Christian Spins on Legends

[MasterDias]

The fact remains that sorcery, where sorcery refers to extraordinary acts/powers acquired by appealing to supernatural forces other than God, are sinful. A character could technically possess them, but they would be sinning by using them. Most if not all fantasy sorcerers would fall into this category.

In the real world perhaps, but most if not all fantasy is set in a world vastly different from reality.
The whole idea of a "Christian sorcerer" requires some thought.

Omega Amen had a pretty good idea although mutant powers aren't really fantasy or mythical.

[Omega Amen]

Omega Amen had a pretty good idea although mutant powers aren't really fantasy or mythical.

Yes, exactly, I was offering an alternative as you can tell by my previous post.

I have noticed that the discussion on the Christian sorceror was debated in the context of a fantasy/mythological world.... I was wondering if there could be more of a modern sci-fi twist to it.

If it is too hard to pull off a fantasical or mythical world to work with the Christian sorcerer, one could place sorcery within an unknown scientific realm of investigation. (See my X-Men Storm convert example in that same post.)

I guess I like to see moral dilemmas in stories, and by gauging cbwing0's reactions through this thread... I am worried that the mutant method might be too conciliatory. If the conflict is not large or controversial enough, I will consider the story personally a little too.... I don't know how to say it. I would react, "Oh... so what?" and personally lose interest. I go by the philosophy that good stories have conflicts hard to resolve, whether external or internal, and in this case, I see the Christian sorcerer should ideally have both. In other words, the mutant route might be too easy.

Of course, I have spent my time the past four years trying to read up on technical articles and textbooks on computer engineering rather than the art of a story or novel, and my story philosophy probably sounds ridiculous....

Anyway, I think I have said enough on this for now.

[cbwing0]

Of course, I have spent my time the past four years trying to read up on technical articles and textbooks on computer engineering rather than the art of a story or novel, and my story philosophy probably sounds ridiculous....

On the contrary: what you are saying follows an old and well-established tradition in literature (first name by Hegel). According to this interpretation, a true tragedy involves a conflict between two goods, rather than a simple conflict between good and evil. Thus, the "Christian sorcerer" might have to choose between using magic to save a life, and disobeying God by using that magic. I agree that this would be an interesting conflict, but it would have to be emphasized that the use of sorcery was in itself a sin.

The point I am trying to make is that sorcery is not compatible with Christianity. However, as with any sin, a Christian could commit it and still remain a Christian; but he would not be acting in a Christian manner at the time he committed the sin. Therefore, someone could not be properly termed a "Christian sorcerer," as that implies that the individual's identity consists of two fundamentally opposed terms.

Of course, if you are writing a fantasy story in which God does not exist, or there are many gods, the problem disappears.

[Icarus]

To EireWolf, the Belgariad rocks. My favorite character is Silk.

And commenting on what Omega said, I find it rather ironically amusing that Nightcrawler studied to become a Catholic priest [spoiler=Late issues of X-Men]when it is revealed in recent issues that he truly is "demon spawn." [/spoiler]

[uc pseudonym]

I was aware of this irony before I made the initial post. "The Fall" was the work I was skimming through, and I saw the statement that the writing belonged to Uncreative Pseudonym. I quickly made the connection, and my parenthetical statement was intended to show (probably unsuccessfully) that I recognized the underlying amusement.

Under ordinary circumstances, this attempt would have been successful. However, when communicating by electronic means, I've found I cannot assume anything about the intelligence of others. For example, even my "How to Write Quality* Fanfiction" (an extremely satirical essay) has been taken seriously. I'm very pleased that you did understand, and in this context, your parenthetical statement was effective.

About the Christian sorceror issue, which this thread has leaned toward, I will merely say that I support and generally use a world mechanics system in which "magic" is merely an arcane science.

Michael... recently you've posted several spam-esque messages. Just as a general warning, try to contribute, especially in a discussion such as this one.

[EireWolf]

To EireWolf, the Belgariad rocks. My favorite character is Silk.

And commenting on what Omega said, I find it rather ironically amusing that Nightcrawler studied to become a Catholic priest [spoiler=Late issues of X-Men]when it is revealed in recent issues that he truly is "demon spawn." [/spoiler]

Yes, Silk is really cool. He has some moral issues of his own to work out, ne?

