Mainstream vs. Christian

[Maledicte]

Has anyone read the book by Steve Turner called Imagine: a Vision for Christians in the Arts? I highly recommend it, it helped me a lot when I was rather timid in my pursuit of an art career.

[Ashley]

I apologize but I am pretty strict on my views of christianity and any form of entertainment or using it as art to me... is idolism, with that I also do not believe in artwork portraying Christ, apostles, the cross... anything.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here or anything (heaven help us when the head cheese herself starts doing that!) but I'm curious: how do you feel about tracts? If God actually uses a piece of art depicting Himself to bring someone into His kingdom, is it still wrong?

Also, the majority of Christian works I've seen aren't necessarily drawing Christ and the apostles, but instead placing Christians into situations where their faith is obvious, or (more common nowadays) creating settings where biblical truth can be conveyed in symbolism (i.e. the redeemption of a slave in a futuristic desert world, etc.)

[Raiden no Kishi]

I am rather new to anime, while watched for year I have never really got very deep into it so I apologize that I do not make references to any anime/manga in this post but the topic is just too good too pass up.

That's OK ~ this thread isn't really focused around anime/manga.

Now, as an artist who is committed to using his passion for God's glory and as a staunch advocate of Christians becoming involved in entertainment, I'm afraid I cannot allow your post to go unanswered.

My honest opinion is rather that the world is just not ready for christianity as entertainment, it simply is not in form or fashion...how can you make fun out of self-sacrifice and giving up all to make a walk with Christ and simply put why must Americans make this realm a form of entertainment...its needless and it only promotes self-gain regardless of how you look at it, the money goes somewhere and it's a paycheck.

Okay, first things first. "its needless and it only promotes self-gain regardless of how you look at it, the money goes somewhere and it's a paycheck." Technically, by this logic, any job at all is wrong. But I wouldn't insult your intelligence by insinuating that you believe that. ^_^ Second, I believe you're confusing entertainment with "fun", and enjoyable entertainnment with triviality. Have you seen, say, The Passion? Not a fun movie to watch ~ I only made it about halfway before I had to leave the theater. But it was an excellent movie because it made the extent of Christ's sacrifice that much more real to me. I spent the second half of the movie weeping and thanking Christ for his sacrifice. I am not an anomaly ~ in fact, it is usually difficult for me to become very emotional about something. Would you call that a waste? I call it an honor to God. Now: "My honest opinion is rather that the world is just not ready for christianity as entertainment, it simply is not in form or fashion...how can you make fun out of self-sacrifice and giving up all to make a walk with Christ and simply put why must Americans make this realm a form of entertainment..." I would suggest you read the manga titles Rurouni Kenshin and Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles. They are two of my favorite manga series ever. In both of the series [neither of which was created by any Christians], loving self-sacrifice [the very same kind that we are called to] is a major theme. In Rurouni Kenshin, the main character [Kenshin] constantly protects the innocent, even at severe cost to himself. This is a theme carried out through all 28 volumes. In Tsubasa, the main protagonist [hero], Syaoran, travels different worlds to recover pieces of his dear childhood friend Sakura's memory. Now, the two loved each other [though, in typical manga fashion, neither had the guts to say it ^_^], but in order to be able to restore Sakura's memories, Syaoran had to give up something precious. When her memory was restored, Sakura would have no memory at all of Syaoran. Yet he goes and undertakes a dangerous and trying quest [one that is still unfinished] with little tangible gain for himself ~ all because he truly loves her. Both series are very enjoyable to watch. Instead of just saying, "Be self-sacrificing", these series push that theme and praise such an attribute through the use of entertainment. Would you call that wrong? I believe you are also falling prey to the misconception that all Christian entertainment must have a salvation message/other religious educational content. Whatever happened to making a good movie/book/record/game? There's no shame or sin in that. The world could use some more quality entertainment, and if Christians are the ones producing it, it brings all the more glory to God. Would you call that wrong? Would you call that a waste?

Jesus never preached about making a movie/game/anime/cartoon/book... He preached about loving one another, following God and putting nothing before Him.

And He sure didn't preach against them, now did He? I would ask you to show me [Scripture support is nice] how making entertainment inherently prohibits you from lonivg others, following God and placing Him first. You can't do it.

