Wearing Black for Christ

[Nate]

LOL Nate, actually I made the blue comment up. I have never played Earthbound. Was I pretty close with a quote or somthing?

Yeah, in Earthbound, there's a cult called the Happy Happy Cult or something. Basically they wear blue suits and paint everything blue. That's what I thought you were talking about. XD

[Joshua Christopher]

that's true, but you can still be goth and be a christian, or wear black and be a christian.

I'm going to be a bit uncharacteristically serious for a moment.

Can you be a "goth" and be a Christian? Of course, that's not the problem. The problem is the message you're sending to other people. I'm sick of hearing this "I don't care what anyone else thinks about me" stuff. People, as Christians we are meant to be an example to the unsaved.

When you see this person:



What connatations come to mind? Like it or not, when one dresses that way, 99% of the time he or she is automatically assumed to be usual idea of a "goth". Being a person who listens to deathmetal and dabbles in occultic practices, or whatever.

You have to think about the messages you're sending my friends. While there is nothing inherently wrong with dressing like a "goth" in and of itself, the problem is that you're giving off a signal that is decidedly un-Christian. When most people see a group of hardcore gothic folks dressed all out in shiny black things adorned with spikes and chains and all that other stuff, they probably don't think "Hey, that looks like a group of nice young Christian folks!"

I myself don't have anything against the gothic style of clothing, to be honest. I try very hard to follow the "innocent until proven guilty" policy, meaning that I try very hard to never judge someone as un-Christian or whatever until I know for a fact if they are or aren't, regardless of clothing.

As far as wearing black goes, why is that even an issue? I don't wear all black, but most commonly I can be caught in a black T-shirt. Wearing "black" and dressing "goth" are two different things.

To restate my points; I'm totally fine with the whole gothy look myself, but we have to take into consideration what others think. The Lord may know your heart, but we ARE meant to be examples to others.

[Mave]

Just as you wisely pick some attires for certain functions, I would approach the -dark look- in a similar way. As some have urged, think about the personal mission God has given you. If you feel moved to reach out to a certain crowd who is relatively "naive" or would give to assumptions based on clothing, wouldn't you be willing to change your attire for the sake of His Kingdom? It can't hurt to consider God's mission over one's personal style at times.

Now, if you find yourself reaching out to a group who doesn't care about your clothing, be happy and enjoy wearing black/goth-like clothing and spread His word. XD (Note = I'm referring to goth fashion and 'goth-like.' I would like to think that I'm aware that the pure goth culture does not necessarily complement the Christian faith) I still think it's important to make that distinction clear to those you know.

The only time I would consider pulling off the black/Goth fashion is at an anime convention where (as UC puts it) someone will always dress way more radically so you don't have to worry about what ppl think of you.

Either ways, always watch your actions and words more than anything. Ppl may get distracted by outside looks but we deeply impact people with our words and actions.

[Rogie]

Very well put, Josh and Mave. I agree with their posts.

While I'm here, therefore, I might as well state my opinion: I don't really have one, aside from agreeing with the previous two posts. I've had very little interaction with goth people -- Christian or not -- so I know that I have no place to say much of anything.

However, on a funny note: When I was 16, I wore a black shirt and black shorts to school one day. Everyone gave me funny looks... Oh, did I fail to mention that I had a picture of Sylvester and Tweety on the black shirt?

So I was a goth-looking Looney Tunes lover that day, I guess. I don't know a lot of guys who are willing to wear anything with Tweety on it. But it was for Sylvester, of course.

A little humor for the thread, that's all.

[SnoringFrog]

I wear all black sometimes, and don't go for much color often. But I just wear it 'casue those ar emy most comfortable clothes, and it's fun to disappear into the dark to sneak up on a friend, and the black defintely helps with that.

[MorwenLaicoriel]

Actually, I recently been interviewing a 'gothy' friend of mine for a school project--and it's given me a LOT of insight into this sort of thing.

