book on anime and manga removed at a library.

[Syreth]

Moreover, given that anime and manga are both entirely visual mediums, it is pretty much impossible for any such history not to print the pictures.

I would replace "impossible" with "unlikely." Also, even though it might not make sense to some people not to print pornographic pictures to explain pornographic manga, it still doesn't change the nature of the images or how appropriate those images are in any context. Like I said before, you don't need images to explain pornography, even if it is manga.

[Slater]

right. In the context of pornography, nudity will always be pornographic.

NUDITY IS PORN

Absolutely not true. Nudity does not imply pornographicness. God DID create the human body to be pleasing to the eye and to be freely looked upon. It's our sin that corrupts the use of nudity in art if we let it. Artistic nude is a genre with simply breathtaking scenes when propperly done, but today it is rarely practiced in its original "pure" form because 1. people prefer watching porn over looking at art, and 2. the increase in pornography in recent times has made more and more people believe that any form of artistic nude is pornographic.

It really irks me quite a bit when people claim that the human body is something that's not good to look at... Such comments (and I'm not saying the above comment is one of these) imply that God created something sinful or "dirty" and thus that His image of "very good" is skewed and untrue. It is my firm belief that if there is anything sinful or pornographic about nudity, it exists only in a person's mind and/or actions, not in the image itself. Lust is a sin, and as such it starts as an overcomable temptation, and there lies the only sinful part of nudity that we see.

[ChristianKitsune]

Ok..it seems you guys misunderstood what I was trying to say...

When I meant we aren't as strong as we used to be I didn't mean the saving Grace that God gave us. No, God never changes, and his Gift never changes either.

what I AM saying is..I don't see a lot of Christians Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk. They speak "I LOVE JESUS!" yet turn around and do worldy things. Is that Acting like Christ? No.

And Kae, you keep throwing that verse at me. Over and over again. But As a fellow christian, I am not Judging anyone. I know I am not blameless and I am not saying YOU I am saying WE!. Also, did Paul just let his peers keep doing what they were doing? Nope, he talked to them, wrote to them. You statement seems to imply that there really is no point in telling someone they need to change when they are on the backroads to backsliding. It's called brother/sisterly love. And I am not judging anyone.

I am DEEPLY concerned, that is all. It breaks my heart. My heart is weeping for our country. My heart weeps to see a fellow christian Fall. To see them turn toward sin instead of Christ.

Today I was hanging with my friends, and a friend that was such an awesome example for Christ announced that upon entering College he wanted to try to get drunk.

That hurts....the way our world, is heading is insane! I don't know if anyone of you have seen it...or noticed...but doesn't it frighten you? Doesn't it make the hair on the back of your neck stand on end when you see how we are living? What we are allowing into our lives?

I go back to my previous post..."What would happen if we left our anime, our mangas and our computers and talked to some people for one day about Christ" there are about 3000 people on CAA. If we all reached one person for Christ and they accepted...that would be 3000 souls that would enter into heaven. 3000 brothers and sisters! Wouldn't that be awesome!? Now, let's multiply that by 10! WAH! Even cooloer!

I am not trying to judge...but I see a problem...a BIG one...and when the souls of billions of people are on the line, and I see christians doing nothing! (some not all) It bothers me...when we aren't setting an example.

WE can talk and talk about Jesus...but what are our lives showing? Are we reflecting what Jesus would want us to reflect?

Think about it guys... I don't think what I am saying is so silly...

And Mith, sir. to your Theocracy comment. I know we were given a free choice. and I am not saying that we need to censor everything.

But wouldn't it be awesome...if the US turned from their worldly ways, and turned towards God? Wouldn't that be awesome?

I may look through rose colored glasses...my ideals may not sound realistic...but through God...the most awesome being in the entire universe. Can use us...

Let's not just sit here anymore and watch the world go by, let's not wait for the lost to come to us...lets go to them! AND TRULY LIVE and SRREAD THE WORD OF GOD!

I ranted again, I apologize...but when my heart breaks, I speak...maybe a bit too much...^^;

I am sorry if anyone is offended by my words...I really mean no offence, and I kow that our sins are no different than they were thosands of years ago..

