Is living a Christian life hard in today's society?

[Puritan]

I am confused. Fundy atheists? The reason Christians have trouble living their lives is because humans are corrupt and in dire need of God. Whatever you mean by fundy atheists, human nature itself is at fault, not a specific group or belief.

[That Dude]

I agree with you Puritan. The farther you are away from the truth the more you fight against it.

[GhostontheNet]

I am confused. Fundy atheists? The reason Christians have trouble living their lives is because humans are corrupt and in dire need of God. Whatever you mean by fundy atheists, human nature itself is at fault, not a specific group or belief.

"Fundy atheist is like a slang term at places like Theology Web for atheists who have an attitude and behavior extraordinarily similar to that which has made many fundamentalists of various religions infamous. I wouldn't go so far as to say the Bible will never be acceptable to mainstream society, but it certainly has a long way to go yet.

[Yumie]

I guess the only thing that I keep coming back to is that we as Christians are really spoiled by living here. I don't believe we even know the true meaning of persecution. We get caught up in our pride and are upset when people mock us or reject us, but is that really a big deal? I mean, for instance: I went to the Passion conference this past month, and John Piper told a story about this man in a village in Africa (I believe it was Africa, I'm a little shady on the details because I only heard it once) and he accepted Jesus and was so excited that he ran back to his village to tell his people. But when he told them, they thought he was crazy and threw him into the streets and let the women of the village beat him with barbed wire until he was unconcious. Then they hauled him out of the village and left him to die in the desert. Amazingly, he survived, and went back, thinking he must have somehow said it wrong. But their response was the same the second time, and they beat him again, tearing his wounds back open. He woke up out of the village again, and finally hauled himself back into that village one more time, and they beat him again. But then, seeing all that he'd been through, their hearts softened and they took care of him until he was back to health. The village accepted the Good News after that.

Can any of you all say that you've been through anything nearly that bad? I know I can't. I don't even know if I could tolerate it, because the thought of any pain in my perfectly comfortable American life is such a foreign thing. We are a comfort-seeking people, so much so that even being made fun of is a miserable experience for most of us. But I'm so thankful that I don't have to worry about being dipped in tar, hung upside down, and set on fire to light Nero's gardens, as many early Christians were; that I will probably never be stoned; that I will more than likely never spend tortuous years in prison; and that I can even take part in a website called CHRISTIAN ANIME ALLIANCE. These are all amazing things that we should always thank God for.

As for the idea that physical torment is better than spiritual torment-- aren't the two so intertwined that you can't even seperate them? I mean, if I am under threat of being physically tortured unless I renounce Christ, won't I be tempted spiritually to do so? And about the blatant sexuality of our society-- it's not as though this was a sin invented in 1963. This kind of gross behavior has been going on forever. So, I believe that spiritual and physical torment can be essentially one in the same thing. I just want to encourage everyone to be grateful for how good things are, instead of focusing on the more minor hardships we face. I don't want to make light of anyone's persecution that they may be facing, but just remember, it can be and has been a lot worse.

[rocklobster]

I once read this somewhere and I thought it'd fit in here:
If it was easy, it wouldn't be worthwhile!

[Mangafanatic]

If it wasn't easy, it wouldn't be worthwhile!

Do you, maybe, mean "If it was easy, it wouldn't be worthwhile?" or "If it wasn't hard, it wouldn't be worthwhile?"

[rocklobster]

Oops. Yeah, I just changed it. Thanks.

[Puritan]

I think you have a point, Yumie, we should be careful about moaning about minor difficulties in life or small problems because things could often be much worse. But,I think that in many ways the struggle for Christians in most industrialized nations is more a struggle against moral decay than struggle for life and limb, and I think that this struggle is just as dangerous as a struggle for our lives. We must struggle against greed, gluttony, lust, pride, complacency, and other "civilized" and "acceptable" sins. These sins are insidious and difficult to resist because they often seem quite harmless, but they are deadly to the believer. I think "Pilgrim's Progress" (one of my favorite books) illustrates the point quite nicely. Of all the trials Christian must go through, the majority of them are social or psychological: the slough of despond, the moral temptations of Mr. Worldly-Wiseman, the physical pleasures of Vanity Fair, the religious deviancy of By-Ways meadow leading to the giants Dispair and Diffidence. In our lives we must deal with many similar trials, and it is often these which present the largest danger to our Christian walk.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

All your politicians are christians, most of your laws are based on christian dogma.