My friend, Kisa, likes to dress in a lot of black, is a HUGE fan of Tim Burton movies (particularly Corpse Bride and Nightmare Before Christmas), and she's a fan of horror films and games, among other things. I think that people often think she's a 'typical goth'. But, when you REALLY get to know her, she surprises you. She's a VERY solid Christian, one of her favorite animes is Hamtaro (yes...Hamtaro!)...and she told me that she likes to "make people think...and weird people out!"

Basically, I think she sort of feels like, in a way, part of the reason maybe God created her to like quote-unquote "odd" things is to help people open their eyes. Her Grandma has told her that before she started dressing that way she wouldn't talk to other girls who did, but now she goes up to them and starts to talk to them. Her grandmother isn't the only person who's been effected that way, either. She told me that you can't 'judge people for being their own kind of different", and she also told me that she believes we're all "the same bag of meat that make mistakes." It's REALLY refreshing to talk to her--she's not caught up in how a person looks, she's really more concerned with what a person is like on the inside. God himself looks at this--so I think that her opinions (regardless of what you may think about her tastes--they don't bother me, but maybe others would be, who knows) are something that people should really consider. Also, I think that God is REALLY using her to be a powerful witness to people--she told me that one of her friends was surprised when he found out she was a Christian--because she wasn't CONDEMNING him. She's being loving--without compromising her beliefs--and I think it's something that I should do more, and I think it'd be great to see other Christian teens making more of an effort to reach out like she is. She's really an inspiration to me--I look up to her.

So, to summerize--I don't think dressing in black or having 'dark' tastes is a problem, particularly if that's what God created you to be--and not only that, I think it can be a powerful witness.

[Debitt]

While I'm not entirely hot on the "gothed out" look, Morwen really does have a point - goths need witnessing just as badly as anyone else does, and seeing someone dressed in that sort of fashion and so clearly showing God's love is really powerful, not just to people who dress the same way. I know I've been blown away seeing it on more than one occassion.

Also, I think there's a difference between dressing in a certain way and sending a certain message. Chains, piercings in parts of the body I didn't know existed, tattoos with flaming skulls and the like - no, that doesn't send the right message, really. That doesn't mean the person decked out in that sort of stuff is a bad person by any stretch, but they do exude a certain air. However, I've seen plenty of goths dressed in a manner that was definitely of the "look" (heavy "decorative" eyeliner, black shirt, armwarmers, etc.), but they really didn't seem threatening or unapproachable to me.

EDIT: To sum that last paragraph up, there is "gothed out" and there is "....o_O Whoa..."

[GhostontheNet]

All righty right, I will express my regret that I have not seen or posted in this thread before now. Several people have mentioned http://www.christiangoth.com , but for my present purposes I will strongly reccomend the webpage http://www.gothic-charm-school.com/ which will when read from an outsider's perspective be useful in offsetting stereotypes, such as from one sadly misinformed poster who acts as if the gothic was founded upon the principles of satanic ultraviolence. The truth is, first of all, the word gothic, being derived from the Germanic tribe which sacked the Roman empire, and has been used throughout history as a synonym for "crude and unrefined". A good example of this definition in action would be the painting "American Gothic", which has a rather ordinary looking man and woman on a farm, except that the man looks rather irritated with his threatening pitchfork ready to chase the poor painter away if his patience is ended. This term was applied to describe the older cathedrals designs with their rough edges and gargoyles, and this cathedral application was then later applied to darker novels which had the feel of these cathedrals at night. Now, the gothic movement had its beginnings in the positive punk movement ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk ) which was characterized by a lack of the more riot-esque behavior of other punks at performances. The punks had/have (depending on whether one takes the "punk is now dead" view) the undergirding narrative of consistent nonconformity with a corrupt society, applied in music with a strong energy applied to performances and music. This newer style of punk music which became dubbed "goth" though, was a lot more introspective and moody, with more subdued vocals taking on an ethereal quality. The term "gothic" was first applied by press or by self to bands like Joy Division or what would become Siouxie and the Banshees for, once more, the rough edge like the older cathedrals (for example, it is said Joy Division's songs didn't really end at the end of the song, they just fizzled out into nothingness). The color black in this scene was originally largely a reaction to the oh-so colorful and cheerful disco fashion that circulated at the time which is still rather infamous.

