book on anime and manga removed at a library.

[Arnobius]

I think that we defined pornography in a past thread. Pornographic matterial doesn't necesarily involve nudity, and nudity doesn't necesarily imply pornographic, even though, unfortunately, in today's world the two are more often related than not. However, if there is nudity in the context of the term "hentai" (which is Japanese for pervert and has become a term that pretty literally means "pornographic anime"), then it is next to impossible, without a radically liberal definition of the term pornographic, to argue that such an image is NOT pornographic.

Community Standards is the standard measure

Also from this source http://news.awn.com/index.php?ltype=top&newsitem_no=16695

it says

The 2004 trade paperback, written by Paul Gravett and published by Harper Design, is a history of Japanese comics, including several chapters addressing adult comics that depict sex and violence.

So hentai material is a good bet.

[Maledicte]

I've come across a history of ACTUAL pornography in a library, and as far as I know it hasn't been banned. Most likely because it was placed in the dreary old nonfiction grown up section.

Which is where the book in question should have been kept. Someone misguidedly saw that it had AstroBoy on the cover and assumed it was for young adults. While young adults can be interested in the history of sequential art, it's still a history and better suited to the area of the library that is designated by Dewey decimal numbers, away from the kids section. It didn't have to be banned.

EDIT: Holy snap, that's the county I live in. I've seen this book at the branch in my city, in the appropriate section, and have even borrowed it once. My county tends to be one of the more conservative counties in the state. I wonder if it's been taken out of all the libraries or just Victorville's.

[Technomancer]

I don't think someone would just blow this out of proportion unless it was necassary...

People blow stuff out of proportion all the time.

I actually have gone through this book when I was considering buying it. There was apparently one picture that I did miss, which it seems was taken from a hentai comic. This one picture is indeed explicit, so my mistake. The fact that such a pciture exists does not however mean that the book is pornographic or that is peddaling smut. The purpose of the book is a discussion of the history of manga and anime, of which like it or not, hentai is a part. You can't discuss the subject without bringing up its more salacious aspects or you wouldn't produce a comprehensive history.

The fact that it is not a children's book however, should not exclude it from the library. Clearly, the purpose of the book is as history and any "objectionable" bits must be considered in that context. Just as a book on the history of censorship is likely to contain examples of offensive material (some rather explicit 18th century woodcuts spring to mind somehow), a book on manga is likely to discuss, and should discuss all aspects of the subject. In other words, the purpose of the picture is not pornograpphic even if the original source material was. The reality though is that the parent in question, and the library authorities seem to be unablke to make that distinction. Worse, given that if the library is of any quality at all it will contain material that someone doesn't want their children reading it is likely basing its decision on the notion that "comics are for kids".

I don't doubt that the book was poorly shelved, but that's a simple fix and does not require these drastic measures. Unless the library authorities propose to remove all books containing such material (written or pictorial, fiction or non-fiction), their decision smacks of allowing the problems of a handful of individuals to determine the reading choices available to the public at large. The job of a public library is provide a broad range of reading material on a diversity of subject matter, it is not there to safeguard little Johnny's morals or to ensure that he only reads what his parents want him to read.

[Arnobius]

I've come across a history of ACTUAL pornography in a library, and as far as I know it hasn't been banned. Most likely because it was placed in the dreary old nonfiction grown up section.

Which is where the book in question should have been kept. Someone misguidedly saw that it had AstroBoy on the cover and assumed it was for young adults. While young adults can be interested in the history of sequential art, it's still a history and better suited to the area of the library that is designated by Dewey decimal numbers, away from the kids section. It didn't have to be banned.

Again... Community Standards dictate this. So really, it makes no sense to appeal to what happens elsewhere

Given most readers of manga are minors, and most libraries allow minors to get books from the non-Children section (the Main Library), this would have changed nothing in this case. Remember the person in question was 16. The library of Victorsville made a grossly negligent decision, and it's understandable that people want a plan in place to make sure they do not screw up again.