I was fascinated by the character of Nightcrawler in X-Men (the 2nd movie). I didn't know about that spoiler, but it does make sense, after some of the things he said in the movie... Storm seemed rather fascinated by him too, which is interesting in light of what someone else said, about her following a nature religion.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Michael"]Which came first,

[ShiroiHikari]

Wow, this thread is really, really interesting...Can't believe I missed it. *keeps watching.*

[uc pseudonym]

Technomancer I'm hoping you weren't serious about the evolution thing. right?

Jedi Motion: You will not answer this question. No one will answer this question. No one will respond to this question. Volt will forget he asked this question.

The issue is closed, gentlemen. Let's keep this thread on topic. If you absolutely must, use pm.

[Mave]

I'm a party pooper in this thread...but my approach towards this is using the wonderful "EX"

Christian ex-demon
christian ex-werewolves
Christian ex-sorcerer
Christian ex-vampire

Ex or "formally", anything that indicates a "change" in an individual. I like fantasy to a certain level and if I ever treaded in the elements stated above, I would adamantly restrict myself as an artist and story-teller to the following stands:

1) Demon, werewolves, sorcerer, vampires, witches are not "good" and never will be portrayed otherwise by me. I don't want my audience to be sympathetic or desensitize to the dangers that the Bible warns us of
2) Becoming a Christian FREES you from the powers that hold these characters. Losing these powers or characteristics will never be portrayed as bad, foolish or weak by me. Hey, I would love to be freed from the curse of drinking blood or turning into something hairy at full moon. And Jesus heals and frees us if you accept His Lordship and follow him. How can one keep their powers and profess their faith at the same time? It just doesn't work for me and I'm not going to even try to make it work.

I strongly believe in indicating "change" and the "irreconcilability" (is there such a word?) of christian and secular terminology.

I have written fantasy before (long before I became more dedicated to God). Now that I look back at my stories, I decided that I would have to kill MY own flesh (ouch!) in order to give a Christian spin to my old fantasy stories. My characters would all have to lose their powers, just as Kim Yong in my webmanga, KingdomCome, gave up his career, money, fame and treasures of the world (which is worthless, biblically). Sure, the world is going to mock it and say, "Sheesh, it's so not cool to lose these powers/world's riches." I'll probably lose a lot of audience as a manga artist (if I ever become one) and will never become popular or make money. But, my goal is to please God, not please man.

Interesting discussion here.

[SwordSkill]

interestinger and interestinger. lol.

my approach would be problematizing through roots, i guess. vampires, werewolves, and sorcercers, and those that go bump in the night...i think it would be safe to assume that they all originated from pagan sources (otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion at all). but then don't we also celebrate Christmas, which actually used to be pagan celebration that was "Christianized" only by Constantine? we even celebrate Easter, which was originally a day that was set aside to glorify Eostre, the Saxon goddess of fertility (thus the eggs), and Easter is still being celebrated by the Wiccans of today.

i once asked by dad about this (he holds a Masteral degree in theology) and he said that it had been an attempt to popularize Christianity in that age of Western civilization. it was a tactic to get the people to be "in" with Christianity by mixing it with the mainstream culture of that time, the same way that the melodies that we sing to in hymns today actually used to be old drinking songs sang in inns and taverns by intoxicated drunks.

thus the impact of popular culture in our everyday, even Christian, lives. this has been going on since the Middle Ages. and if vampires, werewolves, and sorcerers ain't the popular culture of today, then i don't know what is. so if Christianizing pagan celebrations for "good intentions" is valid by giving them new Christian meaning by a convention which society agrees upon, then is it valid also to Christianize those things that go bump in the night as well? lol, think how the original worshippers of Christmas and Easter must have felt when we "stole" their "holy days" to worship our own God.

I wonder how God must have felt. We ascribed originally-pagan celebrations to His Name by simply willing it through tradition because it used to be the "in" thing. but do we want to do away with Christmas and Easter because of that?

anyway, i would say more about this but i have to go to sleep already because i have an early morning class tomorrow, but i'll get back to you guys tomorrow. //bows// till then.

[uc pseudonym]

Let us not allow this discussion to move off topic about Christmas and Easter. I myself am going to keep my trap shut, as I would not otherwise.

