book on anime and manga removed at a library.

Talk about anything in here.

Postby Arnobius » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:22 pm

Puritan wrote:Many libraries don't carry this book and those that do have trouble with people destroying or loosing the thing, so I am unsurprised, although I am a bit troubled that it is so difficult to read a book that had a large place in the Oklahoma City bombing. I would also agree with you, AnimeHeretic, that a temporary ban would be appropriate while the library corrects its lapses, but I would find it unfortunate if the temporary ban becomes permenant because the library is unwilling to deal with this type of material appropriately.

Well, if it's a problem with the staff, then certainly some disciplinary action should be taken, though I suspect it was more carelessness than willfull negligence. I think the proper safeguards should be in place first though before returning it.

Technomancer wrote:Given the subject matter of the book, I didn't find the picture to be out of place. It's part of a perfectly valid, survey of manga and manga culture, in other words it's essentially a history of a popular art form. Documenting these comics without illustrations would leave the book entirely incomplete]

Actually according to the description of the incident:
Although the book in question was not located in the children’s section of the Victorville library, it was on a shelf next to other books including comics popular with children.


so clearly there were no safeguards in place at that library. I don't deny that there can be legitimate works that deal with graphic content, but when they exist, access needs to be controlled to prevent minors from accessing them.

Finally there are community standards. I can't speak for what CBC and TVO allows, since those are from a different country (Canada) than the county of San Bernadino. But I think that is the issue. Standards in one part of Canada and standards of San Bernadino can be different in what is acceptable. In the United States, community standards are the key to what is acceptable and what is not. The content of a Public library reflects those standards.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:26 pm

Procedure needs to be followed when a book is challenged.I believe part of it would have been for a member of the library staff to go through and check the challenged book to make sure there was just cause to have it taken out of circulation.Again as I understand this was not done.Unfortunately they did not apparently allowed the library function the way it was set up to do.

As far as nudity goes,at least three of the manga I own have some partial female nudity in them.I.e. Inuyasha vol.#1 and #15 as well as Fushigi Yugi #17.
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Postby Steeltemplar » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:38 pm

mitsuki lover wrote:Procedure needs to be followed when a book is challenged.I believe part of it would have been for a member of the library staff to go through and check the challenged book to make sure there was just cause to have it taken out of circulation.Again as I understand this was not done.Unfortunately they did not apparently allowed the library function the way it was set up to do.

As far as nudity goes,at least three of the manga I own have some partial female nudity in them.I.e. Inuyasha vol.#1 and #15 as well as Fushigi Yugi #17.

Well, I could see a debate going on about this but I think we should avoid it. On whose authority the decision was made is really secondary to the issue. Whoever made the decision obviously had the authority to carry it out or else it would not have happened.

The real question being discussed here is whether the material in the book was indeed appropriate to be in a public library, paid for by public tax money, and openly available to all including minors.

Earlier discussion suggested that the best solution would be to have the text in a restricted area of the library where minors could not access it at all. By this, I do not mean a mere vague belief that it is unlikely that minors would go into the general area of the library, but in fact a particular area for those books which contain such images would be kept away from minors in a truly effective manner. It seems that this solution should be acceptable to all involved as it retains the book in the library without exposing minors to it unnecessarily.

I should also like to say that I agree with AnimeHeretic. The library needs to follow the standards of its community. Especially since it is the community which pays for its existence. And while, Technomancer, you may say that there would have been no public outcry against this book, I can equally say that there is apparently no community action against its banning either. I do wonder if it were actually put to referendum which way the community would lean. Of course, they might want the book reinstated, but there is also a very real possibility that the community at large would not want such an image in general circulation where their children might access it.
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Postby Arnobius » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:38 pm

mitsuki lover wrote:Procedure needs to be followed when a book is challenged.I believe part of it would have been for a member of the library staff to go through and check the challenged book to make sure there was just cause to have it taken out of circulation.Again as I understand this was not done.Unfortunately they did not apparently allowed the library function the way it was set up to do.

