Mainstream vs. Christian

[rab357]

Consider:

Mainstream work is more popular than Christian work (books, comics, movies, video games, music, etc.). This is known by all. I wonder if Christian work will ever beat mainstream work in terms of quality (not sales or quantity) considering that a mainstream creator is not limited by the things that a Christian creator are. Seriously, Christian creators must abide by Biblical standards to create whereas a mainstream doesn't. I wonder because while God has freed us from eternal damnation, we find our hands tied when using God-given abilities to create work that gives glory to a freeing God. Or are our hands tied? Just a thought from a guy who really wants to see Christian versions of Neon Genesis: Evangelion, Metallica, The Matrix, etc. Remember, as far as quality of art goes, not popularity or sales. Please comment on this.

[Slater]

I suppose so. Christian authors don't have the funding that secular authors do, but we certainly aren't limitted. We just have to be more creative.

(btw, we're not allowed to say anything about NGE)

[GhostontheNet]

Consider:

Mainstream work is more popular than Christian work (books, comics, movies, video games, music, etc.). This is known by all. I wonder if Christian work will ever beat mainstream work in terms of quality (not sales or quantity) considering that a mainstream creator is not limited by the things that a Christian creator are. Seriously, Christian creators must abide by Biblical standards to create whereas a mainstream doesn't. I wonder because while God has freed us from eternal damnation, we find our hands tied when using God-given abilities to create work that gives glory to a freeing God. Or are our hands tied? Just a thought from a guy who really wants to see Christian versions of Neon Genesis: Evangelion, Metallica, The Matrix, etc. Remember, as far as quality of art goes, not popularity or sales. Please comment on this.

The problem isn't so much that we are incapable of producing good art in all fields, any blockhead who reads Dante or John Milton, or listens to Handel or Mozart knows that! The problem is that we define the bounds we can and cannot cross in artwork far more narrowly than the Bible ever would have and as a result we produce a lot of artwork without real substance.

[uc pseudonym]

I essentially agree with GhostontheNet on that subject. Christian authors haven't been dug a literary grave by God, they generally dig their own. Of course, there is also the fact that many Christians would condemn a great deal of things, which does limit the success of those authors that are trying.

(btw, we're not allowed to say anything about NGE)

Technically, we only do not allow discussion of Neon Genesis Evangelion. But yes, we generally stay well away from the line.

Just a thought from a guy who really wants to see Christian versions of

While I would like to see Christian works that are as well-funded, high quality (opinions vary here), and various as those titles, I don't think we should create "Christian version" of already existing titles. Ideally, we can create new works that can stand on secular criteria quite apart from their status as Christian.

[Raiden no Kishi]

My theory on the issue is that the reason Christian film/literature/music/clothing is generally inferior in quality is that the Christian industry largely focuses so much on the message that they lose quality of expression. I believe we should focus on the execution or performance ~ frankly, the message will take care of itself. One's worldview will come through in one's art. While we should take note of the messages we are sending, we should worry about getting people to listen ~ otherwise, the message is [to an extent] irrelevant. Not unimportant, mind you ~ it is the most important message of all ~ but it is moot if it is ignored due to subpar communication skills.

I agree with C.S. Lewis ~ we don't need more Christian writers/musicians/game designers/artists/filmmakers. We need more professional writers/musicians/game designers/artists/filmmakers who do what they do from a Christian worldview. My message to the Christian media is this: Focus on being the best in your field ~ and your field includes the mainstream. Treat them as your competition, because ~ whether you recognize it or not ~ they are. They are the standard you're being compared to.

.rai//

[Alice]

For some reason this thread reminds me of Pilgrim's Progress. That was a Christian work, certainly, but wasn't it a popular work too?

Certainly the times have changed, but people haven't. If a Christian work is good enough, and gets exposure in some way, it could certainly become as popular or more popular than many secular works.