Ohhh that is definately not true. I assume this is a stereorype or misconception. But there are SOOOO many anti-christian politicians in the US that are trying to stop religion and such. And instead trying to be "neutral" with secularism.

I went to Poland for a missions trip. Yes there is religion there, but a lot of the religion there is just a "mask" and is kind of there for the heck of being there. No real connection with God

[Puritan]

The US seems very Christain from the outside, our population regularly lists religion and spirituality as important priorities on surveys and whatnot. However, my experience has been that the "Christianity" and religion most people have here is more akin to that of Thomas Jefferson, in the sense that he cut and arranged bits from the Bible to form what is now known as the "Jefferson Bible" so that he wouldn't have to accept miracles, prophecies, and the like. Rather than accept the Bible as truth, much of our country prefers to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe and ignore the things that interfere with our culture or our fun. Our country looks religious, but much is simply a verneer.

[Slater]

yes, but we must remember (as stated earlier) that the majority of those who call themselves Christian are probably not Christian. Many people call themselves Christians just so that they can associate themselves with a certain group in society. Indeed, we have a lot of churches and they are pretty well maintained (in comparison to many other countries), but we all know that churchgoing alone doesn't make anyone a Christian.

[Mugendai]

Wouldn't know, aint one of yall.

. I wouldn't go so far as to say the Bible will never be acceptable to mainstream society, but it certainly has a long way to go yet.

You kiddin'? The bible IS mainstream for the US, almost everywhere I go I see christians, christian references. ----, even on the dollar and the pledge of allegiance there are mentions of God. (IMO, should be removed. Seperation of church n' state n' all.)

[Lady Macbeth]

The US seems very Christain from the outside, our population regularly lists religion and spirituality as important priorities on surveys and whatnot. However, my experience has been that the "Christianity" and religion most people have here is more akin to that of Thomas Jefferson, in the sense that he cut and arranged bits from the Bible to form what is now known as the "Jefferson Bible" so that he wouldn't have to accept miracles, prophecies, and the like. Rather than accept the Bible as truth, much of our country prefers to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe and ignore the things that interfere with our culture or our fun. Our country looks religious, but much is simply a verneer.

America is all about "redefining" - it's all we do anymore. That's why we import everything, from necessities to entertainment. "Cut and paste" beliefs are popular not just in Christianity but in all other religions found in the United States as well. That's why books that discuss Buddhism often make a separate distinction for American Buddhists - the only ones in the world who proclaim that their religion is Buddhism, yet still drive their $50,000 SUV to their $100,000 a year corporate job.

It's exceptionally hard to realize that there are things in life besides money, "stuff", and prestige.

You kiddin'? The bible IS mainstream for the US, almost everywhere I go I see christians, christian references. ----, even on the dollar and the pledge of allegiance there are mentions of God. (IMO, should be removed. Seperation of church n' state n' all.)

The Bible is hardly mainstream. References to "God", assumed to be the Christian God because of our country's roots, can be found in many places. If it were mainstream, however, such references would not be under attack.

If the Bible itself were mainstream, you could walk up to anyone on the street and ask them how many Gospels are in the Bible and who they are named after. You could ask someone how many Letters are in the Bible without getting a "Duh?" look or having someone open a Bible and start counting letter-by-letter. Children would be able to recite the names of Noah's family like they recite the names of Harry Potter's family - that is when a book is "mainstream".

That's part of what makes it difficult for Christians in this country - the absolute ignorance of the vast majority in regard to Christianity. Those true to their faith are regarded with suspicion and a certain amount of disdain and aloofness ("Wouldn't know, aint one of yall") because there is virtually no understanding of how someone could limit themselves and put restrictions on themselves when America screams "no limits" and "no restrictions". We're a country torn between wanting moral limits, yet when those moral limits seem to inhibit our personal wants and goals, then wanting those limits removed.

America is the "Land of Opportunity". Unfortunately, over the years it has become taken to mean the "Land of My Opportunity to be on Top". That makes it exceptionally difficult for those who don't want to be on top at the cost of moral and ethical values.

[GhostontheNet]

Wouldn't know, aint one of yall.

You kiddin'? The bible IS mainstream for the US, almost everywhere I go I see christians, christian references. Hell, even on the dollar and the pledge of allegiance there are mentions of God. (IMO, should be removed. Seperation of church n' state n' all.)