Thanks for hearing me out!

[EireWolf]

Though I respect your convictions, I strongly disagree with you, and will support my position with Biblical evidence. To say God did not make the human body to be freely looked at, is calling Genesis false. For God created Adam and Eve naked, and they were not ashamed. They were naked until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and only then did they become ashamed and try to hide their nudity.

In its purest state, nudity is not pornography, it is the way we were created, and God said it was very good. Since God hates perversion, and is incapable of lying, it is the only logical assumption that nudity is good, it is the world that has twisted and perverted it into something that is sinful.

Well said, Kae. In fact, I would say that much sin stems from something good that has been twisted. (Was it C.S. Lewis that wrote about that?)

However, t4t and everyone, please let's not have another debate about "nudity=porn." It is a tangential issue here anyway, and therefore a bit off topic.

[DrNic]

Wow, this debate has expanded drastically in the last day or so. I forsee a locking off the port bow, yarr!

[rocklobster]

yeah, go ahead and do that, mods. Hope locked threads don't count as strikes.

[Steeltemplar]

yeah, go ahead and do that, mods. Hope locked threads don't count as strikes.

They don't. For one thing, how would the original poster have control over what is posted later on? Anyway, if they do lock it rather than just let it die out naturally, then you have no reason to worry.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

My concern with the book being in the public library is that people it is so easily accessable. Simply being in a restricted area does not guarantee it's inacsessability to minors. It may provide helpful in keeping young viewers away. But will it totally? Not 100% that is for sure. The eyes of a youg one are full of curiousity. And having such a book in the public is a risk where a child can open his eyes, and then have his brain flooded with all the wrongs of the world.

Some may argue "there is worse stuff on the internet" And to that I say the existence of the internet is a big risk too. Let me inform you that a lot of young people get trapped into the world of porn when an older figure shows it to them. Speaking from my personal life, my first experience with such things was when my older cousin showed it to me. And I totally looked up to him. I must of been about 6 or so. He may have been 16 or 17. Every since then as a child, I always wanted more. Would I have fallen prey to porn eventually? Of course, like every other guy in the United States. But even so, that does not justify the fact that some older guy still showed me a nudie mag.

Some other people may say "well that person should retain some self control". Do you think a child knows right from wrong? Most certaintly not, especially on the levels of pornography. Pertaining to an adult or someone older, that is like putting a alcohol addict in a room full of open beers cans.
Does the same analogy work? Well it's not foolproof that's for sure. It's more like putting an alcohol addict in a room with beer hidden in the cabinets.

Curiousity is what starts the downfall.

[Stephen]

But as I said earlier, if a person wants to see somthing...nothing will stop them. The whole world can't change to help one person fight temptation. It would be like if I was a glutton, and I had you outlaw food for me. If its in a restricted area, and a kid looks anyway, then they have there own heart to deal with. Because at that point, it was not youthful ignorance, it was basicly being led by our sin nature.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

But as I said earlier, if a person wants to see somthing...nothing will stop them. The whole world can't change to help one person fight temptation. It would be like if I was a glutton, and I had you outlaw food for me. If its in a restricted area, and a kid looks anyway, then they have there own heart to deal with. Because at that point, it was not youthful ignorance, it was basicly being led by our sin nature.

Quite true ark, however we shouldn't really feed to peoples temptation. Even removing one article, yes there will be more. However isn't it better to have one less? That is the way I see it. But in reality, there will always be porn. Without a doubt.

[Stephen]

I don't think its right to censor somthing because one person has no willpower. *shrug* Thats my opinion.

[jon0]

how many of you have read RahXaphon, FLCL, or NGE. the sexual overtones in those animes is no different than looking at that book. So those of you arguing against the book, but have watched those animes are being inconsistant. You can't except it in one instance and not in the other. I don't care if they remove the book, but the library needs to be consistant about it and remove several other books from that library.

I didn't mean just those animes, but any anime with a relating subject matter.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I don't think its right to censor somthing because one person has no willpower. *shrug* Thats my opinion.

