America flunking science

[Shepherdmoon]

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101060213,00.html So sad but thank goodness Bush talked about this important issue in his state of the union.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I for one am doing terrible in Chemistry... and I don't really care.

[Shepherdmoon]

I for one am doing terrible in Chemistry... and I don't really care.

Sad to hear you say that do you realize all science has done for you.And that attitude is why we are flunking.

[Puritan]

Sad? I personally question the furvor going on about the US "flunking" science, because I personally don't see what these people are talking about. Admitted, I am only a grad student in a single engineering field (nuclear engineering), but I worked at a national lab as an intern and am currently doing research work for my Master's degree, and from what I see research and science are alive and well in the US. Research in my field is booming in a way that hasn't happened for decades, and from my understanding the same thing is happening in other research focuses as well. Sure, fewer students from abroad may be staying in the US and other countries are catching up to our output of high-technology goods, but what do you expect? There are many countries around the world that are trying to catch up to our level of development in the infastructure and scientific areas, so it is silly to expect that one country of 250 million people will dominate the high-technology aspects of a planet of 6 billion people. While I am all for an emphasis on math and hard science education in schools and a new government dedication to pure research, I don't see the picture as being anywhere near as bleak as this article paints it. We aren't falling behind, we simply need to continually work to keep our science and engineering education standards high and encourage people to enter these fields.

[Shepherdmoon]

well the article says we are near flunking it has a page telling how america is still on top fot now at least.

[Tringard]

I for one am doing terrible in Chemistry... and I don't really care.

that's unfortunate, chemistry was likely my favorite science (close run with physics, which I actually went further with...)

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I dislike all lab sciences, too much math calculation and crunching numbers. I don't really care much for what Alpha Decay does and what happens when you get an aqueous solution from this and that and such.

The sciences I tend to perfer revolve around human development and people. Such as psychology, it's fun for me to just type in "sociopath" in wikipedia or webmd and just read about what it is. That is far more interesting than lab sciences.

[Nate]

The sciences I tend to perfer revolve around human development and people. Such as psychology, it's fun for me to just type in "sociopath" in wikipedia or webmd and just read about what it is. That is far more interesting than lab sciences.

I hate to burst your bubble, Ryan, but there's a LOT of number crunching and math calculations in those, too. Everything we know in psychology comes from experimentation, and results are given statistically. Statistics are a pretty big part of math there, buddy. I'm sorry you don't like math, but you're going to have math no matter WHAT you do, so you'd better learn to like it, because you're never going to get away from it.

[Slater]

yep. Higher-level math came about because it had scientific purposes. Without math, we have no science, really.

[Doubleshadow]

I think you are right Purtian. Sounds like a scare tactics headline to me. A big, shocking pronouncement to get the potential readers (read: money sources) cash as they are manipulated into buying the issue. They talk about companies prevailing concerns with the bottom line hurting the industry and yet they do not mind exaggerating for effect to make money themselves. One can not see the long term and the other needs a quick refresher on the definition of accuracy.
I have known about these things for years, and of course everyone knew it was coming. How in the world does that translate to flunking the sciences? Everything one needed to know to understand the situation was in that article. That headline was totally sensationalist.
America gave brilliant minds lots of money of the years, and now changes in economics and global politics has led to a smaller number of brilliant minds and less funding. So what? The perceived problem is easy to fix, and obviously they are doing that. I think what is really supposed to be frightening and shocking in the article is America's general obliviousness to its own complacency. Brittany Spears indeed.
I am studying chemistry (ACS certified) and biochemistry and have been studying the medical and pharmaceutical applications of biotechnology for a while now. Merck funded me this summer, NASA itself is funding my research this semester and I have applied for a Goldwater Fellowship. Tomorrow I will go explain the applications of my work to some old folks in the hope they will support research at my home university, with an emphasis on applications like the manufacture of cheaper insulin or new ways to fight Alzheimer’s (now THAT is fun to read about and I would love to try) rather than methods. Plus, the little note on stem cells irks me; one of the professor at my university patented a way to make stem cells from somatic cells (and he offered me a chance to work in his lab! I turned him down in favor my current research).
Times change and people adapt or get left behind, that's hardly worthy of headlines.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I hate to burst your bubble, Ryan, but there's a LOT of number crunching and math calculations in those, too. Everything we know in psychology comes from experimentation, and results are given statistically. Statistics are a pretty big part of math there, buddy. I'm sorry you don't like math, but you're going to have math no matter WHAT you do, so you'd better learn to like it, because you're never going to get away from it.

Yeah I realize that. But it's also more interesting then chem and such.

[Lynx]

i'd have to agree with puritan and doubleshadow. at my university, i study microbio with a minor in chemistry. We're doing a lot of research here in a variety of topics.

if america is flunking science, it's probably at the highschool level. at my old highschool, a lot of kids really struggled with science... and the basic required science classes were a joke.