Meanwhile, Mave is a voice of reason, as usual. And I do agree with what she posted. You do understand, though, that to do such a thing we would have to alter world mechanics? In this world I would never attempt to work with the Christian vampire concept... but in another, if vampiristic characteristics aren't exactly evil, who is to say God is against them? He's always going to be the same God, of course, but why should we believe He's created every reality identically?

[CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia comes to mind...]

[madphilb]

2) Becoming a Christian FREES you from the powers that hold these characters. Losing these powers or characteristics will never be portrayed as bad, foolish or weak by me. Hey, I would love to be freed from the curse of drinking blood or turning into something hairy at full moon. And Jesus heals and frees us if you accept His Lordship and follow him. How can one keep their powers and profess their faith at the same time? It just doesn't work for me and I'm not going to even try to make it work.

While I agree with what I think you're saying in general... if, for instance, you have someone who's been bitten by a warewolf and becomes one (often in newer more scientific stories "virus" is used to describe the condition), and then that person becomes a believer (or is one already), you can't assume that that condition is going to just change "like magic" overnight.

A cancer patient who accepts Jesus doesn't automatically stop having cancer, and while I believe God is both a healer and a doer of miracles, most likely that person will still have to deal with that cancer in a very real and mortal sense. Their acceptance of salvation doesn't make them stop being a Cancer patient, but it does change who they put hope and faith in, how they handle the day-to-day stuff.

The primary story behind, say, a Warewolf who comes to know and understand who Jesus is would be as much about his struggle with his condition in light of his actions (or lack of control over them).

My characters would all have to lose their powers, just as Kim Yong in my webmanga, KingdomCome, gave up his career, money, fame and treasures of the world (which is worthless, biblically).

Hmmm.. you write as God has lead you, but it would be nice to see a multi-billionare become a believer in one of these stories and not take the "Mother Terressa" route, but rather put his wealth and power to good use for the Kindom.

As I said though, you must write as God directs.... my comment isn't directed as criticism toward you or your story

[SwordSkill]

@ uc pseudonym...ah, i see, lol. very well. ^_^ i do understand that if we move towards that of more...er, depth, we would be moving onto more dangerous ground as a result.

but anyway, i'd just like to defend myself that i don't think my post was completely off-topic, at least not intentionally. i was merely parallelizing the discussion of werewolves et al with Christmas and Easter to give it a more practical, applicable angle because it's quite difficult to discuss abstracts when you don't see how it affects your own life and the lives of others. and i think that what had happened to the original concepts of Christmas and Easter serves as a concrete, tangible example of what might happen when you Christianize werewolves et al from their origins and put Christian Spins on Legends.

but anyway, if that's against this forum's policy, then i am sorry if i went "off-topic," to quote, by comparing. ^^ wasn't my intention.

[Mave]

used to describe the condition), and then that person becomes a believer (or is one already), you can't assume that that condition is going to just change "like magic" overnight.

Heh I do see what you mean. And I also see your point about the "redeemed werewolf" and cancer patient. I wasn't really expecting "overnight" changes. Hmmm....maybe the issue is how one defines vampires, werewolfs and sorcerors. You see, I'm resistantly "old school." I see a vampire and werewolf only as monsters, never creatures with human hearts. Sorcerors are people who decide to use dark magic for wicked acts. Full stop. No question. Case closed. That's how Mave sees it.

You may all see and define things differently, making these creatures more human-like perhaps? Or creating another reality as UC suggested. (Not a bad thing, everyone's entitled to their own imaginations). But I think you may need to indicate your definitions and intentions clearly in your works, fanfictions, manga...in order not to be misunderstood, especially if you're claiming your works to be Christian.

The primary story behind, say, a Warewolf who comes to know and understand who Jesus is would be as much about his struggle with his condition in light of his actions (or lack of control over them).

In this case, I would still refer Mr. Werewolf as a christian ex-werewolf to indicate his desire to reject his past and current struggles. I would make sure my audience understand being a werewolf is not cool, being a christian is. There's something different about a cancer patient and a werewolf. But that's just my personal take on that.

multi-billionare become a believer in one of these stories and not take the "Mother Terressa" route, but rather put his wealth and power to good use for the Kindom.

ah but being a God-loving millionaire is a heavy burden that many don't understand. I'm prepared for being poor "Blessed are the poor..." but if God wills it to be the other extreme, all I'll say is "Do as you please but God help me." Coz frankly, I don't wanna get rich but that's another topic altogether. ]As I said though, you must write as God directs.... my comment isn't directed as criticism toward you or your story [/QUOTE]
Oh don't worry, no offence taken at all...