Frankly put Christianity will never surpass mainstream entertainment because it is not meant to and that is because Christianity is not entertainment and if you think it is then I apologize when I say that you need to re-evaluate things.

"Christianity is not meant to surpass mainstream entertainment" ~ whoa, there. Scriptural support? ANY support? "Christianity is not entertainment" ~ I assume you mean we shouldn't take the Christian life lightly. No-one in this thread, or indeed on this board, does so. Christians making entertainment does not inherently do so. I believe you are the one who should think twice. Why would you throw away a powerful form of communication? Why throw away a worldwide platform to bless others? Would Christ support that?

This probably will offend others, especially if you are in the industry of making christianity more fun or "acceptable" to others, but to me it is just conforming to the worldy view and slapping God on it... this is not right in my book and I apologize if I do offend anyone but I feel what I say is true and that I need to share it.

Now, there's a hasty generalization if ever I heard one. Forgive me if I sound angry, but to be honest, I am a little. Where do you find justification claiming that all Christians in entertainment are interested in watering down the Gospel? That's an unfounded, unjust, untrue claim. "to me it is just conforming to the worldy view and slapping God on it..." ~ so would it be wrong for a Christian to open a burger joint? After all, the world did it first. Wouldn't we then be "conforming to the worldly view"? Seriously now. I ask you for some clear, in context Scriptural support for your claims. It isn't wise to throw out ideas of what is right and wrong without support from the one source of moral law.

"I apologize but I am pretty strict on my views of christianity and any form of entertainment or using it as art to me... is idolism, with that I also do not believe in artwork portraying Christ, apostles, the cross... anything."
And your Scriptural support for this view is . . .? Anyone with a properly functioning, educated mind knows that any art portraying Christ/the apostles [who were just men, so who cares if we make art of them?]/the cross [which was just a torture device] isn't really the object. Have you ever seen someone bowing down and worshipping a painting of Jesus? Seriously. You are going to have to show me some Scriptural support ~ and no, the 2nd commandment does NOT count. You have to prove your LINK to the 2nd commandment.

In the Bible, we are commanded to be ready to give an answer for the hope we have ~ I would ask you to give an answer for your indirect condemnation of many of the members of this forum.

.rai//

[Syreth]

I think Rob Bell makes a good point in Velvet Elvis. "Christian" is historically a noun, but these days we like to make it an adjective. This is dangerous because we automatically let down our guard when something has the title "Christian." You can go to a "Christian" church and hear a "Christian" pastor preach heresy.

On the other hand, since "Christian" is a noun, I would hope that anybody who claims to be a Christian would heartily do whatever they do as unto the Lord with all of their might so that the world can see their good works and glorify their Father in heaven. Unfortunately, the "Christian" adjective has produced many cookie-cutter music groups, books etc. that have recieved somewhat of a free-pass to success just becuase of their claim to be a "Christian (fill in the blank)." If we continue with this mindset, not only are we promoting second-rate entertainment (that unfortunately bears the name of Christ), but we are opening the door to all sorts of wolves in sheep's clothing that carry along the adjective "Christian" just to get a free ride to popularity, which, in my opinion, is far more dangerous. Luckily God judges the hearts of men and does His part in raising up one and putting down another.

[Technomancer]

While I agree with your point, I'm not sure you can cite Endo fairly. I've read Silence, and I didn't think it was particularly favorable to Christianity.

I'm not particularly sure which part of the novel you're referring to, although I would still disagree with you. Granted, the main character in Silence, Sebastian Rodrigues, is in many ways a weak man. However, as with Graham Greene's Whiskey Priest (in The Power and the Glory), it is this very weakness that allows the author to shed light on the difficult problems relating to the nature of faith, doubt, and sacrifice. The goal of both novels is not to so much to evangelize, and certainly not to show the church in a good light, but to illuminate how Christianity works out in the lives of ordinary, flawed people like ourselves.

I apologize but I am pretty strict on my views of christianity and any form of entertainment or using it as art to me... is idolism, with that I also do not believe in artwork portraying Christ, apostles, the cross... anything.

