People don't really understand...

[Shepherdmoon]

LOL! The worst thing is that the law is really true (Hitler and Stalin was both dragged into this discussion at some point I believe )

Guess you people are right, I think I'll just declare myself as the winner of the discussion in that thread and ignore it from now on

Too bad you had to chat with such ignorant skeptics.

[tripperdan99]

I might be off track, but I just wanted to encourage Dreamhacker to not allow the garbage thrown back at him to dishearten him. Keep your passion, learn more, gain wisdom but never, never allow others to determine your value. That significance comes from a place far greater then man's weak level of intelligence.

Of course I could be wrong, but just thought there was a little battle weariness there.

td99
need to get back to research

[Shepherdmoon]

After reading the thread it is very typical.

[Slater]

what do you mean by "very typical"?

[Sweet Mercury]

and stupid arguements can be hard to counter

Stupid arguments are always the hardest to counter. Generally, stupidity and ingorance are maintained by sheer will and brute force, while intelligence is the result of a kind of submission to discussion and open mindedness.

Bertrand Russell said it best - The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

[Jaltus-bot]

CAA is good except you can't debate. TheologyWeb is full of people who are incredibly intellectual and know their stuff well so it's hard to debate there. I wish there was a inbetween medium for us people who like to debate (politely) but also don't have a mega intelligent brain!

I once created a forum like that but it soon died out. I found another forum through a member of Christian Apologetics Research Ministry (CARM) and this forum is http://www.theholywild.com/forum/index.php. They are a little smarter but it's still not quite as hugely intellectual and they know their stuff.

[Shepherdmoon]

what do you mean by "very typical"?

A lot of talk but no substance.

[Meow Chan]

At school I've noticed that when I bring my bible to school or wear a cross my non-christian friends (one in paticular) seem to resent me for it and they try to make me feel stupid for being christian...it's kinda weird

[tripperdan99]

Emotion trumps Logic, always. Though everyone will ultimately have to face "TRUTH" while on this earth they use their own "truth."

People get emotionally invested in their position and there is nothing, nothing at all that will wave their position. No matter how you look at it, we are held and moved by emotions. We then develop "logic" to defend our emotional position.

td99

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Emotion trumps Logic, always. Though everyone will ultimately have to face "TRUTH" while on this earth they use their own "truth."

People get emotionally invested in their position and there is nothing, nothing at all that will wave their position. No matter how you look at it, we are held and moved by emotions. We then develop "logic" to defend our emotional position.

td99

However, you can't really use emotion as an argument. Going "People around me were crying all filled with the holy spirit" doesn't really convince people. They will simply go "well that was just psychosematic or psychological."

Perhaps existential relevance only means something with you and other Christians around you? (And of course ultimately with God)

[Nate]

Emotion trumps Logic, always.

Incorrect. If emotion trumped logic, all the people who feel that God doesn't exist would be right. Logic trumps emotion, always. God is a God of logic, His logic is laid down in the Bible, and is irrefutable. If your emotions tell you something against God's word, you're wrong. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. This alone is enough to prove that logic is far greater than emotion.

[Shepherdmoon]

¨Incorrect. If emotion trumped logic, all the people who feel that God doesn't exist would be right. Logic trumps emotion, always. God is a God of logic, His logic is laid down in the Bible, and is irrefutable. If your emotions tell you something against God's word, you're wrong. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. This alone is enough to prove that logic is far greater than emotion.¨
¨If emotion trumped logic, all the people who feel that God doesn't exist would be right.¨
Well it would be a contradiction because the majority of believers will be right and the Godless will be right.

¨If your emotions tell you something against God's word, you're wrong.¨
Here,Here

¨Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. This alone is enough to prove that logic is far greater than emotion.¨
You have one problem not everyone sees the light or,in the same way you do.

[tripperdan99]

However, you can't really use emotion as an argument. Going "People around me were crying all filled with the holy spirit" doesn't really convince people. They will simply go "well that was just psychosematic or psychological."