The horror influence gothic is a lot more well known for began with the heavily sarcastical song by The Bauhaus called Bela Lugosi is Dead. It's said the influence of horror upon the gothic aesthetic and music began tongue in cheek, much like this song, although the gloomy atmosphere fit rather well with the introspectiveness of the genre. The real gothic music is generally pretty solidly underground, usually requiring special orders if you want it from an ordinary CD store. As Wikipedia writes, with me putting frequently heard genres and important points in bold:

By the mid-1990s, styles of music that were heard in venues that goths attended ranged from gothic rock, death rock, darkwave, industrial, EBM, ambient, experimental,synthpop, shoegaze, punk rock, black metal, 1970s glam rock (not to be confused with later glam rock), techno music, indie rock, to 1980s dance music. This variety was a result of a need to maximize attendance from everyone across the alternative music scene, particularly in smaller towns, and due to the eclectic tastes of the members of the subculture; but it also signaled new shifts in attitude. Gothic rock was originally clearly differentiated from industrial and heavy metal by older participants in the alternative scene, but newcomers and media misconceptions blurred the boundaries in the nineties as gothic rock became significantly less popular in the US and UK. Thus while industrial or heavy metal bands such as Marilyn Manson, Jack Off Jill, Nine Inch Nails, Type O Negative, Lacuna Coil, Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, Slipknot, AFI, and Mortiis were often labeled as "goth" by the media, this categorization was strongly resisted by longstanding goths. Even more confusion was added with the rise of gothic metal, with such bands consciously using gothic imagery from the dark ages in their own music and appearance and started even following fashion trends indistinguishable from older goth ones. Arguments about which music is and is not goth became an ever more significant part of how the subculture tried to define itself.

The other significant development of the nineties was the popularity of electronic dance bands such as VNV Nation and Covenant in the goth scene. The rise of what has been called cybergoth music and style, which has much in common with techno/synthpop, caused bitter divisions between its fans and those firmly attached to the analog and/or guitar based sound of gothic rock. Bands with a darkwave sound or those such as Soft Cell, or The Cruxshadows, which combine an electronic and gothic rock sound, appeal to both sides to some extent. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth ) [/QUOTE]

Here we also see the progressive influence of underground electronic music on the genre, begun by the darkwave (New wave of romanticism in rock and roll with a dark spin) group Lycia has had a lasting but much debated role in the genre as it presently is. For all this electronic influence, you'll hear a lot of stuff like Industrial, which I would define as subversive cyberpunk music conjuring images of dystopia, machinery, and government sanctioned or nonsantioned violence, though usually more in condemnation than sanction. It is important to note that even rivetheads, that is fans of Industrial music, do not consider the groups in the "Not Gothic" Wikipedia list to be Industrial because they have sold out their authenticity to mainstream labels. For anyone interested in hearing out these styles of music, they may want to take a listen to stations like Tormented Radio at http://www.tormentedradio.com/ and ChristianIndustrial.net at http://www.christianindustrial.net . Some of my personal favorite Gothic and Industrial bands, both saecular and Christian together would be The Sisters of Mercy, Lycia, The Bauhaus, Saviour Machine, The Awakening, Fearful Symmetry, ThouShaltNot, Audio Paradox, and Circle of Dust.

Here I will make the important 3rd hand point drawn from a sociologist cited in a industrial musicology doctoral thesis - If society is percieved to be healthy, nonconformity with it's ways is a social virus to be quarantined, supressed and contained. However, if society is ill, deviance from it's norms is to be seen as healthy and helpful, a step in the right direction (although sporadically mistepping in trailblazing). As it so happens the Bible teaches that the sin of mankind has had far reaching and horrible effects, that those who were seriously forced to deal with these things on the collective level were inspired to sackcloth and ashes, very strange behaviour, and strong warnings - even Christ's prelude John the Baptist had the strongly subversive message that it was not in fact only the impure Gentiles who had to be baptized, but the entire Jewish nation too (and yes, the Gospel's description of his garb is a more specific description of what sackcloth actually is). Even in the Eastern Orthodox iconography, Yeshua Christ Himself is frequently shown wearing black, which would match up well with the Man of Sorrows acquanted with grief who bore our iniquities and transgressions with Him always, in both life and death, ala Isaiah 53 and the way it's used in the Gospels.

