Anime "Purists"

[Bobtheduck]

I'm not a purist by ANY means... I like dubs, provided they're well acted, true to the spirit of the original, and don't change names or music... Music is one thing I never like seeing dubbed (short things like "cooking is so fun" I don't care about) However, as of now, I can't understand Japanese well enough to watch anime without it being dubbed or subbed, and especially recently, I can't always look at the screen... I like something I can hear, and not have to see sometimes... So, I like certain shows dubbed. Nadesico, Azumanga Daioh (sorry, but Osaka and Chiyo are just... better in the dub in my opinion. Well, Osaka is half and half... I like them both, but the dub is the one I got used to, and Chiyo's Japanese voice is just plain annoying... Think that's the same one that did Iris in Sakura Wars, and she's annoying...) Not only that, but missing the Japanese puns, we have to have SOMETHING and that is something the subs don't offer, at least on ADV's subs, so I'd rather watch their dubs in that case. Though their puns may be very creative, I just think English is more colorful than Japanese... I mean, I can only hear "baka" so many times before it loses it's impact, ya know? I know, I know... I'm going over to the dark side.

[uc pseudonym]

Though gravedug, the discussion in this thread isn't too repetitive, so I'll let it continue.

What ALSO irritates me like crazy is when they mispronounce character names with an english accent, for example. Sakura, in a subbed anime, they say it like "sa-ku-rah" really fast. In some dubbed animes, they say "sah-KOO-RUH" and stuff.

Though conversely, the Japanese have a pretty dismal track record in terms of pronunciation of words in other languages. Or, in many cases, the issue isn't even of pronunciation, but the fact that they've horribly slaughtered anything approaching accuracy or coherency.

Oh yeah, and let's not forget the ability of subtitles to take the sting out of bad dialogue. It's a lot harder to be mad when you have to piece together the voice and the words before you can figure out that it stinks. And if something has a really dumb name you can just use the Japanese name and suddenly it's cool and exotic, even if it's still dumb in Japanese.

That's very true. Naruto comes to mind in this case.

Yes that one is a paradox, so I haven't watched it
Though more seriously I suppose the purist thing to do is watch the original language.

I realize that you're joking, but I would say that anyone who seriously feels that film is a paradox must immediately surrender any claims of being a purist.

[Sakura15]

Sometimes I do watch the subbed because there arent any dubbed of what im watching I watched DNangel subbed, and that was awesome ^-^

Mostly though I watch dub, simply because I sometimes like the voices better, I know alot of people will disagree with me but I could NOT stand the japanese voices for Fruits basket...Yuki's voice was a girl...no..just no..lol. I like the english voices better for that one.

If America had started making anime first, no one would mind that it was in english, would they?

heh probably not.

There are good dubs and there are good subs lol, but I prefer watching them in english if I can.

[creed4]

The only thing I don't like is when they cut the anime, I like to watch thing in their entirity

[Kaligraphic]

I like my anime really pure - I only watch raw broadcast anime.

No, even more, I don't even compromise by putting it on a screen, I watch the original radio waves.

Wait, I'm more of a purist than that - I only watch the original masters.

Wait, I'm even more of a purist than that, I only watch anime in the minds of its creators.

In fact, I'm such a purist that I don't even watch any anime because it's all corrupted by being brought to a viewable form.




Bah. Watch or don't, I don't care.

[Nate]

Not only that, but missing the Japanese puns, we have to have SOMETHING and that is something the subs don't offer, at least on ADV's subs, so I'd rather watch their dubs in that case.

That's another interesting point, the puns in Japanese. Usually the puns are based on the fact that two words sound similar in Japanese. However, not knowing a single word of Japanese, the puns are lost on me. Many companies include a little note explaining it, but you know what they say. If you have to explain a joke, it isn't funny.

I'd much rather see a good English pun than a Japanese language joke any day of the week, because, well, Japanese jokes just aren't funny to me, since I don't know it. The problem is most dubs use bad English jokes, which isn't any better.