All in all, two things for me.
1) personal conviction....I have a weakness for fantasy stuff so I know I should stay away from certain elements
2) Stumbling block....if by any chance, my creation distracts or causes my audience to misinterpret my Christian message, I'm accountable to God for it.

[uc pseudonym]

SwordSkill... I was merely trying to deflect an off-topic tangent, not reprimanding you.

Meanwhile, I wish I had something to say about the topic, but I don't. And since I have nothing to contribute, I'll stop posting (instead of writing four or five paragraphs).

[madphilb]

Sorcerors are people who decide to use dark magic for wicked acts. Full stop. No question. Case closed. That's how Mave sees it.

For this I can't argue, with one exception. The exception being if the world in which the story is driven allowed for a "good" or "white" magic that was acceptable (much as was done in the Narnia series where even Aslan's sacrifice was called "magic"). In general even in my own ideas, believers taken into a world where Magic existed would be instructed to take a hands-off policy on this.

You may all see and define things differently, making these creatures more human-like perhaps? Or creating another reality as UC suggested. (Not a bad thing, everyone's entitled to their own imaginations). But I think you may need to indicate your definitions and intentions clearly in your works, fanfictions, manga...in order not to be misunderstood, especially if you're claiming your works to be Christian.

This is a very important thing, and along those lines, it's important to remeber to take things in context. Lewis used all sorts of things in his stories, many of which where very Pagan in nature, but they where good in his story. By defintion those things are what they are in the story. An opposite approach has been done to say, Harry Potter where creatures which are obviouly good (or generally good) in the story are demonized by authors wishing to tear the books apart by using occultic reference material to define things which are very clearly not that sort in Rowlings books

(NOTE: I use this as an easy example for me to think of, not to re-open the Harry Potter issue, there are other threads that have done that, it's not the subject here, just an aside.... let's not get off-track with this ]In this case, I would still refer Mr. Werewolf as a christian ex-werewolf to indicate his desire to reject his past and current struggles. I would make sure my audience understand being a werewolf is not cool, being a christian is. There's something different about a cancer patient and a werewolf. But that's just my personal take on that. [/QUOTE]
I'm sure the answer is no, but have you ever struggled with an addiction? I would see in this sort of example the struggle with feeling out of control the same (I've been there, it's not a pretty thing).

There is a flip to this too, but it wouldn't really be a warewolf thing... take Beast from the X-Men series.... looks like a monster, but is in control (or for the most part)... there are options with this sort of thing.

ah but being a God-loving millionaire is a heavy burden that many don't understand. I'm prepared for being poor "Blessed are the poor..." but if God wills it to be the other extreme, all I'll say is "Do as you please but God help me." Coz frankly, I don't wanna get rich but that's another topic altogether. ]
Ah... this is the problem with money, but at the same time, I've been poor... and I've seen poorer... and frankly most of the poor I've seen is still rich in comparision to many people... but I'd much rather at least have enough.

In the end it's discipline with anything, and a good mindset (being cheap helps... took me a while to get out of that mindset when I had some cash and could afford to get a few "new" full priced XBox games after having scraped together a few bucks for PC games that wheren't over in a week or two

But God knows our hearts... He'll not give us more than we can handle, so if you come into money, it just means that you need to look to him to be sure you handle it properly, just as with any temptation that comes into our lives.

1) personal conviction....I have a weakness for fantasy stuff so I know I should stay away from certain elements
2) Stumbling block....if by any chance, my creation distracts or causes my audience to misinterpret my Christian message, I'm accountable to God for it.

Those are 2 very good things to keep in mind, in the end it comes down to accountability with God on what we do.


Let me add this on closing (and this isn't directed at Mave or anyone)....

I signed up on a Yahoo group for Christian Sci-Fi, and there was an interesting exchange last month or so (it finally died off in the last 30 days).

The original owner of the group had the intro letter ask the new users to post their thoughs/convictions on Psycic and Telekenetic type powers and how or if they fit into Christian Sci-Fi. Well, someone actually followed the welcome message and posted on this... and the fur began to fly.