So me, I'll wear my sackcloth and ashes, knowing all the evil I see in the world and also in myself, and the innocent people who die as a consequence of greed and blind eyes, even my savior was one such when He took it all upon Himself. Oh yes, indeed, my garb is all about sin and death, exposing truth to light. It is a laced collared and cuffed funeral inspired garb with it's icon being the recurring black rose - in rememberance of my savior whose blood I drink monthly, in rememberance of my own funeral in my co-crucifixion and resurrection with Christ that I may live according to the will of God who knows all and not my own, and in rememberance of those who suffer and die as a consequence of failure to conform with that will, especially the innocent. The fact of the matter is that I'm a sinner, and anybody who reads this is one too. Now, when I look at a fellow goth, or anyone else whose dress does not conform to the norm, I do not assume that "Oh, this one must be a great sinner", unless they combine it with some other reason like looking like a cheap hooker as well, but even then, I really don't know the measure of the heart.

The gothic social itself scene seems to depend on attending gothic club nights as well as a heavy presence on the 'Net. When you get down to it, alot of the problems which are pitfalls within the gothic scene are pitfalls within our society in general really, with much more ado than deserved. However, the current obscurity of the music genre combined with the cynically mass produced gothic clothing at Hot Topic has caused a large diffusion of people who don't really have a handle on the subculture but think they do, who do various things which unfairly tarnish our reputation. As religion in the goth scene goes, first of all actual satanism is very rare. One will much more often see atheism and agnosticism. It does share a higher proportion of Wiccans than the average population, but it also has a lot of people in all the mainstream religions including Christianity.

[Cap'n Nick]

That's great...if you sit down every person that sees you and make them read that little history lesson. Clothing is a language and the way you're speaking it sounds like replacing the words "Big Mac" with "I'll shove pipe cleaners down your throat" and wondering why somebody throws Coke in your face every time you try to get a cheeseburger.

I did like the Gothic Charm School site, though. Good advice for anyone, regardless of clothing preference!

[K. Ayato]

Thanks, Lynx, for putting up christiangoth.com, as I used that site to get some facts about the Goth sub-culture to get references for the story I'm working on. I wanted one of my characters to be a Goth, but I didn't want to base it on stereotypes.

One thing that sticks in my memory from the facts I printed out was this: A lot of people who are NOT Goths wear black, and a lot of Goths DON'T wear black.

[MorwenLaicoriel]

That's great...if you sit down every person that sees you and make them read that little history lesson. Clothing is a language and the way you're speaking it sounds like replacing the words "Big Mac" with "I'll shove pipe cleaners down your throat" and wondering why somebody throws Coke in your face every time you try to get a cheeseburger.

What, though, is wrong with wearing black? How does black suddenly symbolise "I mean to do bodily harm to you"? I can understand you thinking that if the person has tons of skulls dripping all over them, or if they wear shirts with violent slogans on them--but not all 'goths' are like that.

ALSO, your 'clothing is a language' arguement applies to ALL clothing types as well, right? 'Preppy' is a style that's recently been associated with slutty popstars (Britney Spear's school girl outfit, anyone?) and the (near?)pornographic catalogues of Ambercrombie and Fitch--does that mean that everyone who wears argyle sweaters and elements of a catholic-school-uniform look are automatically sluts? No!

Take, for example, that photo that someone posted earlier--to me, the only thing that indicates even the 'pipe cleaner' analogy you described is the spiked collar. Otherwise, it's just someone who has black clothing and more make-up than usual. Mimes sometimes wear a lot of black and make-up, too, but we don't assume they want to kill us (well, some people do, I suppose).

[Cap'n Nick]

I didn't say these messages were valid, only that they were present. They are present because a great number of people agree on them, not because they have any kind of basis in fact.