As to those references and their preludes among some of the founders, the missing variable in so much of the debating is the almost total collapse of deism as a worldview with atheism and agnosticism taking it's place in the same roles as deism took. It is an error when so many have taken on the same term to think that everyone means the same thing when they speak of "God", and if deism was still popular, there would be no contradiction between such slogans and the seperation of Church and State - for the deists didn't particularly worship anything, perhaps only marvel detatchedly at their detatched God. It also depends on what you mean by "mainstream", not for no reason has the Bible become the cliche for the book which everyone owns to allow dust collection. It really depends on what sphere of society you are talking about as to how much of an effect it has, and in my reading the Bible hasn't had it's full due effect even on those organizations whose image depends upon a percieved strong inerrancy of the Bible. I will admit though, that in my road trips to Florida from time to time the deeper south I go the more I see ubiquitous Christian influence(except for parts of Kansas, directly west of here in Colorado), but nowhere near as much over here at all. There is also a social stigma upon all religious dialogue and behavior in public places and in much of the media forms, with the topic or behavior only being brought out if it has to be or if there is an opportunity to shame or discredit religious individuals/organizations/beliefs in the process of telling a story, whether truth or fiction. It is my personal observation from Bible reading that every organization in this country with any real influence here is a long way from the actual political positions of the Bible itself, as I pointed out from the first, but with many having something of an illusory Biblical conformity syndrome.

[Arnobius]

yes, but we must remember (as stated earlier) that the majority of those who call themselves Christian are probably not Christian. Many people call themselves Christians just so that they can associate themselves with a certain group in society. Indeed, we have a lot of churches and they are pretty well maintained (in comparison to many other countries), but we all know that churchgoing alone doesn't make anyone a Christian.

Not that I'm taking sides, but I imagine many of these people would take offense as being labeled "not Christian." America can be considered morally lax yes, but to say that they are not Christian troubles me in that it seems to remind me of the parable Christ told of the Pharasee and the tax collector.

We're saying "I thank You God that I am not like that tax collector." Not unless one can look inside their hearts the way God can, can someone be labelled this way. We need to live in the world but not be of it. Be a witness of Christ in our daily life.

I think we should consider the image we would represent to the outside world. Will they look at us and see the holiness of Christians? Or will they look at us and see narrow minded hostility to everyone not of their clique?

[GhostontheNet]

America is all about "redefining" - it's all we do anymore. That's why we import everything, from necessities to entertainment. "Cut and paste" beliefs are popular not just in Christianity but in all other religions found in the United States as well. That's why books that discuss Buddhism often make a separate distinction for American Buddhists - the only ones in the world who proclaim that their religion is Buddhism, yet still drive their $50,000 SUV to their $100,000 a year corporate job.

It's exceptionally hard to realize that there are things in life besides money, "stuff", and prestige.

Well, of course similar phenomenon could be thought of in places like Japan I suppose to my reading, where Buddhist priests have acquired a bad reputation of vast overcharging in handling funerals. People complain about hypocrites within Christianity, but on some level the old proverb of "garbage in, garbage out" remains true - the mainstream culture enculturates people in acts of dishonor, evil, hypocricy, and selfishness, and many Christians likewise follow the mainstream culture in acts of dishonor, evil, hypocricy, and selfishness, bringing shame upon us all. This belief that money, "stuff", and prestige, i.e. honor, that is, being valued by other people is all there is to life reveals that America and the West (and places like Japan and such) has sold itself to and broadcast around the world what Keiji Nishitani rightly calls crypto-nihilism - that because life is actually meaningless one will divise silly little games of life to give it narrative and meaning like Collect a Lot More than You Need or Even Really Want, Exploit the Disadvantaged, and Poison the World (TM). No, Nishitani didn't go that far himself explicitly, but identifying the conquest of nihilism as the major task of modern philosophy says alot by itself. This is also why nobody much likes groups and individuals that demonstrate open despair like artists, philosophers, musicians, goths, emos, or anybody of the like, having rejected the concept of hiding behind rose colored glasses and keeping all of this pain that gets through this rosy 'barrier' hidden in the closet beyond much needed healing while society gets racked in it. People talk of a Christian heritage for America, or others an Enlightenment/Endarkenment heritage with an implicit lack of such a thing, but as far as I can tell, there was no homogenity of such a thing, but a twin heritage of both in conflict from the beginning. Thus we have things like Thomas Paine's anti-Christian work The Age of Reason and Jefferson's letter, himself being a deist, stating that he will be astonished if all the American churches do not soon reject trinitarianism in favor of unitarianism - this is a fortuitous calling card, and another example of the beggining of fulfillment of David's very old oracle in Psalm 2 ESV:

1Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3 "Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us."