And if something has a really dumb name you can just use the Japanese name and suddenly it's cool and exotic, even if it's still dumb in Japanese.

You know, One Piece comes to mind here. I'm watching Kaizoku fansubs, and for the first few episodes or so, I think they translated the word "nakama" as "shipmates." This led to a HUGE backlash from fans, saying "No, you have to keep the original Japanese word because it means more than just shipmates blah blah blah." They also put characters' attacks in English, such as translating Zoro's "Onigiri" into "Demon Slash." This was met with backlash as well, and the attacks were changed into their original Japanese.

This made me a bit irritated. It's hard to tell what exactly Luffy is using half the time because I don't know Japanese; I had to ask Myoti one time "So does this word mean net, or what?" because I had no clue. To me, I'm trying to watch a translation of the dialogue. That's the point of having subtitles, because it's a translation. If you have all these Japanese words in the subtitles, what's the point of the subtitles in the first place? It ruins the purpose of having them.

Well...that's my rant for the day. XD;;

[mitsuki lover]

One good reason to buy the official DVDs is that they come with both dubbed and subbed versions intact and you can watch both at your leisure.Also there is very little difference between the way the dubbed and subbed versions are translated.

[Radical Dreamer]

Honestly, it doesn't make much difference to me. I mean, if I'm watching a series that has a horrendous dub*coughcoughsailormooncoughcough*, I'll watch the sub. But, if I'm watching a show where I want to multi-task while watching, I'll watch the dub. There are some shows where I prefer the dub over the sub (Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, FullMetal Alchemist, Rurouni Kenshin), but at the same time, I have certain shows where I prefer the sub, mostly because there's no choice for the dub, but also because the dubs are just bad (Full Moon wo Sagashite, Air, Sailor Moon, Whisper of the Heart, Utawarerumono, etc.).

It really depends on the person's preference, but to say that someone who doesn't watch everything subbed isn't a fan of anime is just rediculous.

[Arnobius]

I realize that you're joking, but I would say that anyone who seriously feels that film is a paradox must immediately surrender any claims of being a purist.

Yes it was a joke... sort of. At the time the anime came out I was studying Japanese and I found the watching of anime helped because Japanese was a logical language and it was possible to make observations that turned out to be true when I asked my teacher for confirmation. So I picked this up not knowing it was English only. Because it was English language it was of no use to me. Luckily Suncoast was the place "where everyone knows your name" for me so they let me get a refund.

So I guess when defining my purist tendencies, I would say:

1. I want to watch my movies in the Original Language, unedited except by subs (this applies to other foreign movies as well)
2. I have no real interest in an anime which was done in English as the original language, because of my interest in hearing it in Japanese

THEREFORE: It is not an inconsistancy of purism to not watch Bloodlust at all

Edit: and in case you're wondering, I put on captioning when I watch ENGLISH movies as well. It just seems natural for me

edit 2: Radical Dreamer has a point about multi tasking and subs. Perhaps it's why I don't watch much TV any more since it forces me to sit still.

[ChristianKitsune]

I will sometimes watch both. I mean I like either. If the dub is bette rI watch the dub..if the sub is better I will watch the sub...

I think the Early ADV stuff like samurai X is a good example I HATED the dub version...so I watched it in sub..

The FB dub, imo isn't as good as the sub...monotone and me don't mix... ^^;

I guess in this case I am with Steeltemplar when he says I will watch it in whatever form fits it best artistically. In most cases, for me, the Sub fits that.. however, if I can't find a sub version, such as watching a show on Cable TV..then I will deal with dub.. ^_^

[Arnobius]

For me the original language preference came from before I got into anime. It came when I was into Hong Kong Film Noir, watching Chow Yun Fat movies. Sometimes you had no choice but to get the dubbed or cut versions, but even then I thought it sounded better with the Chinese than the dubbed English

[Rocketshipper]