Not all kinds of black clothing send these messages. Some do. Other kinds of clothes, such as preppy styles, are also capable of sending offensive messages and should thus be used with care.

[MorwenLaicoriel]

But is it really the clothes that need to be changed, or the people looking at them?

[Cap'n Nick]

I'd really rather change the people. However, as I don't have the leisure to re-educate large sections of the population or to choose every person that sees my clothes, I find it easier to work within the existing vocabulary rather than assume an unorthodox meaning for my fashion and assume that everyone else is following what I say.

You do have to remember, if a person is discriminating against you because of your clothes, they probably need a lot of ministry. Are you going to let your clothes get in the way of this?

[USSRGirl]

[quote="Joshua Christopher"] To restate my points]

My point exactly Josh. Amen to that.

Like it or not folks, there ARE certain connotations that go with being a goth. It's the same as saying "I'm a Christian." People instantly know that you believe in Jesus as Lord, probably go to church, ect., ect. Saying "I'm a goth" lets people know that you BELIEVE in goth philosophy such as new age/wic practices, drugs, death, hopelessness, suicide, self-abuse, ect. Claiming that "not ALL goths are like that" is the same as saying "not ALL Christians think Jesus is God." That would be true...a very slim minority of extremely liberal churches/cults downplay Jesus' divinity or even deny it. HOWEVER, Christianity TEACHES Jesus is Lord just as goth TEACHES contrary new age doctrine. Thus, Christian goths is an oxy-moron.

[USSRGirl]

Oh one more thing...Christiangoth.com? Well...that's certainly a reliable unbiased source of information.

As for the Abercombie comment by Morwen...hrmmm...I could argue that the majority of Abercombi wearers are at least ditzy fluff heads or "almost"-Christians who really don't care who or what they are supporting as long as it looks
"SOOO CU-UTE!!" Come on, they can buy from other clothing brands who DON'T show naked people in their catalogues. X.x

[MorwenLaicoriel]

I'd really rather change the people. However, as I don't have the leisure to re-educate large sections of the population or to choose every person that sees my clothes, I find it easier to work within the existing vocabulary rather than assume an unorthodox meaning for my fashion and assume that everyone else is following what I say.

You do have to remember, if a person is discriminating against you because of your clothes, they probably need a lot of ministry. Are you going to let your clothes get in the way of this?

And for the goths who wouldn't talk to someone that they see as condeming them because you dress preppy? Are you going to let how you feel about THEIR clothes get in the way, either?

We don't care when people think we're judgemental or 'brain-washed' because we're Christians...why should we care when people assume we're "Trenchcoat Mafia" when we wear black?

For that matter, how do they even KNOW that a person's goth when they see them wearing black? That same person could've been wearing a red skirt and a sunhat the day before.

To give up and conform simply because "people don't care to learn" is a dangerous way to think as a Christian.

[Radical Dreamer]

As for the Abercombie comment by Morwen...hrmmm...I could argue that the majority of Abercombi wearers are at least ditzy fluff heads or "almost"-Christians who really don't care who or what they are supporting as long as it looks
"SOOO CU-UTE!!" Come on, they can buy from other clothing brands who DON'T show naked people in their catalogues. X.x

Excuse me, but I don't think that comment was entirely necessary. While I don't buy from Abercrombie myself, I happen to know some very solid people that do shop there, who are neither "ditzy fluff heads" nor "almost-Christians." I think your comment brings us back to the original point of this thread; however, in that we cannot judge people by what they wear, and that someone who judges another person based on their choice in clothing is just as shallow as the people you seem to be describing. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Cap'n Nick]

And for the goths who wouldn't talk to someone that they see as condeming them because you dress preppy? Are you going to let how you feel about THEIR clothes get in the way, either?

We don't care when people think we're judgemental or 'brain-washed' because we're Christians...why should we care when people assume we're "Trenchcoat Mafia" when we wear black?

For that matter, how do they even KNOW that a person's goth when they see them wearing black? That same person could've been wearing a red skirt and a sunhat the day before.