Here's what happened, you had several groups of people, each talking about something different, or from a different perspective. One camp was the "it's all the devil and spoken against in the Bible", one was "another time, another place it might be/have been a natural ability in this or that race, animal, etc (fiction)," and one that was more along the lines of "when in fiction, follow the rules of the world written about.... the laws of this one need not apply."

The problem was that often one group would either read what the other wrote and place it's own "definitions" on things, changing what the original author wrote, or they would not bother really reading it at all and just fire back with some comment or another.

My point is I'm glad to see that it appears to look as though this isn't happening here... good job folks. (and I'm dead serious too, I mean it). Those who've posted here seem to get the idea that fiction is fiction, even if their own personal convictions don't allow for such things in their own writing/viewing.

Oh, and Mave.... I while I can't completely understand your situation with Fantasy, I do understand to a point, and respect you the rest of the way. None of this stuff has really ever been a draw for me, but I know that's not the same for others, and there are things that I have to watch for in my own life.... so in that respect I do understand.

Well... I think I've said too much... I've got a few more pages of new mesages to read (and I think my cookies have expired)

[Icarus]

If I may say so, good post madphil.

[Mave]

I think both madphil and I have made our point and our conclusions... Thanks! I learnt a lot from this thread...^^ I'll proceed to make replies where necessary.

I'm sure the answer is no, but have you ever struggled with an addiction? I would see in this sort of example the struggle with feeling out of control the same (I've been there, it's not a pretty thing).

Actually, I did have a mean addiction. Perhaps the reason why I reflect the optimism ("Jesus will heal you XD!") is because at that time, the moment I put my step down and said, "I can't stand it anymore, I hate it and I want out! Help me, Jesus!!" I was freed from it with very little effort of my own after a few more days. Some may be skeptical that it was an 'addiction' at all, but I know what I've been through and as a result, I believe strongly in God's power in healing addictions. So that's why in my 'fantasy' world, I will apply this rule. "Jesus heals!!"

Cheers and God bless!

[madphilb]

Actually, I did have a mean addiction. Perhaps the reason why I reflect the optimism ("Jesus will heal you XD!") is because at that time, the moment I put my step down and said, "I can't stand it anymore, I hate it and I want out! Help me, Jesus!!" I was freed from it with very little effort of my own after a few more days. Some may be skeptical that it was an 'addiction' at all, but I know what I've been through and as a result, I believe strongly in God's power in healing addictions. So that's why in my 'fantasy' world, I will apply this rule. "Jesus heals!!"

Sadly for many people it's not that simple.... I don't know why, God building character in people or something, never quite figured it out.... It took quite a few years to realise that even though my experience wasn't the same as others, God still loved me, that I wasn't any less a person for it.

Ever seen someone else and wonder why God doesn't bless you like that? Messes with your mind

I'm glad God healed you quick, understand it's not that way for everyone, and only God knows for sure why.

I think we've exhausted this line of conversation... and I know that I've walked away with a better insight into each other (and other people like us).

(oh, and thanks Icarus

[Yamato145]

would it be wrong to you guys to make a story about a christian demon?
i mean like ... the son of one of the fallen angels becomes christian and trys to escape from hell.
If you guys think theres nothing wrong with it I think I'll write it.

[uc pseudonym]

Well, that one causes multiple negative responses on my part. It might be an interesting story, but I couldn't endorse it theologically, for several reasons:
-I don't believe demons can change.
-I don't believe demons can sire children.
-I don't believe demons are currently in hell.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but I have to be blunt on issues such as this.

[Yamato145]

Well, that one causes multiple negative responses on my part. It might be an interesting story, but I couldn't endorse it theologically, for several reasons:
-I don't believe demons can change.
-I don't believe demons can sire children.
-I don't believe demons are currently in hell.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but I have to be blunt on issues such as this.

Harsh? ... BLAHAHAHAAAAA!!! thats mild-mannered to many of the music reviews i get ... in fact its just mild-mannered to me ... hope thats not to harsh ... sorry i had too ... but thanks for your opinion ... I did after all post that just to hear you guys' opinions. unless someone gives me a different response then i guess that project is canned.

[uc pseudonym]

I'm pretty soft spoken. But I don't like being cruel abouts. All I meant by harsh was that I basically said the principle of your idea was entirely flawed. And no hard feelings about what you said, either.