This actually illustrates another problem relating to "Christian" as a genre. Within Christianity, there are many different faith traditions, with their own peculiar worldviews. Material from one tradition may not make complete sense, or may even be distasteful, to a person from a radically different sect. For example, all of the authors that I previously cited were Catholic, and as result, there is an implicit worldview that may make perfect sense to myself but not to another.

[mitsuki lover]

according to Webster's New World Dictionary Third College Edition,Idolism can mean:1)Idolatry or 2)a fallacious notion;false reasoning.

[creed4]

As a christian, and a poet I want Christ to be seen in my poetry, and stories, another thing I think we need is an alternitve. We absorbe every thing we see and hear. Weither we amit it or not there is an effect on us. Of course everyone is different so the way it effects up is differant. The point is I think we as christian should produce Art, so that there is an alternative to what is in the world. As christian I believe that everything we do should be unto the Lord, and Therefore the best we can do. For that reason I believe that we should produce art better then the world does.

[GhostontheNet]

I am rather new to anime, while watched for year I have never really got very deep into it so I apologize that I do not make references to any anime/manga in this post but the topic is just too good too pass up.

My honest opinion is rather that the world is just not ready for christianity as entertainment, it simply is not in form or fashion...how can you make fun out of self-sacrifice and giving up all to make a walk with Christ and simply put why must Americans make this realm a form of entertainment...its needless and it only promotes self-gain regardless of how you look at it, the money goes somewhere and it's a paycheck.

Jesus never preached about making a movie/game/anime/cartoon/book... He preached about loving one another, following God and putting nothing before Him.

Frankly put Christianity will never surpass mainstream entertainment because it is not meant to and that is because Christianity is not entertainment and if you think it is then I apologize when I say that you need to re-evaluate things.

This probably will offend others, especially if you are in the industry of making christianity more fun or "acceptable" to others, but to me it is just conforming to the worldy view and slapping God on it... this is not right in my book and I apologize if I do offend anyone but I feel what I say is true and that I need to share it.

If you take such a hardball pseudo-legalistic position on this matter, why don't you just be consistent, condemn anime and all artwork as of the idolatrous devilry (for many thousands of paper abominations are created in the making of an animated film), and go find some other hobby? Art of all forms cannot be reduced to mere "entertainment", for there is no such thing as mere entertainment. A lot of artists of different forms have created works teaching love and self sacrifice as Christ did, for example (assuming you do not go into a claustrophobic hysteria and condemn all books except the Bible), John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and John Milton's Paradise Regained deals greatly with this subject. Even our Lord Yeshua Christ was a master of the verbal art of storytelling through parables, although naturally this must have merely been a waste of his time to entertain people.

[Raiden no Kishi]

Now, guys, remember: No matter how much we disagree with his views, Cross is assumed to be a fellow Christian. Ergo, he deserves enough respect to attack his arguments and not him personally.

.rai//

[creed4]

There is a diffence between a symbol and an idol. For instance Moses was told to make a bracen surpent and attatch it to pole, when the fiery surpent came, any one who looked on it would be healed, later that object was worshiped, and therefore it was distroyed as an idol.(Please excuse my spelling)
Worship of an image is what makes it an Idol

[rab357]

Consider: Cross has a different view on this, yet i propose that we are more similar than we think. We have all seen Christian entertainment and it obviously has left a bad taste in all our mouths. What if today we only saw the kind of C.e. that we all wish and dream of seeing? Would opinions be changed? Would this and similar questions even have to be debated and asked? I think I have found one thing we can all agree on: todays C.e. is not satisfactory to our entertainment or Christian desires.

[Cross]

You will not like this response as I really do not feel that I need to explain myself to you. I will leave this though, my thoughts are my own and I dictate no one but myself. I carry my own beliefs as to what I believe is true. What is said by me is my opinion and should be held no further than that, if you like what I say...great, if not take it with a grain of salt and walk the other way.

You want scripture, please read below... I don't particularly care if you said I could not use it... as that would remove the scripture that flat out says it, now if you think Paul and company said "Let there be no stain glass, no movies, no video games" I don't I will find it in a NIV Bible...maybe a more mainstream Bible (some crazy ones out today) but I still doubt it.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:3-5)

I wish I had more for you I really do. You want scripture to back up everything I say but I simply don't have it... I just have my heart and my prayers and what I feel God tells me... that is what I listen to but unfortunately it's not published work... I am sorry.

