I feel...clean.

[Arnobius]

Actually, if you're referring to the fathers of The Reformation, the reformers did keep it. However, when it was no longer mandatory it waned in popularity to the point of virtual extinction.

I seem to remember Luther favored keeping it for those who needed it, but did not personally think it was necessary. Of course it's been a few years since I last studied Luther, so I may have that wrong.

While I won't divulge the details of our conversation(becuase if I'd wanted public confession, I could have waited till a Penance service) But it was nowhere near as dramatic or formal as they make it out to be in the movies. Instead, I went to the private chapel, sat down with the priest, and confessed all of the things which had troubled me for the last several years. He listened, and gave me some solid advice about how to handle things, asked more questions, and then prayed over me (After I asked that it be a sacramental confession). As penance (A ritual which was supposed to show that the one participating was pentient, not supposed to be a punishment like I've always heard it made out to be) He requested that I read Psalm 51 and pray it like a prayer. After all of that (Which took forty minutes or so) It was time to go (I'm living on a military base right now, and they have to change out for different chapel services) and I shook his hand and rode my bike back to my place.

I'm really glad I went. I enjoyed service (even if they don't do alot of contemporary music, alot of the hymns...wow....) And took a small fellowship afterwards. All in all, a very good day(And it wasn't even ruined by the fact that I have to pedal 40 minutes each way on my bike to get there...)

So, I'm plannng on making it my church for the duration of my stay, and enjoy and learn as much as I can. I really can't wait for saturday evening mass though...I'll get to meet the actual priest (the one who I took the Rite with fills in around this area, espcially when other priests get deployed) And aquaint myself with the church as people.

I'm glad you found the experience spiritually rewarding, and I hope that you continue to do so as you look into it. We don't really have public pennance in the Catholic Church. It could be done if the penitent insisted, but he or she would be advised against it. "Pennance Services" are a formal affair where everyone gets together, but the confessions themselves are still private.

I understand some disagree with the idea of confession, so, I'd like to clarify that Catholics don't think that the Priest gets this power on his own say so, but rather believe that Christ gave this authority to his disciples (John 20: 22-23) and it passed down through their successors. So while the priests are the ones to whom the sin is confessed, acting n the person of Christ, the forgiveness comes from God.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Maybe not, but since Zarn has said "KEEP THEOLOGICAL DEBATE OUT OF THIS THREAD" I decided I'd keep the thread civil. At any rate I could really care less what you meant, since I'm well aware of your hatred and don't wish to have any part of it.

I wasn't started a debate, I honestly wanted to know, but I made the mistake of not PMing Zarn. Now I know and I am sorry. So quit being silly. I am glad Zarn feels better after confessing.

"The way I see it. If you cannot confess your sins to somebody in person. How the heck can you geniunely confess to God? Talking about these things and having accountability partners is a way to boost your faith and develop closer bonds with other believers."

Mmm, that makes a lotta sense.

[Zarn Ishtare]

That has been noted, Shao. Moving right along...

Luther did suprisingly little in changing the face of the faith, at least in differentiating between the Church and the first generation of Reformers. His primary contribution to our shared faith was his aid in defeating the practice of allowing people to buy their way out of sins (Which is impossible anyway) and trying to get a priesthood which was largly corrupt back to the task of caring for the sheep. If you read his writings, he never desired to change the reverence of Mary (Note: DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR POINT!), something which later on has been a great divider between Protestants and Catholics. He held the Saints in reverence (As a pupil to an elder student) and by all means, save for his arguements against the practices aformentioned (And some that I'm forgetting) He was a good Catholic man by all standards.

Of course, thats just my opinion.

[Slater]

uhm I have a question... if Catholics pray/confess to priests, who do priests confess to? o.O

[Locke]

That has been noted, Shao. Moving right along...

Luther did suprisingly little in changing the face of the faith, at least in differentiating between the Church and the first generation of Reformers. His primary contribution to our shared faith was his aid in defeating the practice of allowing people to buy their way out of sins (Which is impossible anyway) and trying to get a priesthood which was largly corrupt back to the task of caring for the sheep. If you read his writings, he never desired to change the reverence of Mary (Note: DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR POINT!), something which later on has been a great divider between Protestants and Catholics. He held the Saints in reverence (As a pupil to an elder student) and by all means, save for his arguements against the practices aformentioned (And some that I'm forgetting) He was a good Catholic man by all standards.

Dude you just moved right along into something that can easily be used for debating (and lockage) right after you said you didnt want a debate...

[Zarn Ishtare]

Not if everyone agrees to play nice, right? See? Everyone getting along (phew) that was close.


Anyway...like I said, please post if you have something productive to say (Without insulting people) but please, lets not make this a general discussion thread. thanks.

Zarn.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Anyway...like I said, please post if you have something productive to say (Without insulting people)

That's kind of the thing that you failed to do. Your previous post about the reformation could possibly insult some people.

May I recommend a post-edit?

[Arnobius]

uhm I have a question... if Catholics pray/confess to priests, who do priests confess to? o.O

We don't pray to priests.

And as for confession, priests go to confession, tellinig their sins to other priests. Even the pope goes to confession.

And no, a priest cannot confess to himself. He has to do it like the rest of the members of the Church

[Steeltemplar]

uhm I have a question... if Catholics pray/confess to priests, who do priests confess to? o.O

Priests confess to other Priests just as anyone else would. And we don't pray to Priests at all.

[Slater]

hmm... interesting.