But like I said, an accidental peek can bring forth total destruction. Especially with an innocent child.

how many of you have read RahXaphon, FLCL, or NGE. the sexual overtones in those animes is no different than looking at that book. So those of you arguing against the book, but have watched those animes are being inconsistant.

Aren't all christians inconsistent? Name one geniune christian who is against pornography and also does not have impure temptations. Just because someone has seen something with sexual overtones or has seen pornography, does that mean they are in support of such things? Not really. I am wholeheartly against any form of porngraphy. Have I fallen and seen such things? Yes I have.

[Steeltemplar]

how many of you have read RahXaphon, FLCL, or NGE. the sexual overtones in those animes is no different than looking at that book. So those of you arguing against the book, but have watched those animes are being inconsistant. You can't except it in one instance and not in the other. I don't care if they remove the book, but the library needs to be consistant about it and remove several other books from that library.

I didn't mean just those animes, but any anime with a relating subject matter.

Yes, consistancy is important.

At the same time, I think that there is a distinct difference between a "sexual overtone" and an explicit image of a sexual act. They simply are not the same thing. If we were to place them together under the same category, then we would say there was no difference between, say, an episode of Seinfeld and a hardcore pornography video.

[mitsuki lover]

The problem was the person doing the censoring had no real authority to be doing it as he was from outside of the library and it should have been the library system that should have done the censoring not someone from the outside.
There are certain procedures that all libraries have to follow when something like this occurs,and it seems that for some reason,from what little we know,instead of going through the proper procedure the mother went to someone outside of the library and complained.She should have asked what the proper procedure for challenging a book was from one of the librarians on hand.
This whole mess has too much of a political smell to it IMO.

[Nate]

what I AM saying is..I don't see a lot of Christians Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk. They speak "I LOVE JESUS!" yet turn around and do worldy things. Is that Acting like Christ? No.

Again, I fail to see how this is any different than it has been in history. As Puritan said, the exact same things happened in the early Church, hence why he told you to read the letters of Paul in the New Testament. This is not, I repeat, NOT a new problem, Kitchan. This was one of the things Paul spoke against in his letters. Remember Romans 6? Paul was speaking to us in the modern time, yes, but he was ALSO speaking to the people alive in that time period. Therefore, we can determine this isn't somehow a problem that's recently surfaced, but that there have always been people who claimed Christ yet lived in a life of sin. So to say "They were stronger back then" is a fallacious statement with no factual backing.

And Kae, you keep throwing that verse at me. Over and over again. But As a fellow christian, I am not Judging anyone. I know I am not blameless and I am not saying YOU I am saying WE!. Also, did Paul just let his peers keep doing what they were doing? Nope, he talked to them, wrote to them. You statement seems to imply that there really is no point in telling someone they need to change when they are on the backroads to backsliding. It's called brother/sisterly love. And I am not judging anyone.

I disagree, and think you are judging others' standards. This is what I mean. Let's take a movie that I love, like Fight Club. For you to say "No Christian should watch this movie" is judging my standards.

As I said, if something is explicit porn, then yes, that's definitely not something a Christian should watch. But otherwise, it is up to the person to pray and get themselves right with God, as to whether or not they should watch something. I can watch the movie and feel I can still be right with Him. Maybe you can't, and that's fine. But to claim no Christian should watch it, just because you personally don't like it, is passing judgement. THAT is what I mean by you judging someone else's standards.

Now, does that mean you should ignore everything a person does? No. If you really feel that a person is watching something they shouldn't, it is your duty as a Christian to tell that person, "Hey, this movie has some stuff in it, you really might want to pray about it and talk it over with God whether you want to watch it or not." As I said before, I like Fight Club, but if someone said "Hey, is this movie okay to watch?" I would tell them the content involved and say, "It's up to you if you can handle it or not. If you don't think you can, don't watch it."

I personally had issues with Star Ocean 3, and as a Christian I could not in good consciousness continue to play it. Some people on this site play it and have no problem with it. But just because I personally found it offensive to me, does NOT give me the right to say "No Christian should play this game."