I should clarify (I am beginning to ramble, sorry) that I am ONLY against images, regardless of what they do for someone... I am against them, I do not believe they have a place in the church. An ideal church to me is 4 walls, a floor and a preacher and congregation...not even pews (sorry if misspelled) only because I feel a congregation should be on their knee's when in worship. No, I am not against singing or standing and jumping during worship music either . I also have to say I am against christian based games even the Bible trivia stuff for kids mainly because they make God a form of entertainment and the money only goes towards self-gain.

Now if they made games and passed them out for free or all profits went towards a charitable organization that actually did not steal the money and gave it to a worthy cause... THAT'S GREAT, but still falls under the graven images most like since gaming is all about presentation you know... for the most part.

Again a hard subject and extremely tricky which I am just going to end here for me as I will comment no more on it, nor anything regarding this thread but will say one last thing, which I probably repeated 3 pages up

I believe in what I believe as you believe in what you believe... I respect your opinion as I hope you respect mine... I have no way to fully convince you as you can not convince me, we are locked in a stale mate and it is pointless to debate this. I apologize if I offended you not my intentions... if this is your field, great...wish you the best of luck in this endeavour.

I am not as anal as I probably seem, just my opinons normally differ greatly from others.

[Arnobius]

I'm not particularly sure which part of the novel you're referring to, although I would still disagree with you. Granted, the main character in Silence, Sebastian Rodrigues, is in many ways a weak man. However, as with Graham Greene's Whiskey Priest (in The Power and the Glory), it is this very weakness that allows the author to shed light on the difficult problems relating to the nature of faith, doubt, and sacrifice. The goal of both novels is not to so much to evangelize, and certainly not to show the church in a good light, but to illuminate how Christianity works out in the lives of ordinary, flawed people like ourselves.

Wasn't this the book that
[spoiler]Had the Priest deny his faith so he would be able to live on and help his people[/spoiler]?
As I recall many Japanese Christians were offended by that book if I recall rightly. Sorry if my 2¢ isn't quite relevant. It just came to mind.

[Raiden no Kishi]

You will not like this response as I really do not feel that I need to explain myself to you.

Beliefs should have a firm foundation, no? Especially those that condemn many fellow Christians?

I will leave this though, my thoughts are my own and I dictate no one but myself. I carry my own beliefs as to what I believe is true. What is said by me is my opinion and should be held no further than that, if you like what I say...great, if not take it with a grain of salt and walk the other way.

You want scripture, please read below... I don't particularly care if you said I could not use it... as that would remove the scripture that flat out says it, now if you think Paul and company said "Let there be no stain glass, no movies, no video games" I don't I will find it in a NIV Bible...maybe a more mainstream Bible (some crazy ones out today) but I still doubt it.

My reasoning is that just quoting the commandment alone isn't good enough. You have yet to support your link between Christian content and the 2nd commandment. If you were to poll, say, those who viewed The Passion, I severely doubt that you could find one person [aside from those too immature to separate fantasy and reality] that actually thought that was our Lord onscreen. The issue is what you worship.

I wish I had more for you I really do. You want scripture to back up everything I say but I simply don't have it... I just have my heart and my prayers and what I feel God tells me... that is what I listen to but unfortunately it's not published work... I am sorry.

I respect your right to your own convictions, to be sure, but to take a general commandment out to condemn something so specific . . . I would personally need more clarity.

I should clarify (I am beginning to ramble, sorry) that I am ONLY against images, regardless of what they do for someone... I am against them, I do not believe they have a place in the church. An ideal church to me is 4 walls, a floor and a preacher and congregation...not even pews (sorry if misspelled) only because I feel a congregation should be on their knee's when in worship. No, I am not against singing or standing and jumping during worship music either ]
I'd like to just speak to that last sentence there. First of all, the money. I don't think it's right to say their money only goes towards personal gain. Number one: Surely you don't believe they shouldn't be paid for their work. Number two: the profit in a business goes towards improving the quality of the product.

Now if they made games and passed them out for free or all profits went towards a charitable organization that actually did not steal the money and gave it to a worthy cause... THAT'S GREAT, but still falls under the graven images most like since gaming is all about presentation you know... for the most part.