I'm also reminded of the Left Behind books. Now, I haven't read them, I'm not interested in reading them, and they are not generally regarded as being high art (I'm sorry if this offends anyone), but they were popular, and even got non-Christians interested (and some saved).

So, yes, I believe it's possible.

[Arnobius]

I think part of the problem is that when some Christian artists become well known they tend to become mainstream (Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith), and write some material that is not specifically religious. Then you get the controversy on whether or not they "sold out."

Raiden no Kishi raises a good point. It will probably be better to have performers who are Christians than Christian performers if we want to avoid marginalizing things

[rab357]

Thanks for the feedback. Most people I talk to are a little stumped as what to say. I agree with you all, esp. uc pseudonym and Raiden no Kishi. I refuse to believe that Christian creators are stymied out of quality content because of carrying the message of Christ and Him crucified. I esp. like GhostontheNet's comment on the Bible not being nearly as narrow as people interpret. Let us show characters and tell stories of brokenness and God's grace rather than good Christians who are perfect and trying to save the poor heathens.

[Seppuku]

seriously we cant talk about evengalion? >.> alrighty then ^^;;.
im currently in the middle of a novel. but im afraid if ive takin too much creative liberty on biblical subjects. i just hope its not offensive.

[rab357]

Seppuku, whats the story about?

[ChristianKitsune]

I agree with many of the statements here. But I truly believe that good quality Christian Media can be created!

I think one reason why they feel they need to restrict themselves is because they don't want to say anything that would confuse people about God. Or say something that isn't biblically accurate..

I am in the middle of writing a story about angels and stuff. and I had to be REALLY careful about how I made them. I don't want to say something that would confuse people. I even put a disclaimer that said that not all of my descriptions were definately true.

It's a fine line...

Wait..Micheal W. Smith went Secular?

[Seppuku]

Seppuku, whats the story about?

well it started as arch angel fiction that i was writing when i got bored. now i started forming it into a novel about a demi god trying to fight his desire for power. satan wants to use him but he tries resist all temptation becuase he has served with god's archangels against the forces of evil for ages. tho becuase hes not quite an angel he has complete free will. it's quite intresting to read. tho i really am taking it farther than i would like.

[Arnobius]

I agree with many of the statements here. But I truly believe that good quality Christian Media can be created!

I think one reason why they feel they need to restrict themselves is because they don't want to say anything that would confuse people about God. Or say something that isn't biblically accurate..

I am in the middle of writing a story about angels and stuff. and I had to be REALLY careful about how I made them. I don't want to say something that would confuse people. I even put a disclaimer that said that not all of my descriptions were definately true.

It's a fine line...

Wait..Micheal W. Smith went Secular?

I heard he went Mainstream which is not necessarily the same thing. As I recall in the early or mid 90's he did an album that had some secular material. I lost track of him over the years so to be honest where he is nowadays I have no clue

[suribachi]

Michael W Smith and Amy Grant both released mainstream work under mainstream labels -- both got flack from some in the Christian Community for doing so which was too bad. Both really love the Lord. Sadly, sometimes grace can be lacking.

[Seppuku]

>< i hate it when people treat people badly for silly reasons.i remember when ms. grant had that divorse. <.< she was instantly hated by 1/4th of her fans.

a christain store near me stopped selling her cds for awhile

[Arnobius]

>< i hate it when people treat people badly for silly reasons.i remember when ms. grant had that divorse. <.< she was instantly hated by 1/4th of her fans.

a christain store near me stopped selling her cds for awhile

Well a Christian artist is generally expected to behave in a Christian manner in public. Given the strong words in the Bible on the subject, it would be a scandal. Yes Christians need to be forgiving but it is jarring when a publicly professing Christian performer is caught in a public scandal.

[GhostontheNet]

well it started as arch angel fiction that i was writing when i got bored. now i started forming it into a novel about a demi god trying to fight his desire for power. satan wants to use him but he tries resist all temptation becuase he has served with god's archangels against the forces of evil for ages. tho becuase hes not quite an angel he has complete free will. it's quite intresting to read. tho i really am taking it farther than i would like.