I hope that helps explain my position better. I'm not saying that warning someone of content in something is judging them, I'm saying for you personally to claim something is wrong for all Christians is beyond your jurisdiction. That is between that person and the Lord. He is their master, not you.

But wouldn't it be awesome...if the US turned from their worldly ways, and turned towards God? Wouldn't that be awesome?

Yes, it would be, but we still could not make laws supporting this. The founders of this country wrote the laws for specific reasons, one of which being that the government is NOT allowed to establish a national religion, nor advocate any particular religion over another. It would be nice, don't get me wrong, but it would go completely against the ideals this country was founded on.

Anyway, hope that clears things up for ya. ^^

[ChristianKitsune]

I wasn't even thinking of that movie..pm and you will know what movie I was talking about.

and I would never outrightly say, "THAT MOVIE IS WRONG YOU ARE SINNING!"

I would do exactly what you said.. and do it in a loving way


in any case..I am done here..I am tired of this..

but remember Non Christians watch EVERYTHING we do. do as your heart tells you, but I pray that you don't cause anyone to stumble. and the same goes for me.

[Steeltemplar]

The problem was the person doing the censoring had no real authority to be doing it as he was from outside of the library and it should have been the library system that should have done the censoring not someone from the outside.
There are certain procedures that all libraries have to follow when something like this occurs,and it seems that for some reason,from what little we know,instead of going through the proper procedure the mother went to someone outside of the library and complained.She should have asked what the proper procedure for challenging a book was from one of the librarians on hand.
This whole mess has too much of a political smell to it IMO.

The order was made by the County Board of Supervisors. I will admit that I do not know the exact workings of the local government there. However, I should think that the County Library system is likely directly subservient to the County Board of Supervisors. In which case, I would consider it likely that the decision here was indeed made by someone with the legal authority to make it.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I disagree, and think you are judging others' standards. This is what I mean. Let's take a movie that I love, like Fight Club. For you to say "No Christian should watch this movie" is judging my standards.

I think it is important to judge someone's standards. If a Christian sees another christian doing something they should not be seeing, it is their reponsibility to bring that up!

Now with movies like fight club, thats a bit different. Because a movie will affect some people and wont to others. But other things? Sexual things, lustful things, crime, disobeying authority. Those are different, and need to be talked about.

[Nate]

I think it is important to judge someone's standards.

I'm sorry, but the Bible says not to, and the Bible is God's word. And I'm not saying not to say something to that person. He who knows the good he ought to do and does not do it, sins. If you think a person is watching something they shouldn't, it's your duty to bring it up to that person. But to say "I don't think he's a very good Christian because he watches that," or the like, is judging their standards, and that is wrong.

[Slater]

Yeah, the Bible says that you shall be measured unto the mete with which you judge others, so we must watch how we view other people

[Mr. SmartyPants]

But to say "I don't think he's a very good Christian because he watches that," or the like, is judging their standards, and that is wrong.

But I never said nor do I agree to that. I said we are to tell people when they are falling and messing up with certain areas of their lives. Okay so it's not called "judging standards". But ChristianRonin wasn't really judging anyones standards. Morals are absolute. And something is either right or wrong. And she is simply stating what is (and what I believe) is right. Doing X is wrong, so christians must stop doing so. That was her basic message. She DIDN'T say "Doing X harms me spiritually, so it is evil and we musn't do it"

[Arnobius]

It looks to me that this topic has veered from discussing the topic of the library to bashing one of the posters on this thread about her moral convictions, and it really ought to be locked right about here. There is nothing to be gained from rehashing her words and trying to bring them about into the most unfavorable light.

ChristianRonin says she was not intending to judge people. I think the Christian thing to do is to accept that, even if you disagree with her opinions on the original subject, and let the matter drop.

[Tenshi no Ai]

It looks to me that this topic has veered from discussing the topic of the library to bashing one of the posters on this thread about her moral convictions, and it really ought to be locked right about here.