Of course, given the large [and ever-increasing] time and effort it takes to produce a competitive game [although I doubt the Christian game-producing community has seen one <_<], it would be nigh-impossible to give them out for free. And of course, if you give all of your profits to charity, there's no reasonable way to improve your product. And of course, there's the consideration that the work itself is a service ~ you're creating dependable entertainment for fellow Christians. Sounds like a worthy cause to me. As to "gaming is all about presentation" ~ I'd like to know exactly what you mean by this and how you would link skillful presentation [such as good graphics and sound] to idolatry. o_O

I believe in what I believe as you believe in what you believe... I respect your opinion as I hope you respect mine... I have no way to fully convince you as you can not convince me, we are locked in a stale mate and it is pointless to debate this. I apologize if I offended you not my intentions... if this is your field, great...wish you the best of luck in this endeavour.

Seems odd that you'd wish someone the best of luck in an endeavour that you consider a sin against God. That's a weighty accusation, especially considering it's against fellow brothers and sisters whose hearts are to serve God in their fields. I'm sorry, but as a Christian artist who supports quality Christian entertainment, you can understand where I'm coming from. In essence, you're telling me that the field I have a passion for is a sin. I would also disagree that it is pointless to debate the issue . . . honest debate, where both sides consider that they may be mistaken and treat each other with decency and respect, is the proper way to settle a controversial issue. If you're mistaken, you find the truth. If you're right, you strengthen your beliefs. If you're undecided, you get all sides of an issue. If you refuse to discuss the issue, that's your prerogative, but I believe you are mistaken, and that it is most wise to have a firm Biblical foundation for your beliefs, particularly when you pass judgement on what is sin.

As a final thought, how would you reconcile Christ's use of stories, which would be a form of entertainment, or Christian music [which dates back to at least the book of Psalms] with your beliefs?

.rai//

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

What the dickens? Cross, reality check please. If your going to condemn all these things, why not the internet, it can be a form of entertainment and can also be used for God's glory also. Gasp! It can't be true. But it is and there isn't a problem with it. There's a difference between discernment and narrow-mindedness. I think I'll stop before I throw this laptop across the room in frustration.
By the way listen to others, they have good points. Maybe it's your conviction, but we don't like 'hellfire judgement' any more than the next guy. Good day.

[Sakaki Onsei]

Okay, I'm gonna step in here to separate the bunch. We're starting to degenerate downward a bit.

We as believers are still individual. We have God's word to correct us, and we have brothers and sister to keep us in line. However, our approaches to the world around us are going to be quite different.

Cross is different in that he responds to the world from a cautious viewpoint, a wary viewpoint. These are what I like to call "Frontline Disciples", because they're generally at the front lines in the battle.

Then there are people like myself who are doing infiltration, used as a vessel to bring God's word to individuals. Some of us use Anime, some use music, some use manga, but we have a role to play nevertheless.

When we war against each other, it means that our focus is not upward, but outward. I would suggest that everyone step back for a second, and pray. It's the best way for a heart to be calmed and healed...and besides, God's always wanting to talk.

[Nate]

This may be a bit of echoing what others have said, but I still need to make my thoughts known.

I also have to say I am against christian based games even the Bible trivia stuff for kids mainly because they make God a form of entertainment and the money only goes towards self-gain.

First, you are making a generalization, and generalizations are by their very nature false. You do not know every single person who has made a Christian game, therefore you cannot say all of them use the money for self-gain. Also, as Rai pointed out, if they do not make money from their endeavour, how are they to feed their family? God never said earning money or having a job is a sin. God said the LOVE of money is sinful, but not everyone works their job to be greedy, most people do it to put food on their table.

Second, I believe God is entertaining. God created the universe, and everything in it. He created humor. God is a lot of things, holy, righteous, just, and I guarantee He is witty and hilarious as well. Also, as Rai stated, Jesus used parables to mask the truth from those who were not worthy to hear it, but also because hearing a story about a guy burying talents in the ground is a lot more entertaining than just hearing a spiritual truth. And I'm sure when he told the story, a few people laughed at the foolishness of the man who buried his talents. It's entertaining, and it's spiritually rich. This proves Christian entertainment is not only successful, but to be emulated. After all, we are called to be like Christ, are we not?