The fact that it is not a children's book however, should not exclude it from the library. Clearly, the purpose of the book is as history and any "objectionable" bits must be considered in that context. Just as a book on the history of censorship is likely to contain examples of offensive material (some rather explicit 18th century woodcuts spring to mind somehow), a book on manga is likely to discuss, and should discuss all aspects of the subject. In other words, the purpose of the picture is not pornograpphic even if the original source material was. The reality though is that the parent in question, and the library authorities seem to be unablke to make that distinction. Worse, given that if the library is of any quality at all it will contain material that someone doesn't want their children reading it is likely basing its decision on the notion that "comics are for kids".

The problem is it is quite possible to discuss content without being graphic about it. One doesn't need to use hardcore pornography to teach sex-ed to the proper age group, and one doesn't need to use graphic pictures of bodies being blown apart to teach of the horrors of war. There are serious and sensational works. Even with the more serious works, the more graphic the detail, the more controlled it needs to be with preventing the risk of exposure to minors

I think part of the problem is that we tend to be desensitized when it comes to anime and manga and forget how ordinary people react to it

[Steeltemplar]

I've come across a history of ACTUAL pornography in a library, and as far as I know it hasn't been banned. Most likely because it was placed in the dreary old nonfiction grown up section.

Does it have explicit pictures? If so, it probably should be only available to adults or not be in the library at all. The existence of other objectionable material does not lessen in any way the objectionable nature of the specific book which we discuss.

As far as how this relates to policies, I guess it does vary between libraries. However, I know that many do keep a careful watch.

Which is where the book in question should have been kept. Someone misguidedly saw that it had AstroBoy on the cover and assumed it was for young adults. While young adults can be interested in the history of sequential art, it's still a history and better suited to the area of the library that is designated by Dewey decimal numbers, away from the kids section. It didn't have to be banned.

Being in the general area of the library where the dewey decimal numbers are as well as the "dreary old non-fiction" does not represent an effective or even realistic barrier against those who should not access this material doing so. All it requires is some curiosity in checking it out for whatever reason. Or maybe a kid in his early teen years who is researching something. Who knows? It simply does not form an effective deterrent. Unless the book is in an area where it can only be accessed by those 18 or older, it is not acceptably situated.

[Technomancer]

Remember the person in question was 16.

And supposedly being taught to make responsible decisions about what he wants to read as a mature adult.

[Arnobius]

And supposedly being taught to make responsible decisions about what he wants to read as a mature adult.

And he did so. He felt it was inappropriate for people his age and brought it to the attention to his mother who he saw as a responsible adult, who was rather put out that it was in the section with other manga, which was where minors could easily access it.

The fact is the blame should be on the library staff who made a negligent error, not on the people who were rightfully offended when they found that error.

[ChristianKitsune]

The way I see this is a temptation for some teens to read it and then get addicted to Hentai...

The way I see is that this may affect a 16 year old's mind. Once you dirty your mind it's hard to get it back to normal.

I use a artist's description of this.

If I want to keep my white paint white, and not make it grey at all, I need to keep black from it right?

But what if I decide that a LITTLE black won't hurt..so I mix in the white. OH NOES! THe white isn't WHITE anymore but a really really light grey! But it's not white!

But it's only slightly grey right? So..it's ok to add a tad more black..it won't hurt anything right?

AHH! Now it's even darker! I can't even tell it's white anymore... and so on...

You see what I am trying to say is if you allow a little bit of "Smut" be it ONE page or ten...it still affects the way one thinks...(I know it does me... I used to not understand innuendo jokes and I would always have a clueless look on my face. My friends would explain to me what they meant..(without me asking) and now..I can understand just about every innuendo joke)

So..by sayin "one hentai picture isn't THAT bad" is like saying "One page out of Play Boy Magazine isn't that bad either...

you can't have it both ways....

reread Phillipians 4:8

[Steeltemplar]

People blow stuff out of proportion all the time.

I actually have gone through this book when I was considering buying it. There was apparently one picture that I did miss, which it seems was taken from a hentai comic. This one picture is indeed explicit, so my mistake. The fact that such a pciture exists does not however mean that the book is pornographic or that is peddaling smut. The purpose of the book is a discussion of the history of manga and anime, of which like it or not, hentai is a part. You can't discuss the subject without bringing up its more salacious aspects or you wouldn't produce a comprehensive history.