I don't really mind it when people simply express a prefrence for watching subbed or raw anime over dub, everyone has their opinions. What really annoys me is the people who have unrealistic views of the quality of japanese versions of the show, and bash dubs just because they are dubs. I've met a few people like this: they think that dubs shouldn't exist at all, that any show (Japanese, American or from any other country) should only be viewed in the language of it's country, and ANY dub inevitably ruins the show. Even if they happen to like a few dubs they would NEVER admit even the possibility that the dub could be more enjoyable than the original version of the show. When it comes to anime they think, despite it being humanely impossible, that the japanese voice actors ALWAYS turn in perfect performances and are ALWAYS cast perfectly for whatever role they are playing, even if the same character is played by more than one actor!! (how can multiple VA's be perfectly cast as the same character?) They never admit to disliking a japanese voice actor, and will never criticize their acting or casting, though they could go on and on about how horrible most dub actors are. Finally, small nitpicky (IMO) things, like translated credit sequences or suffixes being left out, will cause them to refuse to buy domestic releases. Personally I kind of feel sorry for them, because I can't imagine how they can enjoy an anime or manga if something like translating the sound effects in a manga would totally ruin the expierence for them.

[mitsuki lover]

When all is said and done I really tend to ignore "purists" and watch anime whichever way I feel.Although getting into the subtitle menu is a bit of a pain at times.

[teigeki_calesa]

I don't really mind it when people simply express a prefrence for watching subbed or raw anime over dub, everyone has their opinions. What really annoys me is the people who have unrealistic views of the quality of japanese versions of the show, and bash dubs just because they are dubs. I've met a few people like this: they think that dubs shouldn't exist at all, that any show (Japanese, American or from any other country) should only be viewed in the language of it's country, and ANY dub inevitably ruins the show. Even if they happen to like a few dubs they would NEVER admit even the possibility that the dub could be more enjoyable than the original version of the show. When it comes to anime they think, despite it being humanely impossible, that the japanese voice actors ALWAYS turn in perfect performances and are ALWAYS cast perfectly for whatever role they are playing, even if the same character is played by more than one actor!! (how can multiple VA's be perfectly cast as the same character?) They never admit to disliking a japanese voice actor, and will never criticize their acting or casting, though they could go on and on about how horrible most dub actors are. Finally, small nitpicky (IMO) things, like translated credit sequences or suffixes being left out, will cause them to refuse to buy domestic releases. Personally I kind of feel sorry for them, because I can't imagine how they can enjoy an anime or manga if something like translating the sound effects in a manga would totally ruin the expierence for them.

Right on. They refuse to admit that even Japanese VAs tend to have really annoying voices, especially the shrieky ones.(Good dubs cure it )

Yep, like in my previous posts, those people are what make me go ballistic, especially the nitpickers and those with what you say are UNREALISTIC views. We have plenty of those here in the Philippines, and at the expense of our really talented local dubbers. Sad indeed.

[Maledicte]

I agree with Rocketshipper and Teigeki, sometimes the Japanese VA's can be really bad, even if you don't know what they're saying. They can sound as cheesy and over-the-top as any other actor, or have annoying voices (high-pitched female ones are the most common culprits).

[Arnobius]

I think it cuts both ways. I have seen dub fans complain about how stupid subtitles are, and attacking the Japanese VA's is on the same level as attacking the dubs.

You may not see them on CAA but I have met dub fans who were just as obnoxious and one sided as the stereotyped purists are supposed to be.

Subtitle fans tend to get resentful when the company cuts corners on the subtitling, doing a bad translation (anything from Manga Video) or mistimed subs (the Tenchi Muyo DVDs from Pioneer), forgetting to actually translate lines (Early Ruroni Kenshin and Ranma for example) or having to put up with English overlays (Too many to count)... essentially doing a shoddy job on the product we pay for. If the American distributors would do a decent job on subtitles there would probably be fewer resentments from the sub fans.

[termyt]

Can I just say that if you are truly a purist, why do you watch your anime with subtitles? The original language track should be enough for you. If you can't watch it as it's creator intended in its original format, why bother watching it at all?

I'm for anime any way you can get it. Good dubs, bad dubs, subtitles, and hacked to pieces. I've loved and hated them all.