To give up and conform simply because "people don't care to learn" is a dangerous way to think as a Christian.

Absolutely...if you're referring to your morals. Clothes are not morals. I think that's the crux of this thread. That's why altering them to aid your ministry shouldn't be a big deal. Insisting on style at the expense of your message is.

[Rogie]

Time to calm things down, people. Let's not turn this into a brand-name flame war, either.

[holysoldier5000]

There are lots of different styles and colors of clothes. Hardly anyone dresses the same now days. But yet there is one set of clothing that we as Christians are called to put on no matter what. Colossians 3:12-14 says, “as God's chosen people, holy and dearly lovedâ€

[Doubleshadow]

[quote="holysoldier5000"] So are you hiding you compassion for others in the closet? Need to pull out that kindness from the drawers? Are humility, gentleness and patience still in the hamper? Forgiveness and love still at the clearers? The biggest question of all is, “have you put on your holy clothes today?â€

[holysoldier5000]

That is genius, and it helps the point to stick. Although, of course in my case it is: Are humility, gentleness and patience still in a pile on the floor?

Everyone one of us, you and me, at times we can get so caught up in the "selfish apparel." That oh so popular clothing line. The heartless t-shirt, the mean spirited sneakers, the blue-jeans of harshness, the necklace of pride, the jacket of anxiety, the begrudging bracelet, and the hat of indifference. It's a dangerous line of clothing that sucks us in, chews us up, and spits us out. And if there is anything that makes a Christian look ugly it is these articles of clothing. That is why Paul calls us to put on the "holy clothes." After all we are supposed to be Christ's representatives, making Christ look good, company uniform thing. The point is that when we loose our holy clothes in the mess of selfishness that we get them back out, grab the detergent of forgiveness, and clean up this mess of dirty sin we have gotten ourselves into. And Jesus is a good laundryman. There is no stain he can't get out. I am reminded of the last verse of a favorite song

"When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne."

God Bless
hs5k

[holysoldier5000]

…and there is one more thing to remember about the “holy clothes.â€

[holysoldier5000]

Sorry to post three times in a row but I had to post this song to go along with what I was saying in the above posts:

Would you be free from the burden of sin?
There's power in the blood, power in the blood;
Would you over evil a victory win?
There's wonderful power in the blood.

Would you be free from your passion and pride?
There's power in the blood, power in the blood;
Come for a cleansing to Calvary's tide;
There's wonderful power in the blood.

Would you be whiter, much whiter than snow?
There's power in the blood, power in the blood;
Sin stains are lost in its life giving flow.
There's wonderful power in the blood.

Would you do service for Jesus your King?
There's power in the blood, power in the blood;
Would you live daily His praises to sing?
There's wonderful power in the blood.

There is power, power, wonder working power
In the blood of the Lamb;
There is power, power, wonder working power
In the precious blood of the Lamb.

[GhostontheNet]

Well, moving from being satanists weilding knives in the old ultraviolence to being a bunch of somewhat strange people with odd ramblings about cosmic consciousness is itself major progress. I will strictly request from here on out however in light of USSRKomrade's previous demonstrated lack of knowledge that if she holds that goth is all about disseminating new age ideologies she pony up evidence that backs it up. No group is divisible from its history and group ideology, I may not be able to give a complete history in person every time, but I can keep my manners at tip-top shape, I can behave with charity to those with which I speak, even if they treat me with spite, and I can let them listen to the Sisters of Mercy or the Bauhaus if they wish, and I can behave as I really wish to at all times authenticly. Indeed, of all values held in high esteem in the gothic scene, behaving authenticly to one's self is extremely high on the list, and it is indeed very important to God also it would seem. If we're playing "the testimony damage" game, do the prophets who wore sackcloth, that is the Biblical garb of lamentation or very strong repentance, who did things like marry prostitutes or roast bread over feces at the orders of God (but did other people know that?) damage their testimony to their hope in the Messiah they forsaw? Hope is the looking forward to a time when things won't be as they are at the present - I'll wear white when Yeshua hands it to me. Yeshua Himself very often damaged his "testimony" by his scandalous associations with the notoriously wicked. And what is this so called "testimony" but a way of being like the mask-wearing (literal def. of "hypocrite") Pharisees who tried very hard to have the outward appearance of super-Jews but always failed to understand the truly important things of the Law and the Prophets like love, justice, and mercy. In the end, I leave with Ecclesiastes 7:1-4:

