Christian Spins on Legends

[uc pseudonym]

Spawned by the vampires thread, and the number of people who mentioned the Christian vampire idea. Do not limit the discussion to just vampires, however, any traditionally nonChristian legend can apply for this thread. If done properly, this could be an interesting discussion.

Personally, I've been tossing an idea about in my own mind for some time now. It basically boils down to a church in an extremely wierd town... a town with quite a number of legendary creatures in it. All of these are tampered with slightly (vampires are a race, etc), so that the people involved still have ordinary souls. We have a bunch of "monsters" doing their best to be Christian with their... unique... problems. Most likely I'll never get around to writing this though, don't let me steer this off topic.

[CobaltAngel]

This could be an intresing thread indeed. In a story I'm writting right now the main character is a christian werewolf... ^_^

[DrNic]

Hey, what about a version of the Exorcist where the priests don't die, that would have a nice happy ending...

[Omega Amen]

Do not limit the discussion to just vampires, however, any traditionally nonChristian legend can apply for this thread.

Personally, I've been tossing an idea about in my own mind for some time now. It basically boils down to a church in an extremely wierd town... a town with quite a number of legendary creatures in it.

Many years ago, I read "That Hideous Strength," by C.S. Lewis, the third book in his Space Trilogy. Apparently, Merlin, the legendary sorcerer, was a character in it and had helped the protagonist a little bit with his sorcery. He also had "problems" but I cannot remember details.... It has been a long time since I read that book.

Anyway, is it possible to pull off a Christian spin on a sorcerer? Of course, uc pseudonym seems to be looking for "monsters," and I am not sure a sorcerer like Merlin qualifies... unless sorcerers are considered monsters?

I am curious if a successful spin can be pulled... if at all. I wonder what dilemmas such a character would have. However, I wouldn't know how to do it since I am focused on becoming a computer engineer....

Ah well, maybe somebody has a better idea....

[Technomancer]

There's probably quite a variety of ways of modifying legends to suit Christian beliefs. An interesting approach might be to look at a number of medievel legends by way of example. The Irish legends after all came down to us modified by their recorders, the Christian monks (sometimes to the annoyance of mythologists, since they excised much that was directly religious). Beowulf likewise possess a Christian gloss, as does the final story of the Kalevala.

[thorn1ofmany]

Hey, what about a version of the Exorcist where the priests don't die, that would have a nice happy ending...

Actually I've been working on a story somewhat similar to that, although the idea was inspired more by Frank Peretti's two books "This Present Darkness" and "Piercing the Darkness." My idea is that a young man is either born with or gains the power to see and affect the spirit realm. He has these spirit blades that emerge out of his arms which he uses to slay (Question: Can angels and demons die?) or bannish demons.

Many years ago, I read "That Hideous Strength," by C.S. Lewis, the third book in his Space Trilogy. Apparently, Merlin, the legendary sorcerer, was a character in it and had helped the protagonist a little bit with his sorcery. He also had "problems" but I cannot remember details.... It has been a long time since I read that book.

Anyway, is it possible to pull off a Christian spin on a sorcerer?

All throughout the Bible the power of the spoken word is greatly emphasized, God spoke the world into existence, God told Moses to command the rock to bring forth water (not strike it), even the archangel Michael verbally rebuked the devil by Gods power rather than his own (see Jude 1:8). C.S. Lewis continued this theme in his Space Trilogy. Its been a while since I read it but I think Merlin speaks in either the language of the angels or the original language upon which all others are based. Either way his words are so ancient that they take on power, kind of like spoken spells but with a Christian twist. I think a Christian story about a wizard or sorcerer could work very well if grounded in the oral tradition of the Bible.

[Ashley]

Stephen R. Lawhead did an admirable job of taking the legends of Arthur and putting a Christian spin on them. Even the "wizard" Merlin was a devout Christian leader. What I loved most about his retelling is that they had enough of the "old lore" to them that, if you could pretend these tales were what really happened, it was easy to see how they devolved into the popular retellings we have today. Example: Ingraine was married to Aurelius and was pregant with their son when Aurelius died and she married his brother, Uther. With a few plot twists involved, it was easy to see how the story evolved into today's telling of Uther transforming into Igraine's husband, which is much more racy and adulterous. In fact, in narrato Merlin scoffs at this later conclusion, which I found amusing.

Anyway, the point of my long rant is to check out at least Taliesin or Merlin by Lawhead, UC. They could be of some great help to you.

[Fsiphskilm]

Oh yea that's righ

[Ashley]

*laughs* UC already conquered that one, remember?

[MasterDias]

Not sure which topic to stick this in as it concerns vampires but I read this one superhero comic book that essentially had a Christian vampire in it.

He was actually a Catholic priest who got lured into an alley and bitten by a vampire disguised as beautiful girl. Realizing that it was his own human failings that had sealed him his fate, he became a superhero named The Confessor. From what I remember, he always wears a cross hanging around his neck. The pain that it caused him managed to let him keep his faith and his mind and let him conquar the longing for human blood.

...or something like that.
It's been a while since I read it. It was in a comic book series called Astro City.