I've been watching this topic for days now and I'm actually VERY surprised it hasn't been closed pages ago! I put in my one comment before it turned into what it is^^

[Stephen]

It looks to me that this topic has veered from discussing the topic of the library to bashing one of the posters on this thread about her moral convictions, and it really ought to be locked right about here.

How bout we let the staff do there job? Let's get back on topic folks.

[Mave]

You know, I've complained about a manga in a library before because it had nudity and violent rape scenes. They yanked it and I'm not sorry that I might have stepped over someone else's right to read it. I would like to think that it's not about my personal opinion of what's right or what's wrong but rather, it was a genuine concern that my fellow students (we were about 12- 14 years old) would be upset upon reading that.

......

OK fine....I confess an additional selfish intention. I also didn't want ppl to think that all anime/manga were like that and to think that I'm one sick gal to be reading Japanese comics. So, I just might.....have done the same thing that kid did. I accept the fact that someone will pick on me for stepping over their freedom of choice but it's a consequence I'll suck up and bear with. So, I am officially cool if anyone pelts me with rotten tomatoes for having that opinion.

Anyway, I really just wanted to share that I've used the "Do not judge me" card on my fellow Christians for my selfish intentions before. Not that I'm saying anyone here is doing this (guess you'll have to figure that one out yourself) but who can say that their heart has never been deceived before behind the cloak of "That's my personal conviction, yo. Back off, brotha'." Food for thought, me thinks.

I do not trust myself that well and NEED other Christians with their convictions to guide my decisions. That's why I appreciate members who have different preferences, tolerances and point of views as demonstrated in this thread although it's always interesting how we typically feel offended when someone challenges our personal convictions because....well, "our personal convictions are always right and no one has the right to challenge that." Is that true? Oh I don't know...Hmmm

All in all, I'm just saying that there's worth hearing out the opinions of -those Christians- whom we feel are *ahem* too strict, judgmental and hypocritical. (>.<);; I'm sorry for labelling Christians and need to made a conscious effort to stop doing that! But yeah, it's a very humbling effort to consider other ppl's personal convictions and rebukes, and not being upset at the same time.

Woa, TOTALLY off topic. And RIGHT after, Ark's post too (sorry, brother!) XD;; I just couldn't resist sharing this thought that suddenly popped out of my little head. *runs off back to work*

[Puritan]

I think this is somewhat different than what you are talking about, Mave, but you make a good point. I can understand the desire to censor truly pornographic materials from a library, and I would disagree with anyone who wanted to have a library stock issues of pornographic magazines, movies, or manga. However, it can be difficult to draw the line between materials that are intended to be pornographic and materials that have crummy scenes or some crummy pictures but which have a different intention than pornography. It's the difference between some older issues of National Geographic showing natives of different countries who are nude because that is how they live and issues of Playboy, or between a pornographic video and an instructional video on giving ones-self a brest cancer self-exam.

While this book toes the line between scholarship and pornography, what I have read sets this pretty squarely in the realm of scholarship. The reason I feel that this book could reasonably be stocked in a library (albeit restricted from access to children) is because it sounds like this is supposed to be an honest overview of all manga, good and bad, which makes it understandable that hentai would be covered. Even though I disagree with the inclusion of the pornographic pictures, it seems to me that banning this book would be throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, as others have said that the rest of the book is very good. For some, this book could be an excellent resource, while others could be tempted to sin. Thus, I think it would be reasonable to restrict access to the book and include a warning on the book so that potential readers know that there are some pornographic images included and can avoid the book if necessary.

Much of this debate comes down to issues of morals and the idea that we need to restrict people from material which can cause them to sin. I will agree wholeheartedly that pornography and lust is wrong, and that looking at these images lustfully is wrong. I also agree that children should be prevented from getting their hands on this type of thing to avoid exposing them to this evil, and that readers should be warned that this material is existant in this book so that those who are succeptable to this type of thing can avoid it. However, beyond that I think we should be careful what we do. We cannot stop people from lusting or sinning no matter what we ban, and overzealousness in protecting people can seriously inhibit study, which can also be harmful.