I have never bought the line that angels have no free will on the grounds that God says in Job that he charges angels with error (not equivalent with sin), and Paul says that we Christians will judge angels on judgment day.

[CAAOutkast]

We Need to get into the mainstream.

[mitsuki lover]

The problem is that we have created a 'Christian Ghetto' when it comes to the Arts and it will take decades before we can dig our way out of it.

[CAAOutkast]

The problem is that we have created a 'Christian Ghetto' when it comes to the Arts and it will take decades before we can dig our way out of it.

I don't like to hear that kind of attitude. Whatever happened to the power of prayer,Huh. With Gods help,We will make it out in years...If we don't give up that is.

steve

[uc pseudonym]

Perhaps I'm pessemistic, but I'm inclined to say that decades may be a reasonable estimate. Fortunately, that applies only to the overall field, and not to individual people or projects. I believe that we will see projects made by Christians that are accepted by mainstream audiences in the next few years (and it could be argued that such already exist).

I have never bought the line that angels have no free will on the grounds that God says in Job that he charges angels with error (not equivalent with sin), and Paul says that we Christians will judge angels on judgment day.

I agree. However, I think by saying "complete free will" he meant the additional ability to sin.

[Technomancer]

I don't like to hear that kind of attitude. Whatever happened to the power of prayer,Huh. With Gods help,We will make it out in years...If we don't give up that is.

One might argue that a large part of the problem is that the "Christian" genre does represent a giving up, inasmuch as it represents a desire to isolate oneself from the broader culture. The reality, in my opinion, is that such isolation dooms one to intellectual irrelevance.

Seriously, Christian creators must abide by Biblical standards to create whereas a mainstream doesn't. I wonder because while God has freed us from eternal damnation, we find our hands tied when using God-given abilities to create work that gives glory to a freeing God. Or are our hands tied?

I would tend to think that the artist's hands are tied not by Christianity, but by the trite moralizing of some influential parts of the target audience. If one wishes to satisfy such elements, I'm afraid the result will be similarily trite and shallow. Part of it, I think is the desire that one's heroes be morally upright people free of the failings and doubts of more ordinary mortals such as ourselves. Another problem is the desire for moral and intellectual simplicity. Ambiguity is to be shunned.

Note that this is not necessarily a problem faced by all Christian artists, but is does (in my opinion) afflict the "Christian" subculture. Those who have been successful are the ones who have preferred art and storytelling to trying to please a given audience group.

[Ashley]

Man, this subject hits close to home for me...not because I'm an aspiring artist/mangaka/writer, but because I'm passionate about the arts. I recently attended a conference called "Christianity and the Arts" at my school, and they hit on all of these things.

First off, I think just about any Christian involved in the media has to ask himself (or herself) a very important question: what's their main goal? Sadly, as many of you recognize, if you do "Christian" work, it tends to be ignored by the whole of society, but latched on to by those already in the loop, so to speak. (C'mon, when was the last time an unbeliever went to say, an Avalon concert or whatever?) But if you go "secular", the Christian world tends to disavow you simply because you don't mention the name Jesus every 2 sentences. So you basically have to pick: will you feed the flock, or sacrifice some blatant moralizing and the Christian community for the sake of evangelizing? It sounds clear cut, but I promise it's not--myself and several of my friends have all agonized over exactly what God wanted them to do with the talents they have.

Secondly, I agree with the comments everyone has made about the Christian industry as a whole: it tends to be sub-par copy-catting and so narrow-minded as to disown an artist like Sufjan Stevens (who has a song called "The Transfiguration" that's unabashedly Christian) just because he chooses to sell to a secular market and not play the "Christian" game. Why on earth it got this far, I have no idea...but I think it's not an inescapable destiny. Look at C.S. Lewis, whose masterpiece novel Til We Have Faces is rooted strongly in Greek mythology and never really mentions the name of Christ. Look at Tolkien, who made some loose allusions to Christianity but focused more on his storyline....the lines have been crossed in the past. I think UC's right--we need to focus on doing our best from a Christian worldview, and let God guide our choices from there.