As far as nudity goes,at least three of the manga I own have some partial female nudity in them.I.e. Inuyasha vol.#1 and #15 as well as Fushigi Yugi #17.

On the other hand, there is no evidence that Chairman Postmus overstepped his bounds either. I did some looking around (same state as where I am) and it seems that this library also has a history of allowing minors under 17 to check out R-rated movies and explicit books, so it seems the problem is the library.

He is supported by other members of the council on this matter and other local government officials in the county have expressed repeated concerns, and they want to find out just how much minors have to X rated material so they can put a stop to it. Note this does NOT mean ban the material, but rather make sure minors can't access it.

<edit> Here's one of the local newspapers takes on it (which seems to be the base article the bigger news orginizations ran with). Most of the locals support this from the various articles I found
http://www.desertdispatch.com/2006/114493372479133.html

The head Librarian's account of this acquisiton:

Library Journal wrote:County Librarian Ed Kieczykowski told LJ that the book was purchased because of a positive review in LJ and that more than 20 other library systems in the state bought it. He said he explained the library's selection and reconsideration policy to the supervisor and they looked at the book together. Kieczykowski estimated that less than two percent of the book was sexually explicit, but Postmus "particularly didn't like the page the cartoon character was having sex with the hamster. He said, 'Do you think this is acceptable for our community?' I said that we take the book as a whole, but I could understand why people would be upset."


<edit 2> Postmus is basically calling for a system that restricts what books are available to minors according to the news sources NOT linked to anime-- which is what everyone here advocated... so I think this is largely "much to do about nothing."
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Postby mitsuki lover » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:09 pm

The head librarian was correct in his statement that you have to take the book as a whole.
My other point was that even mainstream manga-ka from time to time will use nudity to further a plotline,which does not mean it is in any way pornographic.
Also let us remember once again that the book in question was a history of manga that included material on hentai,from what I understand.
Personally I think the whole thing may be in fact overblown as every post that I have read from someone who has actually READ the book seems to imply that the controversial material in it is a miniscule part of the whole.
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Postby Arnobius » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:27 pm

mitsuki lover wrote:The head librarian was correct in his statement that you have to take the book as a whole.
My other point was that even mainstream manga-ka from time to time will use nudity to further a plotline,which does not mean it is in any way pornographic.
Also let us remember once again that the book in question was a history of manga that included material on hentai,from what I understand.
Personally I think the whole thing may be in fact overblown as every post that I have read from someone who has actually READ the book seems to imply that the controversial material in it is a miniscule part of the whole.

It's a fallacy to argue by numbers (whether or not the material is small does not address the issue of whether or not it is acceptable for minors). Also the Straw Man argument is present again.

Nobody is disputing the fact that the amount of material is small. Yes we are quite aware the book is attempting to be a serious study of manga. But these are EVASIONS of the Real issue: The Library allowed books with explicit content (acording to the standards of the community) to be checked out by minors with no safeguards.

This was a problem at the library BEFORE this book came out-- complaints of the library allowing minors to check out R rated movies (something most libraries do not allow) and explicit books. This was in the eyes of the community one more example of the library's poor judgement.

What the county government is demanding (and it is a legitimate "through the proper channels" action, not the action of one man) is that the library system install the proper safeguards that minors do not gain access to material deemed explicit by the community. If this library had done this, there would have been no need for the ban and this story would never have happened.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:30 pm

This is getting to be rather a Libertarian versus Authoritarian debate.I think it might be past time for the mods to consider locking it before it turns over political.
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Postby DrNic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:32 pm

Yup, I thought this looked like it was going a bit far. It's just news, arguings not going to change what happened.
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Postby Arnobius » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:19 pm

mitsuki lover wrote:This is getting to be rather a Libertarian versus Authoritarian debate.I think it might be past time for the mods to consider locking it before it turns over political.

Or, you could have not posted and it would have faded away. It had been dead since the 19th.
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Postby DrNic » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:40 pm

Fair point. 'runs away screaming'
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Postby Stephen » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:29 pm

What a good place to lock this before it becomes an uglier monster.
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