Seems odd that you'd wish someone the best of luck in an endeavour that you consider a sin against God.

I don't look at people who make pornographic films and say, "Hey, I hope you do a great job!" because it is sinful and an affront against God. I am perplexed as well as to why you would wish someone great luck in something that you consider to be worthy of holy judgement.

I'm sorry, I can't see things from your point of view. I'm not trying to be mean, but you seem to have little scriptural basis for your beliefs, and it's just frustrating that you would condemn so many shows/games/movies that have brought people to know our Lord and Savior.

[bigsleepj]

Second, I believe God is entertaining. God created the universe, and everything in it. He created humor. God is a lot of things, holy, righteous, just, and I guarantee He is witty and hilarious as well....

Yes, I agree, and I'd like to add a few things to this thought. God would not have invented all these things (or let us invent them) if they wouldn't be used for good or to bring glory to Him. Not to mention some of those old truths of the New Testament, like the blind leading the blind (the full quote), were not only meant to be theological truths, but were quite witty in themselves.

I'm not too fond of randomly quoting scripture, but Phillipians 4 verse 4 says does say that we must "Rejoice in the Lord always]in[/B] God, being the focus of the quote. It is off course another thing (a bad thing) to use Christians and God as a scheme to make money, but different if you just wish to help them with their spiritual needs. God would not have given these things if they were not there to glorify Him.

[Technomancer]

Wasn't this the book that
[spoiler]Had the Priest deny his faith so he would be able to live on and help his people[/spoiler]?

That's not exactly the reason for what for what happened.

As I recall many Japanese Christians were offended by that book if I recall rightly. Sorry if my 2¢ isn't quite relevant. It just came to mind.

This much is true, many felt that it made their ancestors to appear cowardly.

[Linksquest]

I think sometimes mainstream and Christian can overlap. With the instance of The LEFT BEHIND series which became very popular as well as such book as THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE which was a best seller. Other things like THE LORD OF THE RINGS which has underlying tones of christian themes or the more obvious allegoric CHRONICLES OF NARNIA. I have even heard that there are christian themes in the HARRY POTTER series (but I wouldn't know as I haven't read any of the books, hehe ).

[Arnobius]

That's not exactly the reason for what for what happened.

Fair enough. I have not read it yet, but have been considering it (Amazon keeps recommending it to me based on past purchases of Christian books and Japanese novels. I heard about it from looking up Japan and Christianity in Google searches. This was what the reviews imputed.

This much is true, many felt that it made their ancestors to appear cowardly.

Yes, this is what I saw in many articles from Japan. The fact that so many faced martyrdom in reality for their faith made them resent this portrayal.

[mitsuki lover]

The choice is not an easy one as we would presume it to be.Martrydom would in fact be the easy way out for many,but others might have had tougher choices to make which led them to publicly recant their faith.For example some one who had a wife and children but no-one to take care of them when they died would probably have chosen recantation to martyrdom.Also remember that many who PUBLICLY recanted would have probably SECRETLY unrecanted their recantation.
Note:The early Christians in the Roman Empire faced the same problem of those who publicly recanted their faith but later wished to rejoin after persecution was over.

[Technomancer]

The choice is not an easy one as we would presume it to be.Martrydom would in fact be the easy way out for many,but others might have had tougher choices to make which led them to publicly recant their faith.

I tend to think this reinforces my original point about Christian literature. The good literature, which stands out as such in mainstream literary circles, does so because it does not shun the complexities of real life. Endo's "Silence" does not present us with any easy answers, nor does it trivialize just how hard the choices are for the people involved. Unlike some contemporary Christian authors, the problems involved are not simple black/white choices, where the path of the True Christian(TM) is always clear.

[rab357]

Well said, brother Technomancer. BTW, I think it's funny. I know you've read the post by Cross and the replies to it, and yet you are still going on about Endo and his "Silence". Sorry, I just think that's funny. No negative connotation to that, I think it's neat, you'll just have to forgive a fellow brother's humor at things such as that.

Hugs, kisses, and lots of ammo.

[Cross]

http://users.binary.net/polycarp/graven.html

Probably will be viewed as: Oh he gave up, he couldn't prove his statements and blah blah.