Perhaps existential relevance only means something with you and other Christians around you? (And of course ultimately with God)

Emotion is never the argument, it prepares the path for exchange.

Plus we tend to make huge jumps in assumptions when there is something outside our box. I'm very analytical to the point of trying to be a recovering analytical, it's a flaw that I strugle with. Plus I'm not all that intelligent and often I do not communicate as effective as I wish I could. I tend to be basic and see things in simple terms.

To address your question: If one basis all facts or knowledge upon experience, then there is no faith.

Despite our addictions to emotions, there are Principles that can not be broken. We can but break ourselves upon them.

So the answer is No. LOL

td99

PS He will take the foolish things and confound the wise...

[Nate]

Well it would be a contradiction because the majority of believers will be right and the Godless will be right.

Right, which is why I'm saying that logic is far greater than emotion. If two people feel a certain way, only one of them can be right. Ultimately, that's where the argument that "emotion trumps logic" falls apart, because if a person sincerely believes with all their heart that God does not exist, if you believe that emotion trumps logic, then that person is right. Since this is not the case, emotion does not trump logic.

I'm very analytical to the point of trying to be a recovering analytical, it's a flaw that I strugle with.

How is being analytical a flaw? I'm exceptionally analytical, and I've never seen it as a hindrance. In fact, I see it as helpful, because I am able to better understand why it is I believe what I do. There was a period where I almost gave up on God entirely, but after about a week I sat down and analyzed everything there was that I believed, and concluded after my analysis that yes, Christianity is correct.

I don't see why people feel that logic and faith are enemies. They aren't, and I despise it when people make it out to be so.

If one basis all facts or knowledge upon experience, then there is no faith.

Agreed. But experience must not be ignored either.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

To address your question: If one basis all facts or knowledge upon experience, then there is no faith.

O.o huh? I never asked that.

But what I think that ero-sennin is trying to say ( ) is that your experience with God is more important than the logical reasons as to why there is a God, or answers to alleged contradiction, etc.

[tripperdan99]

O.o huh? I never asked that.

But what I think that ero-sennin is trying to say ( ) is that your experience with God is more important than the logical reasons as to why there is a God, or answers to alleged contradiction, etc.

My apologies, and yes I concur.

** Looks up at previous couple of replies...**

hummm, they seem very passionate about logic...

paradox?

Being analytical flaw or not? Balance is one of the most critical element of exsistence. This might sound strange, but sometimes I think/feel that being analytical and knowledgeable has far less to do with Wisdom than we assume.

td99

[Night]

Not to sound like a jerk here, but the people on that forum seem to be the non-conformist type of aethist. I've had a run in with this type several times. Trying to prove their way is right by any means possible. And if you say anything in your defense, they call you a conformist nazi and say that you are trying to force your beliefs on them while they do the same thing.

Just try not to defend your religion against administrators with issues. I've been banned and threatened with my life for defending my beliefs. Not to sound like a martyr mind you, I'm probably not religious enough to state that.

The best way to deal with this type of person is to ignore them and turn the other cheek. Otherwise, they'll get you riled up and it'll just add more fuel to the fire. They want to act like fools with dookies in their brains, let them.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Not to sound like a jerk here, but the people on that forum seem to be the non-conformist type of aethist. I've had a run in with this type several times. Trying to prove their way is right by any means possible. And if you say anything in your defense, they call you a conformist nazi and say that you are trying to force your beliefs on them while they do the same thing.

Pretty much. I was posting on a kingdom hearts forum, and some of the guys there were insane! They seriously knew their stuff. On that forum (I started posting on page 129+) It seemed more friendly and more lighter for me XD

[tripperdan99]

... and say that you are trying to force your beliefs on them while they do the same thing.

The best way to deal with this type of person is to ignore them and turn the other cheek. Otherwise, they'll get you riled up and it'll just add more fuel to the fire. They want to act like fools with dookies in their brains, let them.