The fact that it is not a children's book however, should not exclude it from the library. Clearly, the purpose of the book is as history and any "objectionable" bits must be considered in that context. Just as a book on the history of censorship is likely to contain examples of offensive material (some rather explicit 18th century woodcuts spring to mind somehow), a book on manga is likely to discuss, and should discuss all aspects of the subject. In other words, the purpose of the picture is not pornograpphic even if the original source material was. The reality though is that the parent in question, and the library authorities seem to be unablke to make that distinction. Worse, given that if the library is of any quality at all it will contain material that someone doesn't want their children reading it is likely basing its decision on the notion that "comics are for kids".

I don't doubt that the book was poorly shelved, but that's a simple fix and does not require these drastic measures. Unless the library authorities propose to remove all books containing such material (written or pictorial, fiction or non-fiction), their decision smacks of allowing the problems of a handful of individuals to determine the reading choices available to the public at large. The job of a public library is provide a broad range of reading material on a diversity of subject matter, it is not there to safeguard little Johnny's morals or to ensure that he only reads what his parents want him to read.

The purpose of the book does not change the nature of the picture. The nature is that it is an explicit portrayal of a sexual act. Furthermore, it was created originally to be pornography and being in the book does not alter that either. The image, therefore, should not be available for general consumption where a minor could have access to it.

Simply relabelling something or presenting it in a different circumstance does not change its essence. Imagine if this same hentai image that we are discussing were to be blown up to a large size and put up on the wall of an art gallery. Does it then become "art" and "not pornography"? Of course the pornographic nature still exists. Applying a new label to it does not change that aspect of it.

As for the informative aspects of the book, certainly I would suggest that a book might talk about the subject of hentai without showing images of it. Perhaps the writers feel that hentai is a viable art medium, but in choosing to put the image in their book they are making it unsuitable for minors. The library's first responsibility here is not to provide a book on the history of manga. It is to assure that they are not making obscene images in whatever setting available to minors.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

The book in question is fascinating, but I didn't even think of buying it because of some explict pictures. What's so hard about them just removing the offending pages from future editions? Or stocking both versions? One for people with no morals and one for people who just want a detailed history of manga?

[Slater]

I think that they can make more money by keeping a single dirtier version than have 2 versions, especially now that they're getting all this publicity.

Remember, for secular companies, the bottom line is drawn with a dollar sign.

[Arnobius]

The book in question is fascinating, but I didn't even think of buying it because of some explict pictures. What's so hard about them just removing the offending pages from future editions? Or stocking both versions? One for people with no morals and one for people who just want a detailed history of manga?

It's not a bad idea, but since this is an issue affecting libraries in one county in the US, I strongly doubt this would ever come to happen. If there was a national level backlash perhaps this would happen.

[Stephen]

Slowly as a culture, we ask more and more for big brother to censor what we see. 1984 here we come. Slap a lable on it, and be done with it. If someone wants to study the history of anime, hentai is there. Just like studying film making in America would have a chapter on video porn. While I do not support having that on the kid shelf, I don't think its right for one offended person to decide whats ok for everyone. Don't be sheep folks.

[Steeltemplar]

Slowly as a culture, we ask more and more for big brother to censor what we see. 1984 here we come. Slap a lable on it, and be done with it. If someone wants to study the history of anime, hentai is there. Just like studying film making in America would have a chapter on video porn. While I do not support having that on the kid shelf, I don't think its right for one offended person to decide whats ok for everyone. Don't be sheep folks.

Your argument falls into the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. In other words, you assume that because one event happens (some things are censored) that there is an inevitable endpoint (1984 scenario), without offering an sufficient explanation of how the steps in between these two points are dealt with (there can certainly exist a situation in which some things are censored without creating a 1984 scenario).

Also, I would not consider people "sheep" for desiring to protect minors from materials that are pornographic.

[Stephen]

So your point is what? That we should let them remove whatever they want? Hitler would agree with you.

