allowed us to discover nearly 400 billion or so already. And 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe.
This universe the Lord has created is very, very large

Anybody can correct me if I'm wrong.
look at our heavenly brothers the Angels of the Lord, they are not of this Earth. Yet they were created By God.

Hrm.. I just wonder if the angels are those who are created as beings within the natural order, or if they were created primarily as creatures of heaven. Heaven is not a place, it's a state. In other words, the Angels are metaphysical, and have no restrictions as far as the physical world's boundaries. I don't think we need interpret that the angels are on another planet. Did Gabriel need a rocket ship to Tell Mary about Jesus?

On that though.. what if angels are past races God has redeemed, and they live in heaven to continually see God's creating process? If God creates, why would we assume an eternal God would only do it once? I don't know, I'm totally just throwing out thoughts so that we avoid an argument, and maybe even inspire ourselves to think outside of the box a little. It's fun sometimes.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

400 billion and the odds of any of them containing life close to ours is Eh... extremely low. Odds are in favor of some kind of life being out there somewhere, but complex life...? Well, we probably won't find it in our time if we're really on a limited time.