[Arnobius]

Can I just say that if you are truly a purist, why do you watch your anime with subtitles? The original language track should be enough for you. If you can't watch it as it's creator intended in its original format, why bother watching it at all?

I'm for anime any way you can get it. Good dubs, bad dubs, subtitles, and hacked to pieces. I've loved and hated them all.

If I spoke Japanese fluently you can bet the subs would be off. Remember the purist tends to qualify their preference by saying "when the subs are turned off." But I don't think that fluency is a condition of purism. Subtitles are just as necessary for the sub fans as American VAs are for the dub

However, I have purchased several foreign movies that had subs included as preferred over the American release of the same movie if that matters

[ChristianKitsune]

Umm one Q.

WHy does it matter?! ^^;

[Arnobius]

[quote="ChristianRonin"]Umm one Q.

WHy does it matter?! ^^]
Essentially it's preferences. For example, part of my interest is in the culture itself: if it comes to a cultural reference in a joke, I personally would prefer to have the joke translated as it is and have a liner note explaining. Others might not care and be more interested in the entertainment value.

Obviously those two views are occasionally going to be at odds. If the translator makes changes, the person who values the accuracy and culture more is going to be annoyed, while the person who prefers the entertainment might be bored with a more literal interpretation.

I think these preferences tend (though not 100%) to fall along the sub/dub lines, and lately there has been better attention paid to those preferences, so a subtitled translation tends to be much more accurate and of better quality now then they were a few years ago.

As for the dubs? Well I don't like and don't watch them so I don't know how well they meet the satisfaction of the dub fans. I would hope it's satisfactory, given what DVDs cost nowadays. I figure that so long as the company subtitles well and doesn't overlay, I'm happy with the part of the DVD I use and I hope the dub fans are happy with the part they use.

But what I don't like is being told by a dub fan that accuracy discrepancies are not important. Accuracy of translation and quality subtitle placement for a sub fan is about as important as good dub VA's are for a dub fan. A bad translation or mistimed sub is about as annoying as a dub VA who sounds like he's reading off of a script.

[kyouki]

I almost only watch subbed anime. I'm addicted to Jap language. I only make exceptions when there are my favourite voice actors

[ChristianKitsune]

I didn't mean it that way...but I guess everyone has their preferences.... So....why downplay what they are?

not that anyone is..but I know a lot of people who say "YOU AREN'T A REAL FAN BECAUSE YOU DONT WATCH IT RAW OR SUBTITLED!"

umm I am a fan...but not so obesses that I care if it's raw.. I do like subtitled...but dub isn't horrible..and if I can get a dub for free by watching cable...I am watchin the dub....

it just annoys me when people look down on others for their preference...and tries to act all superior...

[Gypsy]

Personally, I watch anime for the art, and the voices are secondary. I prefer whatever I start watching first - if I watched the series first ast a fansub, I'll watch the sub when I later buy the series. If I pick up an ADV dvd, usually I'll watch the dub just because I think they do a really good job. Like many others have said, there is no right or wrong, and it all comes down to preference. The only time it actually matters is when you're watching anime with another anime fan.

[Bobtheduck]

Right on. They refuse to admit that even Japanese VAs tend to have really annoying voices, especially the shrieky ones.(Good dubs cure it )

Case-in-point: Chiyo from Azumanga Daioh... She sounded about 3 in the Japanese...

Another great example, Goku on DBZ... Now, while the dub was flawed in other ways, the original had some annoying voices... Like Goku's, for instance... And you can't tell me that was because I watched the dub first... Because I didn't... I watched it RAW japanese for about a year or so before I got Cartoon Network (on international Channel) trying desperately to figure out what was going on (other than the fighting, which doesn't really tell you anything except "Those two don't like each other" DBZ's plot is almost entirely revealed in dialogue with no visual clues as to what they're saying...) My memory is fuzzy on this, but I think the Japanese voice for freiza sounded better...

