Afghan Man on Trial for being a Christian

[Puritan]

I found this story in the BBC today, and found it really disturbing. That this Christian could be put to death for converting from Islam is really disturbing, especially since this is still happening while the government is trying to shift to a more reasonable system of law. I can only pray that this man does not have to become a martyr for the faith.

Edit: The link works now

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I think I heard this on the radio this morning. If he is put to death, In the end it is the Heavens rejoycing. Nonetheless, I pray that this man has the courage to stand for what's right. The fact that he stayed to what he believed even when denounced by his family is admirable.

Not to be hating on Islam, but doesn't this sound quite contradictory?

Afghanistan's post-Taleban constitution is based on Sharia law, and prosecutors in the case says this means Abdul Rahman, whose trial began last Thursday, should be put to death...
..."We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.

(Btw you might want to edit the URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4823874.stm)

[mitsuki lover]

A sad reminder that even though the Taliban is no longer running Afghanistan Shirah law is still in effect.Let us not forget that Afghanistan is not the only Moslem country where such conversions are illegal,Saudi Arabia and certain parts of Nigeria also have the same type of law in effect.It should also be remembered that this is nothing new to Afghnaistan either as,I believe,certain areas of country followed Shirah even before the Taliban.
In hindsight maybe we should have allowed the Soviets to remain in Afghanistan,politics aside,considering the number of open or secret Christians that served in the Red Army.

[That Dude]

What I think that we should realize is that things like this happens literally everyday to christians around the world.

[oro!]

We do not hear about them, because these countries would like us to think that they are tolerant, but in Muslim, Communist, and even countries very near us, there is the persecution of those who chose to follow Christ. We should daily pray for them and try to open awareness. I am not sure if the awareness would do anything but make them hide it even more but still do it.

[That Dude]

We do need to pray for that. I think that us as christians need to see that it's worth fighting and dying for like many are doing. And we just need to see what's really going on in the world...Not a sugercoated happy christian version.

[Puritan]

I do know that this type of thing happens to Christians every day around the world, but I still find it appalling when I see displays of injustice so blatant. I hope and pray that these people will be convicted of their sin and that the unjust laws in Afghanistan (and the many other countries in the world using Sharia law) will be overthrown.

[Neko Niisan]

As sad as this is, you'd be suprised how often people are targeted becuase of their Christian Faith.
Things like the 17 year old girl in Nigeria or somewhere like that, who was locked in a storage crate for being a Christian music artist and not renouncing her Faith.
There was also the Buhrnams who were kidnapped in the Philippines and one Graham was killed in the rescue operation.
Then there was the Christian aid party from France(?) that was blown up in 2000 by insergants after preaching to refugees in Afganistan.

The list goes on, this is just a case of it happening in the public eye instead of it just being another terrorist act.

[Steeltemplar]

Seriously, there is a lot I would say here along political lines that I suppose would break the rules of the forum if I did.

However, I can't believe that the judge is talking about Islam being tolerant and then still threatening this man with death. Well, I can believe it, actually, given what I have seen time and time again from the sharia law. But it seems absurd at the same time.

Here's what I want to know: Where's the outrage from other Muslims around the world? You know, there were riots and protests in the streets all across the Muslim world because of some cartoons. So how about seeing some fervor to save an innocent life?

[Lady Macbeth]

Here's what I want to know: Where's the outrage from other Muslims around the world? You know, there were riots and protests in the streets all across the Muslim world because of some cartoons. So how about seeing some fervor to save an innocent life?

There's no outrage because the court is upholding Islamic law rather than flying in direct opposition to it - in fact, if anything, ruling this man innocent and setting him free even if he refuses to revert back to Islam would likely trigger the protests you ask about.

The Muslim outrage over the cartoons came because of the Islamic law prohibition on images of Muhammed - it didn't help that it was an insulting and culturally insensitive image, but technically all depictions of Muhammed are banned under their idolatry law.

Laws regarding infidels and heathens in Islamic law are very clear, at least under conservative rulings. More liberal Muslims do not always favor the death penalty in such cases, but the world is hard pressed to find liberal Muslims in countries living under Islamic law.

It is very easy to stir up feelings of anger and hate among a populace]tolerates[/b] a certain degree of aberrance from the norm. This judge stated that they are willing to tolerate his straying from Islam if he repents what he's done and comes back to the fold. The judge is not required to do that - he theoretically could say that any repentance at this point is merely a ploy to save his life, and thus would render the repentance invalid.

Remember - the accused witches at Salem who refused to repent because they'd truly done nothing wrong were executed despite their innocence; Tituba, the slave who probably was familiar with some aspects of witchcraft plead guilty, repented what she'd done, and was later set free. Kill the innocent to punish sin or free those who repent to encourage repentance? Islam works the same way as Christianity. In a situation where fear, anger and insecurity is on the rise, accusations fly and innocents die - it's a fact of life and religion.