And what's up with the holy water? The place down the street has this huge fountain with it and you can't enter the main part of the place without putting some on yourself...

[Zarn Ishtare]

That is something I don't understand, I'll admit. Anyone care to explain the multiple uses of holy water?

[Shao Feng-Li]

Your previous post about the reformation could possibly insult some people.

What's offensive about it?

[Locke]

What's offensive about it?

Because it can be used to start more debates =/

[Mr. SmartyPants]

What's offensive about it?

Note the words "possibly"

[Shao Feng-Li]

Oh.

[Steeltemplar]

hmm... interesting.

And what's up with the holy water? The place down the street has this huge fountain with it and you can't enter the main part of the place without putting some on yourself...

Holy water is simply water that has been blessed by a Priest. It is used for sacramental purposes such as baptism. It is also used in exorcism, though this is not a sacrament. In more daily use, however, it is meant to remind the believer of their baptism. That is the reason for the fonts at the entrances to a Catholic church and those which some believers have in their homes.

[Arnobius]

That has been noted, Shao. Moving right along...

Luther did suprisingly little in changing the face of the faith, at least in differentiating between the Church and the first generation of Reformers. His primary contribution to our shared faith was his aid in defeating the practice of allowing people to buy their way out of sins (Which is impossible anyway) and trying to get a priesthood which was largly corrupt back to the task of caring for the sheep. If you read his writings, he never desired to change the reverence of Mary (Note: DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR POINT!), something which later on has been a great divider between Protestants and Catholics. He held the Saints in reverence (As a pupil to an elder student) and by all means, save for his arguements against the practices aformentioned (And some that I'm forgetting) He was a good Catholic man by all standards.

Of course, thats just my opinion.

The Protestants disagreed on two levels. One was on theology itself, and the other was on practices

As I recall from studying Christian history and theology, there were three branches of the Protestant Reformation at the beginning in the 16th century. First; There was Luther who believed that some of the practices of the Church were "picked up over the years" and wrong and wanted to remove them, while keeping what he saw as good. Second; was the school of thought of of Huldeyric (Ulrich) Zwingli who thought that the Church was defectively structured from the beginning. Third was Henry VIII who disagreed with Luther and Zwingli both.

I'll admit I don't know well how the different denominations evolved from those three

As I recall, they met and Luther and Zwingli strongly disagreed with each other on the direction reform should go. Luther believed Holy Communion had spiritual value and supported baptism, while Zwingli thought these were only symbols and therefore useless.

While this was going on the Catholics were having their own reforms (called the Counterreformation in some books) where the issues of corruption (there were some bad priests, but it was a myth to say everything or even the majority was corrupt), poor education among the clergy, the abuse of indulgences, etc. So technically the issue of "abuses" was taken care of, and what was left was the different theological beliefs, which remain dividing the denominations today.

[Shao Feng-Li]

When did Calvin and Knox show up then? Were they later?

[Slater]

meh... I don't know too much about these things, but aren't they a bit... debatable?

[Arnobius]

When did Calvin and Knox show up then? Were they later?

Yes, these would have been "second generation" when the division had already been in effect (for example, Calvin was 8 when Luther posted his 95 Thesis). They left Catholicism for Protestantism and then established their own denomination from Protestant denominations already existing, if I recall rightly

[Shao Feng-Li]

Wow, I didn't know he was only a kid when Luther had posted the 95 Thesis. I did know he was alive then though. Cool.

[Steeltemplar]

meh... I don't know too much about these things, but aren't they a bit... debatable?

Well, for my part, all I did was explain what Catholics believe since you asked. Is it debatable? Sure. Are we debating about it? I'm not.

If you refer to what AH said, then I should point out that what he posted was essentially a historical statement. He made no qualitive assertions, did not suggest if one side was correct or incorrect. A Protestant could easily have given you that same account.

[Arnobius]

meh... I don't know too much about these things, but aren't they a bit... debatable?

Well, There are over 500 years of division seperating, so I'm sure others have different versions of how it happened, emphasizing different things as the reasons and causes.

I'm trying to be as neutral as possible here as I try to remember what I studied in college when I got my MA in theolog. I'm sorry if any of it sounds like I'm trying to start a debate, or condemning anything. I do have my own belief in the matter, but I'm trying to avoid causing trouble

[Arnobius]

Wow, I didn't know he was only a kid when Luther had posted the 95 Thesis. I did know he was alive then though. Cool.

Yeah. Luther did his posting in 1517, Knox and Calvin did their work in the 1530's and 40's, so about a generation later I guess.

[Zarn Ishtare]

Indeed. And by the time the original Reformers were- dead, the divisions were well in place. Calvin, who believed in the theory or belief of the Elect (Somthing I will not argue here) sparred in his day with free-will theologists, who believed that we shape destiny by our choices (Though of course, both were an umbrella for other, somtimes watered down or lesser forms of the two. )

[Puritan]

Back on topic of confessions, I don't think it's quite correct to say that Protestants have lost confession, but more that the idea has changed form. The focus these days is more on what have been termed "accountability partners" or whatnot, and the idea is that you meet regularly with a spiritual mentor and talk through your sins and problems in your life. While pastors and elders are generally more than willing to sit down with anyone interested and go through a confession/counciling session, most of this type of thing focuses around lay-people meeting and discussing sins on their own.

Since going to confession was such a good experience for your Zarn, you may want to talk with a pastor or elder of your church about meeting with someone regularly for this type of thing as you aren't usually near a Catholic church. I would be really surprised if they weren't happy to set something up.