[cbwing0]

I find it rather hard to believe that there could be a Christian sorcerer, if those terms are to be understood in the proper manner.

First, of all, the bible condems sorcery in many places. For example, Deuteronomy 18: 9-12:

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daugher in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out the nations before you."

Now, if these things are grounds for the destruction of nations, I seriously doubt that they are acceptable practices.

Perhaps you are saying to yourself, "Well, that's just the Old Testament law, so we don't have to follow it now." You would be wrong:

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions...I warn you, as I dide before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-20; 21b, italics mine).

This is not to say that someone could not perform miracles by the will of God, although that is faith, not sorcery. The difference is that miracles are performed by the will of God, wheras sorcery is practiced by men to fulfill their own will, often contrary to God's will.

How exactly are the sorcerers in the works you mentioned portrayed?

[EireWolf]

I am currently reading "Merlin" for the second time (the one Ashley mentioned). Merlin was raised as a Druid, learning about nature and the powers of the earth, etc. Then he spent a few years as a captive of the Hill Folk, who taught him their lore and powers as well. He did not learn about Christ until later (I think). He still had these powers, but was reluctant to use them for some reason. Eventually he used them, but then later felt convicted about it and stopped (if I remember correctly... It's been a while since I've read the end.) So the book addresses the "sorcery" issue. He actually fights evil Morgian... and is a strong believer in Christ.

Ashley could probably explain it better.

[uc pseudonym]

A Christian sorceror is an interesting idea, one I'll have to give some thought to. Some of you have certainly helped, in this thread. The important thing to remember is that we'd be using different world mechanics...

I'll do that, Ashley. As soon as my current research project lets up and I have time to read what I actually want to read.

And yes, heh, the "Christian demon" idea has essentially been covered. In depth.

[JediSonic]

lol, yes, good call on the demon thing Ashley

[DrNic]

How about a fallen angel who turns good (like the anti-satan)...I really do suck at this dont I...

[uc pseudonym]

No, you're not so bad at this. Don't be hard on yourself.

But the idea is quite covered, as stated multiple times.

Meanwhile, let's not let this thread get bogged down with anything. At the moment we're still fine, but I see several areas that could pointlessly tangent. I find the "Christian sorceror" debate quite interesting, and would be pleased to see this thread taken in that direction, though I wouldn't want to limit it to that.

[Solid Ronin]

An Christian orc or troll?

[RefractedAhav]

I think the safest way to solve the christian sorceror puzzle is by writting an anology set in a fantasy world. You could then make the "sorceror" 100% faithful to what ever charactor you use to represent God. If you wanted to you could also make the sorceror's powers themselves symbolize somthing.

...just a thought

[EireWolf]

Actually, David Eddings has done something similar to what you suggest, Elowen. Has anyone read the Belgariad series? It's really good. The main characters are sorcerers, and they serve their god faithfully. It is in no way Christian, however.

[RefractedAhav]

Is The wheel of time an anology to the Second Coming (aka rapture)?

it seems like one to me.

[Omega Amen]

Meanwhile, let's not let this thread get bogged down with anything. At the moment we're still fine, but I see several areas that could pointlessly tangent. I find the "Christian sorceror" debate quite interesting, and would be pleased to see this thread taken in that direction, though I wouldn't want to limit it to that.

I have noticed that the discussion on the Christian sorceror was debated in the context of a fantasy/mythological world. While I understand that uc pseudonym is looking to spin a "legend," I was wondering if there could be more of a modern sci-fi twist to it.

I got this train of thought from the mentioning of people working with Christian vampires and werewolves. I thought a Christian audience would be more sympathetic to these vampires and werewolves if they got their "condition" not by supernatural circumstances but let's say a severe mutation in their genetics.

Now let's take the mutant idea to a member of the Marvel Comics heros X-men. I am guessing many of you are familiar with the character Storm who is a mutant that basically controls the weather elements like lightning strikes, storms, wind, ice, and rain. She can be accurately described as a "weather witch." In the comic books, she is a believer and practitioner of a nature-spirit religion.

But let's say she saw the Truth and converted to Christianity? Now what? How will she cope with her condition, her desire to use her "special abilities" for good, and her newfound faith?

I am not saying uc pseudonym should take this particular "what if" with Storm and write about it. I have started skimming through his works and he shows great creative ability (except with his online user name). I am also not sure if the mutant idea will steal away any thunder or fire that uc pseudonym might be planning in his future work. But considering there is a mention of different world mechanics, I thought this might be relevant... I think.

Also, I think cbwing0 hit what might be a central theme in this type of work: is this type of character doing his will or God's will? It can be particularly strong and powerful to a Christian audience because I think we have also personally asked ourselves this question quite a bit. Am I really doing God's will or am I just fooling myself into thinking that and I am really doing my will instead?

*looks at length of post*

I think I better be quiet now. I hope I didn't bog down this thread. Either way, uc pseudonym, I look forward to what you will be able to "spin" here.