This situation may or may not have happened if Afghanistan were more stable. However, the fact that Afghanistan is unstable - and a source of fear, anger and insecurity for the people living there - allows for a situation like this to come to pass. He knowingly and willingly broke the law - and as unfair as that law may be, it has caught up to him. Sixteen years ago, Afghanistan was living under such a harsh government that everything was kept underground, so there was some measure of covert safety in bringing his Christian beliefs back from Pakistan. Now that the situation has been upset into instability, this type of thing will continue to happen until that country stabilizes again, and non-Muslims are forced to either leave the country or take their beliefs (and accouterments of their beliefs, including books) underground. Should, by some odd chance the country stabilize with a government that is secular, this won't be a problem again - they will be fighting the battles that we have in the United States (which are not always that different - Wiccans still frequently lose their children in custody battles with Judeo-Christians) but will not be under the threat of death and will be able to openly practice their faith.

Considering the country's history and the pervasiveness of Islam in the region, I do not fully expect to see acceptance of Christianity (or any other religion) in Afghanistan any time soon. A higher degree of tolerance, as we see in many Western countries, may come to pass under a secular government, but acceptance is a very, very long way off.

[GhostontheNet]

It is very easy to stir up feelings of anger and hate among a populace]tolerates[/b] a certain degree of aberrance from the norm. This judge stated that they are willing to tolerate his straying from Islam if he repents what he's done and comes back to the fold. The judge is not required to do that - he theoretically could say that any repentance at this point is merely a ploy to save his life, and thus would render the repentance invalid.

Remember - the accused witches at Salem who refused to repent because they'd truly done nothing wrong were executed despite their innocence; Tituba, the slave who probably was familiar with some aspects of witchcraft plead guilty, repented what she'd done, and was later set free. Kill the innocent to punish sin or free those who repent to encourage repentance? Islam works the same way as Christianity. In a situation where fear, anger and insecurity is on the rise, accusations fly and innocents die - it's a fact of life and religion.

Well said post, although one could add government in general as well as life and religion. For example, the first Roman persecution of Christians and probable beginning of the removal of Christianity's status as a legal religion began in the aftermath of the fire of A.D. 64, with a host of more recent examples ranging in level of violence and opression. The difficulty seems to have come at the origin of Christianity holding any real political power, for the purpose of government is to kill or quarantine the people who are percieved to threaten it for good or ill, exalting the strong for order no matter the cost, while Christianity is founded upon the principle that the last will be the first, that the meek will inherit the earth, that those who live by the sword must die by the sword. Little wonder 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 holds that in the end every authority, rule, and power in existence is the enemy of God and will be destroyed before the resurrection of the dead. In the meantime though, it's the lace glove over the iron fist, appearing to varying degrees to be gentle but ever showing it's potential.

[Puritan]

I think that this type of discussion is beginning to stray further into the theological and political discussion than I intended, and I would ask that people try to focus more on the fact that it is a tragedy that anyone can be sentenced to death for being a professing Christian (or for any other religious belief, for that matter). Yes evils have been done in the name of the Church in the past, but this is a discussion for elsewhere. I mainly wanted to remind people that this type of tragedy does still occur, and to encourage them to pray about this issue.

[Steeltemplar]

There's no outrage because the court is upholding Islamic law rather than flying in direct opposition to it - in fact, if anything, ruling this man innocent and setting him free even if he refuses to revert back to Islam would likely trigger the protests you ask about.

Well, this was really the point I was making. However, I was using the questions to provoke thought rather than to simply make the statement.

The fact that the idea of killing this man for being a Christian is, by what you say there, perfectly acceptable by Islamic law is the issue I have. That they are more offended by a set of drawings, flattering or no, of Mohammed than they are by executing this man for accepting a different faith is a very troubling commentary on what they believe.

I will not deny past wrongs done by those calling themselves Christians. However, an important point: The Bible and the doctrines of the Church have never condoned these actions.

Anyway, Puritan is right that we need be careful of political/theological debate. However, I wanted to make my point more clearly understood.

[shooraijin]

I think that this type of discussion is beginning to stray further into the theological and political discussion than I intended, and I would ask that people try to focus more on the fact that it is a tragedy that anyone can be sentenced to death for being a professing Christian (or for any other religious belief, for that matter). Yes evils have been done in the name of the Church in the past, but this is a discussion for elsewhere. I mainly wanted to remind people that this type of tragedy does still occur, and to encourage them to pray about this issue.

Mod note: I think that summarizes what I was going to say very well.

[mitsuki lover]

I hope no-one got the wrong idea that I thought the Soviet invasion in 1980 was a GOOD thing for Afghanistan,what I meant was that compared to living under the Taliban or Shirah law it was probably better.