[Arnobius]

I have never bought the line that angels have no free will on the grounds that God says in Job that he charges angels with error (not equivalent with sin), and Paul says that we Christians will judge angels on judgment day.

Hope this isn't considered denominational but the whole concept of Satan and the fallen angels is based on those angels who refused to serve God, so yes I would think they have free will

[creed4]

I think there are some very good Christian works. It the realm of film I think we are struggling the most. So often all the industry releases stuff on the end times.... It's get tring. We need to have a better balance of stories to tell

[Raiden no Kishi]

Me, I'd say [personally] that I would, given the choice between losing artistic quality to get into the Christian "scene" or stay true to my art and lose the support of mainstream Christianity, I'd heartily go with the latter. I'd try to get advertising in Christian stores and churches, but overall, it's their call, and I don't think it's worth sacrificing quality. If that's what it takes, they've got plenty of subpar fare to consume. I'd just count on you guys and girls to spread the word, since I know you're not captive to such a paradigm. ^_~

.rai//

[Technomancer]

Sadly, as many of you recognize, if you do "Christian" work, it tends to be ignored by the whole of society,

I don't think that I can entirely agree with that. I know I've mentioned several critically-acclaimed authors before who've written self-consciously Christian works (e.g. Shusako Endo, Graham Greene), and there certainly others whose religious backgrounds have influenced their works (Evelyn Waugh for example). More contemporary authors might include Mary Doria Russell, who wrote "The Sparrow", and more recently "A Thread of Grace".

[Cross]

I am rather new to anime, while watched for year I have never really got very deep into it so I apologize that I do not make references to any anime/manga in this post but the topic is just too good too pass up.

My honest opinion is rather that the world is just not ready for christianity as entertainment, it simply is not in form or fashion...how can you make fun out of self-sacrifice and giving up all to make a walk with Christ and simply put why must Americans make this realm a form of entertainment...its needless and it only promotes self-gain regardless of how you look at it, the money goes somewhere and it's a paycheck.

Jesus never preached about making a movie/game/anime/cartoon/book... He preached about loving one another, following God and putting nothing before Him.

Frankly put Christianity will never surpass mainstream entertainment because it is not meant to and that is because Christianity is not entertainment and if you think it is then I apologize when I say that you need to re-evaluate things.

This probably will offend others, especially if you are in the industry of making christianity more fun or "acceptable" to others, but to me it is just conforming to the worldy view and slapping God on it... this is not right in my book and I apologize if I do offend anyone but I feel what I say is true and that I need to share it.

[Ashley]

Not all of us are out to make money in the name of Christ--after all, that's the driving force behind His holy wrath in the temple, proclaiming that the priests had turned what was holy into something to be sold. While that certainly exists, I think most sincere Christian artists are simply trying to figure out how to best use their talents. They don't want to squander them by doing it just for gain, but to blatantly Christianize, so to speak, sometimes forces one to lose the whole point of creating art.

I know I've mentioned several critically-acclaimed authors before who've written self-consciously Christian works (e.g. Shusako Endo, Graham Greene)

While I agree with your point, I'm not sure you can cite Endo fairly. I've read Silence, and I didn't think it was particularly favorable to Christianity.

[Cross]

I apologize but I am pretty strict on my views of christianity and any form of entertainment or using it as art to me... is idolism, with that I also do not believe in artwork portraying Christ, apostles, the cross... anything.

Just my bias'd opinion tis all.

Edit: I apologize, I meant Graven Images not Idolism. although it probably plays a part I was more geared toward the images one.