[Flying Tigers]

i'd have to agree with puritan and doubleshadow. at my university, i study microbio with a minor in chemistry. We're doing a lot of research here in a variety of topics.

if america is flunking science, it's probably at the highschool level. at my old highschool, a lot of kids really struggled with science... and the basic required science classes were a joke.

I agree with you, the public schools of the U.S. are a joke. I believe they are going to a become a propaganda spreaders for political opponents ,in the future, if we don't do anything to stop it now.

[Myoti]

I dropped Chem (for this semester, anyways). I'll have to take SOMETHING next semester (Adv. Chem. or Biology II...), but that doesn't mean I like it (or see any purpose in me taking it...).

[Mangafanatic]

And that attitude is why we are flunking.

SM, I'm all for encouraging our members to do their best in every aspect of their lives, but I'd really appreciate it if we could be as positive as possible about it, okay? Rather than say "That attitude is why we are flunking", I think you'd probably accomplish more by saying "I'm sure if you put your mind to it and tried your best, you could do wonderfully in chemistry!" (Or, you know, something to that affect that isn't quite so feminine XD.) Remember, kind word turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. I'm sure you didn't mean to be harsh, and I might be overreacting, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

I dropped Chem (for this semester, anyways). I'll have to take SOMETHING next semester (Adv. Chem. or Biology II...), but that doesn't mean I like it (or see any purpose in me taking it...).

You know, I've struggled with this same feeling. When I took French and Geometry, I was so often stuck by the thought "I'm never going to use this. Why am I even doing this!?"

But you know what I've realized, guys-- even if you don't ever use the subject again, there can be a purpose for doing what you're doing. That purpose is to show Christ. In Collosians, we're commended, no matter what we do, to "do it all for the glory of God." Sadly, guys, when we say "I don't care about this", what we're really saying is "I don't care to take advantage of the opportunity that God gave me." Your performance reflect to our world the glory of God. Please, don't give God a "D-" in glory.

We can never know exactly what God will want to do with us, but we can know for certain that His will for us is never to do anything half-heartedly. My mother, in high school, said "I refuse to ever do anything that's going to involve science." She's a nurse. I pledged I would never do anything math related. I'm now a business major.

And I know a lot of kids who say "Look, I'm going into ministry. None of this stuff matters." Well, I have to tell you something, guys-- if your teacher knows you're a Christian and you're failing a class because you "don't care"-- you're putting a blemish on the sacred name of Christ. My youth pastor's wife is a Spanish teacher and a Christian, and she's said that the teachers at her school are constantly talking about the kids who put Bibles on the same desks over which they pass tests for which they've done no preparation because they're going to be pastors one day and show the world the nature of Jesus. All the witnessing my youth pastor's wife does is obliterated by these kids who claim to be "little Christs" who fail class after class because they're "never going to use it " and because "they don't care."

Witness with your word. Witness with your life. Witness with your History Test.

[Shepherdmoon]

i'd have to agree with puritan and doubleshadow. at my university, i study microbio with a minor in chemistry. We're doing a lot of research here in a variety of topics.

if america is flunking science, it's probably at the highschool level. at my old highschool, a lot of kids really struggled with science... and the basic required science classes were a joke.

Correct it is mainly at the highschool level.

[TurkishMonky]

almost half my Physics 211 class is below 60% average... the second time they are taking this class...

[Mr. SmartyPants]

But you know what I've realized, guys-- even if you don't ever use the subject again, there can be a purpose for doing what you're doing. That purpose is to show Christ. In Collosians, we're commended, no matter what we do, to "do it all for the glory of God." Sadly, guys, when we say "I don't care about this", what we're really saying is "I don't care to take advantage of the opportunity that God gave me." Your performance reflect to a world the glory of God. Please, don't give God a "D-" in glory.

We can never know exactly what God will want to do with us, but we can know for certain that his will for us is never to do anything half-heartedly. My mother, in high school, said "I refuse to ever do anything that's going to involve science." She's a nurse. I pledged I would never do anything math related. I'm now a business major.

And I know a lot of kids who say "Look, I'm going into ministry. None of this stuff matters." Well, I have to tell you something, guys-- if your teacher knows you're a Christian and you're failing a class because you "don't care"-- you're butting a blemish on the sacred name of Christ. My youth pastor's wife is a Spanish teacher and a Christian, and she's said that the teachers at her school are constantly talking about the kids who put Bibles on the desks over which they pass tests for which they've done no preparation because they're going to be pastors one day and show the world the nature of Jesus. All the witnessing my youth pastor's wife does is obliterated by these kids who claim to be "little Christs" who fail class after class because they're "never going to use it " and because "they don't care."

Witness with your word. Witness with your life. Witness with your History Test.

Quite right. I guess I'm lucky (or divine intervention?) to have the chem teacher I have now. He's a Christian Brother and all, and I like to have some friendly discussions with him regarding Theology and Macroevolution and such.

[Mangafanatic]

Quite right. I guess I'm lucky (or divine intervention?) to have the chem teacher I have now. He's a Christian brother and all, and I like to have some friendly discussions with him regarding Theology and Macroevolution and such.