[Syreth]

Ah, the Hitler analogy.

You don't need pictures to explain what hentai is, any more than you need pictures to explain what pornography is. I don't think we should give place to that kind of stuff, period. Besides, if they didn't think other people would be offended by it, it probably wouldn't have been removed.

[Steeltemplar]

So your point is what? That we should let them remove whatever they want? Hitler would agree with you.

Again a logical fallacy. This time a attacking a straw man - you attack an argument that I did not make by suggesting an extreme which I never even implied.

The allusion to Hitler therefore becomes moot as well, although even if Hitler DID believe this, that does not make it automatically false (such an assumption is the logical fallacy called Guilt by Association).

No, I am only saying that pornographic images and only pornographic images should be removed from being accessible by minors. If the library wishes to carry these but restrict their access, this is quite acceptable. However, I do not think it is acceptable to allow access for minors to hentai or any other explicit pornographical image.

[Stephen]

And what did I say? Did you bother reading my posts before trying to make yourself look smart? I said put a lable on it. I also said to not put it in a kids section. By putting things like this in an adult section, it would strongly limit minors viewing of it. Unless of course there trying to. In which case, we both know if a kid wants to see this stuff...its not hard to find.

[Arnobius]

Slowly as a culture, we ask more and more for big brother to censor what we see. 1984 here we come. Slap a lable on it, and be done with it. If someone wants to study the history of anime, hentai is there. Just like studying film making in America would have a chapter on video porn. While I do not support having that on the kid shelf, I don't think its right for one offended person to decide whats ok for everyone. Don't be sheep folks.

So the implication is "Don't speak out when offended" then? That is the sheep mentality.

This is being done according to the law there, and if enough people in San Bernadino care, they can also take legal means to oppose it.

Ironically, I think that if this had been a different book... that had nothing to do with anime or manga (like one on film that had explicit pictures about pornography), I think not only would CAA not be upset about the action, but (if it even made a forum) probably would have the majority of the people here outraged that the library carried the book.

The fact is a lot of people here are blinded because it is a book on manga.

[Arnobius]

And what did I say? Did you bother reading my posts before trying to make yourself look smart? I said put a lable on it. I also said to not put it in a kids section. By putting things like this in an adult section, it would strongly limit minors viewing of it. Unless of course there trying to. In which case, we both know if a kid wants to see this stuff...its not hard to find.

Did you read the previous posts... this was already discussed and accepted by some members and rejected by others

[Stephen]

Wow. A double post, and a typo. You're sure making me look dumb AH. Yes, I read the 5 pages of this thread. I was under the idea that I could express my opinion on the matter. I beg your pardon.

[Steeltemplar]

And what did I say? Did you bother reading my posts before trying to make yourself look smart? I said put a lable on it. I also said to not put it in a kids section. By putting things like this in an adult section, it would strongly limit minors viewing of it. Unless of course there trying to. In which case, we both know if a kid wants to see this stuff...its not hard to find.

I'm not trying to "make myself look smart". I am simply using logic to aid in my argument.

I did see what you said about a label and putting it in the main section of the library (which some call "adult"). The argument here has been that having it available in such a general fashion is not acceptable since it can be accessed by minors should they choose to.

Yes, indeed, they could find smut perhaps if they really wished to. However, this does not mean that we should provide them with any more ease of access than is necessary.

[Syreth]

The fact is a lot of people here are blinded because it is a book on manga.

I think that's a really good point. We shouldn't be so willing to cut slack for something just because it's something we're interested in -- of course that isn't to say that others are just blindly supporting it because manga is cool, but it's something we should be careful of.