Thanks for putting it in a nut shell night. That conclusion is what I've come to in my life. Especially with anything that involves interacting with people on the Web. On the Internet there's a certain type of, what I would call, "social autism" that prevails, or could be called a type of lower "social IQ" Maybe it's the element of "unaccountability" that brings these displays.

td99

[Shepherdmoon]

Right, which is why I'm saying that logic is far greater than emotion. If two people feel a certain way, only one of them can be right. Ultimately, that's where the argument that "emotion trumps logic" falls apart, because if a person sincerely believes with all their heart that God does not exist, if you believe that emotion trumps logic, then that person is right. Since this is not the case, emotion does not trump logic.


How is being analytical a flaw? I'm exceptionally analytical, and I've never seen it as a hindrance. In fact, I see it as helpful, because I am able to better understand why it is I believe what I do. There was a period where I almost gave up on God entirely, but after about a week I sat down and analyzed everything there was that I believed, and concluded after my analysis that yes, Christianity is correct.

I don't see why people feel that logic and faith are enemies. They aren't, and I despise it when people make it out to be so.


Agreed. But experience must not be ignored either.

¨Right, which is why I'm saying that logic is far greater than emotion. If two people feel a certain way, only one of them can be right. Ultimately, that's where the argument that "emotion trumps logic" falls apart, because if a person sincerely believes with all their heart that God does not exist, if you believe that emotion trumps logic, then that person is right. Since this is not the case, emotion does not trump logic.¨

Not everyone can see through emotion.

¨How is being analytical a flaw? I'm exceptionally analytical, and I've never seen it as a hindrance. In fact, I see it as helpful, because I am able to better understand why it is I believe what I do. There was a period where I almost gave up on God entirely, but after about a week I sat down and analyzed everything there was that I believed, and concluded after my analysis that yes, Christianity is correct.¨

Others have the opposite experience. Let me just clarify what i said last post not everyone will see the logic people have different experiences so what i am saying is that not everyone will see the ¨logic¨ like you have.


¨Not to sound like a jerk here, but the people on that forum seem to be the non-conformist type of aethist. I've had a run in with this type several times. Trying to prove their way is right by any means possible. And if you say anything in your defense, they call you a conformist nazi and say that you are trying to force your beliefs on them while they do the same thing.

Just try not to defend your religion against administrators with issues. I've been banned and threatened with my life for defending my beliefs. Not to sound like a martyr mind you, I'm probably not religious enough to state that.

The best way to deal with this type of person is to ignore them and turn the other cheek. Otherwise, they'll get you riled up and it'll just add more fuel to the fire. They want to act like fools with dookies in their brains, let them.¨

Not all atheist are conformist stupid hate filled liars.

[The Last Bard]

Shepherdmoon:

Just try not to defend your religion against administrators with issues. I've been banned and threatened with my life for defending my beliefs. Not to sound like a martyr mind you, I'm probably not religious enough to state that.

You don't state that your a martyr.

This is what a martyr is:

Historically, a martyr is a person who dies for their convictions or religious faith, such as during the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. (Wikipedia.com)

You're not going to sound like a martyr, nor are you ever going to call yourself a martyr.

[Slater]

Well I wouldn't say that. People are still being martyred today. You never know...

[Night]

A martyr is actually a person who dies or is persecuted for his or her beliefs. It doesn't neccasarily have to be religious. Could be political as well.

[Sweet Mercury]

A martyr is actually a person who dies or is persecuted for his or her beliefs. It doesn't neccasarily have to be religious. Could be political as well.

I think the offense here comes from comparing being banned on an internet forum to being burned alive by Roman persecuters.

[Night]

I wasn't trying to compare myself. Just was trying to say that I'm trying not to be arrogant about that situation.

[Sweet Mercury]

I wasn't trying to compare myself. Just was trying to say that I'm trying not to be arrogant about that situation.

Ah, well, I was just speculating. I'm not easily offended.

[Shepherdmoon]

Now this is a thread on martyrdom?

[Rogie]

This is quickly getting off-topic and I can foresee only more debating.

So, this one's locked. Quit the petty arguing, people.