[MPX42]

However, I can't believe that the judge is talking about Islam being tolerant and then still threatening this man with death. Well, I can believe it, actually, given what I have seen time and time again from the sharia law. But it seems absurd at the same time.

For me,that's always absurd.

[Steeltemplar]

For me,that's always absurd.

Indeed so. However, what I meant is that this sort of absurdity is a regularity with Sharia law. So within their context, it is not hard to believe these people would do this. Within the context of the whole world and the proper moral order, it is indeed an absurdity and a tragic one.

[Puritan]

This issue seems to be heading towards a confrontation between the president of Afghanistan and many of the people in Afghanistan over this issue. This article seems to cover what's going on quite simply, many Western leaders (including our president) and many members of the Christian community are calling for Afghanistan to clarify the law and prevent Abdul Rahman from being executed, while it appears that Muslim religious conservatives in the judiciary and the general populace are insistant that he should be executed. The Afghani government seems to be torn between trying to make a secular government and pleasing the West and trying to prevent a popular uprising if the goverment looks like it operates contrary to the religious beliefs of many of the people. Please keep praying about this, and remeber the courage of Mr. Rahman as he stands for our Lord, perhaps unto death.

[Arnobius]

It is ironic that were this anywhere else in the world, and the person on trial was of any other minority, the world would denounce this mindset in Afghanistan for the bigotry that it is. Instead we have to be careful of "cultural differences" and avoiding "causing offense."

Afghanistan does need to choose between being a nation of law and a nation of mob rule. Some people might say that Christians acted like this once upon a time, but it ignores three crucial facts:

1. In this period, the judicial system was in the hands of the secular authorities who carried out the sentences, not the Church. In contrast, in Afghanistan, it is carried out by judges whose credentials are religious, not legal.
2. It was the legal system of the times, where the concept of human rights and the dignity of the person had not been developed. In contrast Islam is taking a medieval system and forcing it into the present.
3. Among Christians, past events like witch trials are remembered as wrong, and viewed as something gone wrong among some groups of people who professed to believe in name but did not act as a Christian should. In contrast, practitioners of Islam in this case are defiant and proud to be executing a person for what he believes.

Afghanistan is at a dangerous place, where Karzai walks a dangerous line. They can choose to join the modern world that says it is wrong to kill a man just because he believes differently or they can return to the Taliban, which is no different than what these people in the street are espousing.

The leaders of the world will need to choose: to stand with Karzai and promote the freedom of religion, or just stand and watch as a man is murdered for the sole crime of following God as he believes is true.

[Naga Kisaki]

Things like this really make me angry. Sometimes I feel like we should just pull out our troops and teach these kinds of countries a lesson, I wonder why were trying to help them when they don't deserve it. I'll be praying for that man.

[Arnobius]

Things like this really make me angry. Sometimes I feel like we should just pull out our troops and teach these kinds of countries a lesson, I wonder why were trying to help them when they don't deserve it. I'll be praying for that man.

Well, I think the issue is, if they do pull out, then the people who want his murder win, and they hope that they can put pressure on them to change.

However we need to be careful to avoid turning this into a political thread to avoid locking

[USSRGirl]

I found this story in the BBC today, and found it really disturbing. That this Christian could be put to death for converting from Islam is really disturbing, especially since this is still happening while the government is trying to shift to a more reasonable system of law. I can only pray that this man does not have to become a martyr for the faith.

Edit: The link works now

In the meantime, we should all pray for this man and the country in general.

[USSRGirl]

However we need to be careful to avoid turning this into a political thread to avoid locking

Wish I'd read that BEFORE posting my two cents.

[Arnobius]

:eh: Wish I'd read that BEFORE posting my two cents.

Well, you can always edit

[ducheval]

Sometimes I feel like we should just pull out our troops and teach these kinds of countries a lesson, I wonder why were trying to help them when they don't deserve it.

I've never thought of compassion as something that was deserved/not deserved.

I'll be praying for that man.

Think about praying for the people that want to kill him too.

[shooraijin]

[quote="AnimeHeretic"]Well, you can always edit ]

Yes. That might be a good idea. *coughs*

[That Dude]

I think the reason that it's like that is because the Quran preaches violence and death against christians and Jews. So those who TRUELY follow Islam will always advicate jihad.

[Puritan]

Can we please keep this from religious bashing and political talk to prevent the thread from being locked? This is an important piece of news for Christians to think about and pray about, and I'd rather not see it cut because of this type of thing.

[That Dude]

Sorry about that. If that posts causes problems feel free to delete it (this is to the mod's) anyway I won't take it any further than what I've said.

[Roy Mustang]

I have heard on the news that he maybe let go, but I'm not 100% sure on this.


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