I speak what I feel even if I have not researched...forgive me... It is how I am. I have researched and read this essay/article and agreed completely with this author.

With that I will say my views have changed (yes, my thoughts can change as quick as the wind if I am proved wrong) so basically what is my view now? As long as you give credit where credit is due (to God) then what you do is fine...as long as an individual is not worshipping these objects, it is fine.

So there ya go.

Additional reads on graven images if interested

http://www.ariadne.org/studio/michelli/latemedgraven.html

http://www.protomartyr.org/image.html

On another thing: this topic of mine deserves to be in another thread as it has completely dominated and changed the course this thread was going... sorry about that. With that I would like to say that from this point on any references to my posts be directed to a new thread and the point of Mainstream vs Christian be argued here on out. Thanks.

[GhostontheNet]

With that I will say my views have changed (yes, my thoughts can change as quick as the wind if I am proved wrong) so basically what is my view now? As long as you give credit where credit is due (to God) then what you do is fine...as long as an individual is not worshipping these objects, it is fine.

Fair enough, I'm glad. While a ban upon statues among the Jews would be necessary because of a cultural tendency to create idols and worship them, which would probably be alot worse if they pretended they made them to be art around authorities. Among modern Westerners however, the tendency is more to simply worship one's belly - and people have a great difficulty with taking the worship of statues seriously at all. Thus, in our culture this is not nearly as much of a problem.

[Syreth]

With that I will say my views have changed (yes, my thoughts can change as quick as the wind if I am proved wrong) so basically what is my view now? As long as you give credit where credit is due (to God) then what you do is fine...as long as an individual is not worshipping these objects, it is fine.

Wow, I think that is really commendable, personally. Most people, if proven wrong, will not even openly admit it. Thanks for being willing to listen to others, actually research the topics and strive for some humility instead of just blindly disagreeing. It's refreshing, really. ^^

[creed4]

One thing I think is odd is that when some of talk about doing Art for money. In 1 Timothy 5:18 It states that a worker deserves their wages. We are comanded To support our pastors so they can minister to us. The same thing is true with those who minister with their art we need to support them so that they can so so.

[revolution]

I agree with all of you and this is a question that I have been struggling with myself lately. I feel that as Chrstians we have set ourselves in a sort of box that contains all of these rules that really don't have a basis of fact in the Word. I find myself looking at mainstream movies such as the Matrix and V for Vendetta because they have those concepts that as a Christian we should hold dear. Ideals like true freedom from fear of man and realizing that the world is not what it seems. It is said in the Word that the true battle can not be seen. If we finally begin producing stuff that truly glorifies the Lord then it is going to catch attention; positive and/or negative. Because we are followers of the Lord we should be the ones striving for a rare quality of works and through that I feel that we can get the message across as well.

[Arnobius]

The choice is not an easy one as we would presume it to be.Martrydom would in fact be the easy way out for many,but others might have had tougher choices to make which led them to publicly recant their faith.For example some one who had a wife and children but no-one to take care of them when they died would probably have chosen recantation to martyrdom.Also remember that many who PUBLICLY recanted would have probably SECRETLY unrecanted their recantation.
Note:The early Christians in the Roman Empire faced the same problem of those who publicly recanted their faith but later wished to rejoin after persecution was over.

It's interesting that you mention this since I was just reading the Patristic accounts of the martyrdoms of people like Ignatius, Justin Martyr and others. The Romans made it easy to recant. All they had to do was offer sacrifice to the Gods and denounce the "athiests" (Christians) [Some had fun with wordplay turning this denouncing into an affirmation of their own beliefs]. Then when the soft touch did not work, they were given dire warnings as to what would happen if they would not renounce.

Their going to their deaths in the arena were never easy but they were marked by joy because they did see it as a temporary affliction that would end with their eternal joining Christ.

I don't think it's ever fair to say martyrdom is the easy way out. When someone is called to it, they are called to choose in a horrible instant between the world they know and the God they believe in but have never seen.

As for the receiving back into the Church of those who recanted, it was always acknowledged as a serious wrong they were atoning from... for renouncing their faith to save their lives... and required a severe pennance before being brought back within the Church.