A good name is better than precious ointment,
and the day of death than the day of birth.
It is better to go to the house of mourning
than to go to the house of feasting,
for this is the end of all mankind,
and the living will lay it to heart.
Sorrow is better than laughter,
for by sadness of face the heart is made glad.
The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,
but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

[Joshua Christopher]

Well, if the upside-down cross did not originally mean anything anti-Christian, does that mean I'm going to go around with one on all of the time?

It seems to me like a lot of people are failing to realize that most people are going to make assumptions and judge you based on your outward appearance regardless of it being right or wrong. Hey, if you want to do that, it's your choice. Be my guest. As I've said before, personally I have no problem with that clothing style, even is it seems like a silly attempt to try and stand out... by dressing exactly like a large subculture, a lot of the time. But if you're into it, more power to you.

I suppose we could also argue that using R-rated language in every-day conversation is fine, since everyone knows there are plenty of G-rated words with the same meaning. Poop!

But I digress, this topic has already served its purpose. I'm not sure exactly what that is, though. Aside from further dividing us that is. On one side we have people unwilling to change at all and will defend their ideas on how they dress 'till the grave, and on the other side we have a bunch of people unwilling to accept that style.

Essentially, like every debate, no side is going to convince the other they're right, and we can keep going around in circles like this or all just agree to disagree, because none of us are going to agree otherwise.

[Puritan]

I think that, with all the anger and moderately harsh words being thrown around, some people have begun to loose sight of the most important thing here. We can argue the history of goth culture, the importance of a somber life that reflects on the evils in the world and in ourselves, or the witness of the prophets, but as our purpose is to bear the name of Christ we need to ensure that this is our prime focus. I think Paul makes an excellent point in this regard:

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

Now, here Paul was discussing a problem going around in the Church at this time. In Corinth and elsewhere meat was bought from pagan temples which sacrificed animals to idols and then sold their meat. Some Christians felt that eating this meat was associating with the false gods the meat was sacrificed to and their faith was shaken when they saw Christians eating this meat. Others, like Paul, said that the meat was not tainted for the gods it was sacrificed to weren't real, so eating this meat was not wrong. However, even though Paul insisted that this meat wasn't tainted, he also said that if eating it caused weak Christians to stumble then he wouldn't eat the meat.

Thus we come to the passage I quoted. We as Christians are free from the bounds of this type of thing. If it wasn't wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols, then I would find it hard to believe that it would be wrong to wear gothic clothing. Gothic clothes are associated with many movements and ideas while this meat was associated with pagan gods, yet eating this meat was acceptable, so I think that wearing gothic clothes must be acceptable if it stays within moral boundaries for clothing. However, we must each examine our own witness and ensure that what we do does not cause those around us to stumble.

I want to focus on three things here. Firstly, we must each look at our lives and our witness to determine if our lives are acceptable. While others can give advice it can be difficult for them to see the full extent of another's life, thus we cannot see the full effect of someone's clothes on their witness. Only the person wearing the clothes can make that determination. Secondly, those of us who are strong in our faith shouldn't take offense at Christians who act in ways that are moral but not identical to the way we would act. It is a poor witness for us to claim that wearing clothing associated with a specific group is bad when wearing that clothing can be used for the cause of Christ by someone trying to be "all things to all people." Thirdly, those who act in ways that can cause contriversy must weight the importance of what they do. While strong Christians should look at these things as Paul discusses, weaker Christians may very well have problems with unusual ways of acting or dressing, and all Christians have weaknesses of some sort or another. All of us should try to ensure that they way we act is not only a good witness, but that it doesn't cause others to stumble either. We must all try to bear these ideas in mind, reaching out as a witness to others while trying to mitigate controversy in the Church. As Christians we must be understanding and loving in these matters so that we can do the will of God and bring the gospel to those who so desparately need it.