I started on dubs, like most fans did... I wouldn't even touch subs for the first couple years of my fandom. It was Sailormoon that got me into subs, because of how horribly butchered it was... Now I've seen the best and worst of dubs, the best and worst of subs, and the best and worst of the Japanese actors... So, it really depends on the anime for me, but am swinging to dub because it's just... easier... When I start really pushing my Japanese, I'll go back to subs or even just watch it raw. I have all of nadesico to watch raw for that...

The extent of my purism is that names and music aren't changed, and that a Japanese audio track and accurate translation sub script are available... And not exclusively a dub following subtitle track (which I've seen, actually) And that they call her Aeris, not Aerith, but I'll just have to grind my teeth when those moments arrive -_- Let's not get into the nehelenia/nepherenia debates (since Naoko could have very well ment it to be a pun in the first place, in other words meaning it to be BOTH spellings, since she is a big fan of flowers AND mythology... And since SuperS sorta sucked)

[Arnobius]

Well the names I think depend on the author intent. Some sounds like "th" do not work in Japanese, so they have to adapt using "su" or "shi." So if the Japanese create their own English names, then that spelling should be used and if they are trying to render a Western name I have no real problem with the conversion [for example I seem to recall "Anthy" from Utena was pronounced "Anshi"], but if they don't have either the spelling or the intent, then yes they should use the name as rendered in kana.

And yes... "ne-he-re-ne-a" (as it seems to be pronounced) is a royal pain to put into English, and I have no idea what they meant

[Evangelion]

In cases like Cowboy Bebop and Princess Mononoke, I think the English dubs improved the anime considerably and the voice acting was much more superior to the Japanese seiyuu. Personally I think people tend to overly prefer Japanese seiyuu's just so they can seem more snobbish.

[Arnobius]

Actually... no. I preferred the subs on the grounds I thought they were better. Some of us do like hearing it acted instead of re-enacted. Admittedly Bebop had an outstanding dub, one I could actually watch for the most part.

The only Miyazaki film where I preferrd the dub was Kiki's Delivery Service because I liked Phil Hartman's version of Jiji

Of course, it is interesting that Bebop is still considered one of the best dubs five years after the series came out... which implies most are not that good

[Evangelion]

Well, I was speaking on certain cases like Cowboy Bebop where the English dubbing is in fact superior, but it is snubbed anyway. Depending on the voice acting, it isn't so much a re-enactment as it is done from scratch (using different slangs, different wording, better concepts, and the like to account for things that may be lost in translation) in order to produce a better work. Princess Mononoke is another example, the voice actors were much better in the English version than the Japanese.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[uc pseudonym]

Actually... no. I preferred the subs on the grounds I thought they were better.

I don't think he was targeting you with that comment. There are a fair number of my friends that I think the comment fairly applies to, but I would never assume that for all fans of subtitles.

Of course, it is interesting that Bebop is still considered one of the best dubs five years after the series came out... which implies most are not that good

That doesn't necessarily follow. It would if Bebop's dub was considered only par, but most people here have said it was excellent. Almost by definition, there cannot be excellent dubs being produced frequently. In any case, I think that dubs never receive this much support until a while after they have been released, so it is too early to determine if recent titles will later be acclaimed to similar levels as Bebop.

[Arnobius]

I don't think he was targeting you with that comment. There are a fair number of my friends that I think the comment fairly applies to, but I would never assume that for all fans of subtitles.

Well it was a blanket statement, so I figured I'd give a specific response of one sub fan who didn't think that way

That doesn't necessarily follow. It would if Bebop's dub was considered only par, but most people here have said it was excellent. Almost by definition, there cannot be excellent dubs being produced frequently. In any case, I think that dubs never receive this much support until a while after they have been released, so it is too early to determine if recent titles will later be acclaimed to similar levels as Bebop.

Actually Bebop was recognized for its talent at the time it was released and among anime fans I knew was considered an excellent dub. However few dubs seem to anywhere close in talent of that one. I don't know if it's because of budget or method of recording.

Personally I don't have a problem that people like dubs, but in general I don't like them because the voices seem to sound rather emotionless and the scripts seem to be too Americanized. But it's my opinion, not dogma that I expect people to follow