I'll use a non-pornographic example to try to make my case. A number of years ago I read the book "The Turner Diaries," which is a blatantly racist and vile work which details the work of a white supremacist to overthrow the "race traitor" government of the US and establish a "glorious" state of only white people. The book describes acts of racist terror and anarchy and was one of the books that inspired Timothy McVeigh to bomb the Oklahoma City federal building. I am glad I read the book. While it was vile, it gave me insights into the thought processes of some white extremists so I can understand how they think and how I should deal with them, and it brought home to me the importance of preventing these people from gaining power or weapons because they would do terrible things with them. My college (UW-Madison, which is a very large school) has one copy of this book in a locked case. I can understand their desire to be careful with this book, but I think that copies should be slightly more acessible, if carefully monitored. While people need to be cautious when they read this book as the author's hatred of people who aren't white can easily affect you if you are not careful, I think adults who are prepared should try to at least look over this book to understand how important it is to deal with these extremists. Knowledge is power, and understanding of these people is important if we are to deal with their vitriol. By the same token, I think that an understanding of the history of manga is important in dealing with manga, and while I think that hentai images shouldn't have been published in this work, censoring the entire book would prevent interested people from finding out about the history of manga and the place of hentai in that history. This knowledge can be used for good, as understanding the place of hentai in the history of manga can help people deal with hentai and hopefully mitigate its place in the manga of the future, so we should be careful when we debate banning this entire work.

[Arnobius]

It's a good point you raise Puritan, and had this library done that in the first place, there would have been no need for the drastic measures that were taken.

However, the problem is they did not have these measures in place, and the result was that minors were exposed to a book they ought not to have. Whether or not this ban is permanent remains to be seen, but I think it is not unreasonable to ban it until new safeguards are in place to ensure the lapse of judgement done by this library staff does not repeat itself.

Remember this was a specific action taken locally against a specific book, with concern that the library might be lax with other manga. The action seeks to ensure that the mistake does not happen again, and makes the libraries of San Bernadino establish a plan to make sure minors are not exposed to this material again.

[Technomancer]

Now having the book in my possesion (I picked it up from my library during my lunch break), I've been able to see what the fuss was about. The illustration itself is contained in a chapter which discusses a variety of independent manga artists, whose subject matter is often more adult-oriented (in a variety of ways) than more mainstream publications. Given that many of these artists have also managed to break away from the more confining "manga" style, the illustrational style for the disputed "Bondage Fairies" picture is disappointingly conventional. The scene depicted isn't exactly explicit either.

Given the subject matter of the book, I didn't find the picture to be out of place. It's part of a perfectly valid, survey of manga and manga culture, in other words it's essentially a history of a popular art form. Documenting these comics without illustrations would leave the book entirely incomplete; any book on art history with the illustrations left out would be similarly flawed. In terms of the library, the book was not shelved near the children's or teens' sections, but was instead appropriately placed among other books on art. Given the contents of illustrations in other books either on art or social issues (e.g. censorship, pornography) which can be found in the library, this books is not out of place either. Moreover, since material that is at least as "controversial" is also sometimes shown on government-owned television stations (CBC and TVO), there is unlikely to be any serious outcry over this, nor is there any reason that I can see not to have these books in general circulation. It may not be a children's book, but there are many other books/novels in circulation that also aren't for children. This is perfectly acceptable; a library's role is to be a repository of knowledge, and not a guardian of moral and religious sensibilities.

My college (UW-Madison, which is a very large school) has one copy of this book in a locked case. I can understand their desire to be careful with this book, but I think that copies should be slightly more acessible, if carefully monitored.

They'd do that at a university?

[Puritan]

Many libraries don't carry this book and those that do have trouble with people destroying or loosing the thing, so I am unsurprised, although I am a bit troubled that it is so difficult to read a book that had a large place in the Oklahoma City bombing. I would also agree with you, AnimeHeretic, that a temporary ban would be appropriate while the library corrects its lapses, but I would find it unfortunate if the temporary ban becomes permenant because the library is unwilling to deal with this type of material appropriately.