[ShiroiHikari]

Puritan and bsj, kudos to you for your posts.

[GhostontheNet]

I think that, with all the anger and moderately harsh words being thrown around, some people have begun to loose sight of the most important thing here. We can argue the history of goth culture, the importance of a somber life that reflects on the evils in the world and in ourselves, or the witness of the prophets, but as our purpose is to bear the name of Christ we need to ensure that this is our prime focus.

Ah, but remember the beginning of this topic discussed the wearing of black with the particular emphasis on the mournful Gothic styles (for they are legion indeed, being dictated by the individual's own tastes) for the glory of Christ. I also mentioned that the early Eastern Orthodox iconography paints Yeshua Christ Himself in a black cloak matching to His role as The Man of Sorrows who absorbed our sorrows and transgressions to Himself. Here's my proposal: if the calling of the Christian is to represent Christ to the world, than one fair way of doing this is to absorb the sorrows and transgressions to ourselves too in dress and deed in the name of Yeshua as far as is possible without blasphemy, than we would honor His name in another way.

I think Paul makes an excellent point in this regard:

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

It would be unwise to hold, however, that Paul here simply advises lying to be someone who he one is not, in modern terms, what he advises is the very consistent search for common ground in interaction with each other so as to not be like an exchange between enemies, rather unlike much of this thread really.

Now, here Paul was discussing a problem going around in the Church at this time. In Corinth and elsewhere meat was bought from pagan temples which sacrificed animals to idols and then sold their meat. Some Christians felt that eating this meat was associating with the false gods the meat was sacrificed to and their faith was shaken when they saw Christians eating this meat. Others, like Paul, said that the meat was not tainted for the gods it was sacrificed to weren't real, so eating this meat was not wrong. However, even though Paul insisted that this meat wasn't tainted, he also said that if eating it caused weak Christians to stumble then he wouldn't eat the meat.

Thus we come to the passage I quoted. We as Christians are free from the bounds of this type of thing. If it wasn't wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols, then I would find it hard to believe that it would be wrong to wear gothic clothing. Gothic clothes are associated with many movements and ideas while this meat was associated with pagan gods, yet eating this meat was acceptable, so I think that wearing gothic clothes must be acceptable if it stays within moral boundaries for clothing. However, we must each examine our own witness and ensure that what we do does not cause those around us to stumble.

I should note too that I know a fair chunk of commentators would hold that the interpretation of the whole "to stumble" bit would be to play a hand in them actually practice idolatry again. May I ask if you have anything particularly in mind that my Christian brothers and sisters might stumble in some way for gothic dress?

I want to focus on three things here. Firstly, we must each look at our lives and our witness to determine if our lives are acceptable. While others can give advice it can be difficult for them to see the full extent of another's life, thus we cannot see the full effect of someone's clothes on their witness. Only the person wearing the clothes can make that determination. Secondly, those of us who are strong in our faith shouldn't take offense at Christians who act in ways that are moral but not identical to the way we would act. It is a poor witness for us to claim that wearing clothing associated with a specific group is bad when wearing that clothing can be used for the cause of Christ by someone trying to be "all things to all people." Thirdly, those who act in ways that can cause contriversy must weight the importance of what they do. While strong Christians should look at these things as Paul discusses, weaker Christians may very well have problems with unusual ways of acting or dressing, and all Christians have weaknesses of some sort or another. All of us should try to ensure that they way we act is not only a good witness, but that it doesn't cause others to stumble either. We must all try to bear these ideas in mind, reaching out as a witness to others while trying to mitigate controversy in the Church. As Christians we must be understanding and loving in these matters so that we can do the will of God and bring the gospel to those who so desparately need it.

Well said. May I ask if you have any advice for what to do when others bring controversy to you, or how to make changes within a church on things that are in error without the all-too-typical infightings and schisms for every dispute leading to all this denomonational factionalism that plagues the Church at present?