[mitsuki lover]

First I still have to say having not seen the book in question I can't make a really valid statement about this.However after I logged off yesterday from here I went and read some of the comments at ANN's forum.A couple of the posters there had
ACTUALLY either seen or read the book in question.One of them even listed a few of the pages that had the more questionable illustrations.It seems the fuss was over just one section of a work that was trying to convey as complete as possible a history of manga.
Unfortunately the entire hentai thing cannot be overlooked if one is going to write such a book since wheter we like or not hentai IS part of the history of manga and also anime.
Furthermore from reading the discussion on the ANN forum I discovered that originally the book HAD BEEN placed in the adult section,where it properly belonged.
Now what is rather disturbing is that the person who ordered it's removal was NOT
the head librarian or even a member of the library board but rather a county supervisor(if I remember aright).
This was a case of someone overstepping their political bounds and interfering with something that by alrights belonged to the library and library board.It was not his decision wheter or not the library should pull the book.Rather such a decision should have been up to the library board and the head librarian of the said branch.
There were alternatives to simply pulling the book that should have been tried such as limiting it to the Reference Area or putting it on a list of Restricted Books.

[Arnobius]

Wow. A double post, and a typo. Your sure making me look dumb AH. Yes, I read the 5 pages of this thread. I was under the idea that I could express my opinion on the matter. I beg your pardon.

Ah, so first a cheap shot... I corrected the typo before you posted btw. Second, nobody said you couldn't post an opinion... I was just pointing out that the grounds you were attacking Steeltemplar on, implying he hadn't considered it, had already been addressed.

[Stephen]

If a child is gaining access to smut in a Library, I would call into question those working at the Library. I know around here, most adult sections are in an area that the workers can keep an eye on. Having never been to the Library in question, I would have no idea where there adult section is. But I still belive that information should not be censored. And AH, as far as the Sheep line goes. Calling for the "burning" of books falls into the sheep line.

[ChristianKitsune]

Wait..I thought we WERE sheep...Sheep Of Christ? Are we not? Why are we accepting this?

I believe there is a difference, Ark, between Censorship and protecting Children.

I recall a verse from Matthew 9:42

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

So your arguement, sir, seems to be saying that it's OK to keep this in the library where innocent kids could see it. (at least that's how it came across)

I don't believe this is right, and this book has the potential to be a stumbling block.

I don't believe in Grey areas, Ark, it's either Black or White. This book is definately in the Black area...

[Steeltemplar]

If a child is gaining access to smut in a Library, I would call into question those working at the Library. I know around here, most adult sections are in an area that the workers can keep an eye on. Having never been to the Library in question, I would have no idea where there adult section is. But I still belive that information should not be censored. And AH, as far as the Sheep line goes. Calling for the "burning" of books falls into the sheep line.

I believe that you could search this thread and find that no one has suggested burning a book. Once again, you take reasonable concerns and bring them to extremes that were never intended by those you ascribe them to.

If the book is in a restricted area where indeed children cannot go, then that is sufficient. I have said this before. This book, however, was in the general library circulation from all indications here. And if that is the case I do not think it is acceptable.

So perhaps we can agree that the optimum situation would be that the book be placed in a supervised/restricted area?

[Arnobius]

If a child is gaining access to smut in a Library, I would call into question those working at the Library. I know around here, most adult sections are in an area that the workers can keep an eye on. Having never been to the Library in question, I would have no idea where there adult section is. But I still belive that information should not be censored. And AH, as far as the Sheep line goes. Calling for the "burning" of books falls into the sheep line.

No, going along with something to avoid disturbing the status quo is sheep behavior. Certainly the son who reported the book and woman who complained are the opposite of sheep. Sheep behavior would be not wanting to create a scene and saying nothing about what one is offended by.

As for the calling of "burning" of books, I have yet to see anyone in this debate call for that. As I have said this book is freely available for sale and nobody has called for the banning of it, just not carrying it in the San Bernadino libraries, which is not what I consider censorship.

[Stephen]

Ah, but who decides the difference between protection and censorship. And last I knew, Govt. or State run places such as Librarys do not fall under the law of the Bible. Church and State girl. By your logic however, parts of the Bible could be a stumbling block to children. Rape, incest, murder, etc. Belive it or not, I understand the point of those who want to protect children. But at the same time, I just don't agree with removing things rather then putting them where they belong. Should we censor some classic art because it contains nudity?

"So perhaps we can agree that the optimum situation would be that the book be placed in a supervised/restricted area?"

I agree with that 100%.