[mechana2015]

I like the idea UC... I have a similar concept in somthing I wrote, a non moral changing vamprical transformation- I'll try to explain it later if you want me to, its a long story and kinda complicated. i really have wondered how fun it would be to have monsters with morals, and an obvious christian witness. (always has wanted to be able to transform into another creature)

[uc pseudonym]

I appreciate the extensive post, but feel the need to provide commentary and clarify on occasion.

I have noticed that the discussion on the Christian sorceror was debated in the context of a fantasy/mythological world. While I understand that uc pseudonym is looking to spin a "legend," I was wondering if there could be more of a modern sci-fi twist to it.

Acceptable for this discussion. However, I have a general clarification to make.

I think I better be quiet now. I hope I didn't bog down this thread. Either way, uc pseudonym, I look forward to what you will be able to "spin" here.

This thread is for this discussion. I have no intention of writing a story involving this idea, as I unfortunately do not have the time. If I feel moved or become quite inspired, I might, but such was not the intention.

I got this train of thought from the mentioning of people working with Christian vampires and werewolves. I thought a Christian audience would be more sympathetic to these vampires and werewolves if they got their "condition" not by supernatural circumstances but let's say a severe mutation in their genetics.

Now let's take the mutant idea to a member of the Marvel Comics heros X-men. I am guessing many of you are familiar with the character Storm who is a mutant that basically controls the weather elements like lightning strikes, storms, wind, ice, and rain. She can be accurately described as a "weather witch." In the comic books, she is a believer and practitioner of a nature-spirit religion.

But let's say she saw the Truth and converted to Christianity? Now what? How will she cope with her condition, her desire to use her "special abilities" for good, and her newfound faith?

A noteable idea, and the general trend I have taken, in thought if little else.

I have started skimming through his works and he shows great creative ability (except with his online user name)

There are a few details of which you may not be aware. In full, it is "uncreative pseudonym." It is meant to be humorous, for the exact reason you have stated. I found it mildly amusing.

[Technomancer]

As OA mentioned, it's always possible to ascribe the "sorcery" to some natural, if poorly understood, mechanism. To quote Clark, "any technology if sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic". The same could apply here.

And then there's the question of how these people fit into the world. Consider the state of mutants in X-men, or of magic in Barbara Hambly's books (esp. the Darwath trilogy).

[madphilb]

Is The wheel of time an anology to the Second Coming (aka rapture)?

it seems like one to me.

NO....

In fact the whole Wheel of Time series while it does have some things that look Christian have far too many things that are not (the original symbol of the Aes Sedai is basically the Ying-Yang symbol).

Having said this, I enjoy the series, I've read most of the books (still need to read the last one).

This is the same sort of thing as looking to apply the same sort of things to the Matrix series (not just the 1st one but the whole thing).

[cbwing0]

As OA mentioned, it's always possible to ascribe the "sorcery" to some natural, if poorly understood, mechanism. To quote Clark, "any technology if sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic". The same could apply here.

And then there's the question of how these people fit into the world. Consider the state of mutants in X-men, or of magic in Barbara Hambly's books (esp. the Darwath trilogy).

The fact remains that sorcery, where sorcery refers to extraordinary acts/powers acquired by appealing to supernatural forces other than God, are sinful. A character could technically possess them, but they would be sinning by using them. Most if not all fantasy sorcerers would fall into this category.

If we are talking about some natural phenomena producing the effects of sorcery; or if the person in question has their powers by virtue of genetic mutations ala the X-Men, then that would be a different matter, as there would be no involvement of evil supernatural forces. Such a "sorcerer" would be a deviation from the fantasy norm, and would be quite interesting as such.

[Michael]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

That one's easy; the egg......No! Wait! The chicken!

[Technomancer]

You missed my point about magic cb, which was that what may be popularly perceived as sorcery has a perfectly natural explanation within the context of the story's universe.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg of course. Since birds evolved from reptiles, which also lay eggs, the egg must necessarily predate chickens.

[cbwing0]

You missed my point about magic cb, which was that what may be popularly perceived as sorcery has a perfectly natural explanation within the context of the story's universe.

My point being that, if it is in fact natural (which the reader would presumably know), then it would not truly be "sorcery."

[Omega Amen]

This thread is for this discussion. I have no intention of writing a story involving this idea, as I unfortunately do not have the time. If I feel moved or become quite inspired, I might, but such was not the intention.

Thank you for stating your intentions. I shall now craft my comments in light of your clarification.

There are a few details of which you may not be aware. In full, it is "uncreative pseudonym." It is meant to be humorous, for the exact reason you have stated. I found it mildly amusing.

I was aware of this irony before I made the initial post. "The Fall" was the work I was skimming through, and I saw the statement that the writing belonged to Uncreative Pseudonym. I quickly made the connection, and my parenthetical statement was intended to show (probably unsuccessfully) that I recognized the underlying amusement.

Speaking of amusement, Michael apparently thinks he can contribute with another Christian spin involving the legend of the chicken and the egg:

[quote="Michael"]Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

That one's easy]

Or am I mistaken? If this is a joke, please elaborate. I have this fault of taking things too seriously, and therefore, I sometimes miss obvious humor (which explains my excitement in understanding uc pseudonym's irony).