That is fortunate-- But what about all of your class mates? Still, regardless of your teacher's religion or even the religion of the other students, you as a student have been given an opportunity to succeed at something for Christ's glory and reknown and to gain a skill God might want to use in you later.

[Puritan]

I even have to question the assumption that we are failing science at the high-school level. Look, when US students leave college they are in general on par with similar students in other countries. Our high-school programs are denigrated, but they cannot be as trashy as people make them out to be if our students can survive colleges and leave with the knowledge they do. I will admit, our high-school is less academically rigorous than other countries, but is that a bad thing? We stress social skills and prepare students for US colleges, which are generally considered more rigorous than their overseas counterparts, hence the parity in college graduates. We also stress creative and exploratory thinking far more than many other educational systems do, which gives our graduates the ability to think creatively about problems that many systems which teach by rote do not have. This is a HUGE advantage in science education, as simply doing things the same way they have been done before doesn't advance knowledge or technology. I'm not trying to criticize other educational systems, far from it in fact. But I want to stress that our schools generally accomplish their task admirably, namely preparing students for their job or college after high school. It seems to me that if they can prepare students for what they do after high school, they have done their jobs well even if the student doesn't understand Calculus or advanced Physics. As we seem to have an adequate supply of workers and college students, the system seems to be working. That doesn't mean we should stop improving, it simply means that our system isn't as broken as many people claim it to be.

[The Last Bard]

No offense, but why have you posted two consecutive topics on America failing at something? I'm all for supporting people in areas of there lives where they need help, but please don't post too many topics on America failing.

[ssj2gohan61]

science....who needs it

[Nate]

science....who needs it

Well, you apparently do, because without science you couldn't have made this post.

[Lynx]

I even have to question the assumption that we are failing science at the high-school level. Look, when US students leave college they are in general on par with similar students in other countries. Our high-school programs are denigrated, but they cannot be as trashy as people make them out to be if our students can survive colleges and leave with the knowledge they do. I will admit, our high-school is less academically rigorous than other countries, but is that a bad thing? We stress social skills and prepare students for US colleges, which are generally considered more rigorous than their overseas counterparts, hence the parity in college graduates. We also stress creative and exploratory thinking far more than many other educational systems do, which gives our graduates the ability to think creatively about problems that many systems which teach by rote do not have. This is a HUGE advantage in science education, as simply doing things the same way they have been done before doesn't advance knowledge or technology. I'm not trying to criticize other educational systems, far from it in fact. But I want to stress that our schools generally accomplish their task admirably, namely preparing students for their job or college after high school. It seems to me that if they can prepare students for what they do after high school, they have done their jobs well even if the student doesn't understand Calculus or advanced Physics. As we seem to have an adequate supply of workers and college students, the system seems to be working. That doesn't mean we should stop improving, it simply means that our system isn't as broken as many people claim it to be.

In my experience, most of the people who are majoring in a science either too 1) science electives in highschool in addition to the required sciences or 2) took honors or AP science courses instead of the general basic ones.

at my old highschool we had the cop-out required science courses for people who didnt care, and they were a joke. we also had some very nice more advanced science courses that have proved very useful to me in college.

[Technomancer]

science....who needs it

As a student, you need to learn about science and technology, because by not doing so you restrict your career options before you've even found out whether or not something is truly interesting. You also limit your intellectual growth in the same way you would limit it by ignoring art or literature. As a person, you need some individual life skills about how things work and why (hint: don't mix the bleach with the ammonia), as well as being an informed consumer.

In addition, as a citizen you also have the duty to be an informed voter. Many political issues require at least some basic knowledge of science to be intelligible, and for one to make a reasonable decision on. By refusing to learn the necessary material, you at best abdicate decision making to other people, who may not have your best interests at heart. At worst, you help to ensure that critical national decisions are based on emotion and political gain, rather than sound analysis. This is not a good state of affairs.

As a personal recommendation, if anyone is interested in this sort of issue, I heartily recommend reading Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World". It's an excellent book.

[Slater]

science....who needs it

never think that science isn't worth noticing. God created the laws and orders of the universe, therefore science deserves great respect.

[mitsuki lover]

Part of the problem could be that we no longer have the Soviets around to push us on.When Sputnik went up in the '50s it spurred American science education.But now that we no longer have a Soviet Union to worry about what's to keep pushing us to improve our science education?We need to have someone to compete against.

[Mangafanatic]

Part of the problem could be that we no longer have the Soviets around to push us on.

No, now we have North Korea and Iran.

[blkmage]

Or China and India, who are supposedly stealing all the tech jobs and racking up the science and math know-how.

[Allegro]

Well, after having (almost) failed high school Physics, I would have said good riddance to science after I graduated.

But after realizing the importance of such a subject in college and in my major, it prompted me to take three semesters on the very subject I had nearly flunked earlier. It doesn't really hit you until you realize that science and math will always be there, even if you manage to never look back.