4He who sits in the heavens laughs]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.[/B] 27For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Yes Virginia, we may put slogans on currency and in popular use like "God bless America" and "In God we trust", and "Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum" - that is "He has favored our undertaking, new order for the ages", but in the end the scripture is crystal clear that ultimately America, every nation, every authority, every rule, every power, is the enemy of God and His just and holy plans for the regeneration of His creation which is as sure as the resurrection of the dead and as sure Christ's own resurrection as collateral proof of first fruits.

[shooraijin]

This has the possibility of shifting into the church and state issue, so let's redirect back to the spirit of the original question, please. Also, Mugendai, your post was edited. Watch your language.

[Puritan]

I think there must be a balance here, AnimeHeretic. For us to interview someone about their life and try to pick our signs to indicate they are truely Christian (a practice unfortunately done by many of the Puritans) would, I believe, be wrong, that type of thing is not for us to do. However, to look at our culture and compare the disconnect between the way people are acting and the way the Bible dictates we act is, in my opinion, a good bulk indicator, and it shows a sick culture. Christians can and do act unchristian, I know I do. However, our culture does not show signs of being Christian as a whole, and to state this is, in my opinion, not a holier-than-thou action, it's an acknowledgement that we must minister to a sick world. If we condescendingly pooh-pooh the religious hoi polloi we are commiting a grievous sin, but if we acknowledge that we, and the rest of the world, are sick and we need to minister to other sick people, we are trying to serve God. However, I think it is imperitive that we do begin with our own sickness, our own inability to please God without his grace. Otherwise we do fall into the trap of believing ourselves holier than others.

[Slater]

I'm not saying that people aren't Christian because of their actions... Every Christian alive today struggles with sin... some more than others. What I am saying is that there are people who label themselves as Christians (worldwide) just because they were raised Christian and that's the easiest answer to give on (say) their SATs.

Others claim to be Christian because they get stuff out of it. I know that my friend and his family is not Christian/Catholic (they told me this), but they claim to be Catholic so that they can recieve an inheiritance when his grandmother dies. I'm pretty sure that's not an isolated case.

Also, keep in mind that there are Cults that call themselves Christian as well. For example, ~75% of the population of the state of Utah claim to be Mormon and virtually all of those will call themselves Christian.

Just as was said in Ark's thread about statistics, take such statistical information on how many Christians there are in the world with a grain of salt... and remember that although our Founding Fathers said that In God they Trust, not all of them were Christian. This country wasn't made to be a Christian country; it was made to be one where any religion and ideology is allowed to thrive.

[Yumie]

But,I think that in many ways the struggle for Christians in most industrialized nations is more a struggle against moral decay than struggle for life and limb, and I think that this struggle is just as dangerous as a struggle for our lives. We must struggle against greed, gluttony, lust, pride, complacency, and other "civilized" and "acceptable" sins. These sins are insidious and difficult to resist because they often seem quite harmless, but they are deadly to the believer. I think "Pilgrim's Progress" (one of my favorite books) illustrates the point quite nicely. Of all the trials Christian must go through, the majority of them are social or psychological: the slough of despond, the moral temptations of Mr. Worldly-Wiseman, the physical pleasures of Vanity Fair, the religious deviancy of By-Ways meadow leading to the giants Dispair and Diffidence. In our lives we must deal with many similar trials, and it is often these which present the largest danger to our Christian walk.

I suppose the point I've been trying and failing to make in all my previous posts is that not only did Christians of the past struggle for their life and limb, they ALSO had every single one of those struggles that you just listed. Guys, we can not pretend that greed, gluttony, lust, pride, and complacency are sins which were invented in the past 30 years! You think that the Christians of the past didn't have those struggles too? And as for the lust issue, homosexuality was absolutely permitted to the degree it was acceptable for grown men to have relationships with little boys. I know a lot of you are probably reading that last sentence and saying, "That's happening now too though! Look at the Catholic church!" But if this is the case, then you missed that I said it was ACCEPTABLE back then. All those things that we think we have such a rough time with were sins that were just as rampant in the past. Please don't think that the only struggles that Christians of the past had was for survival. That would be a gross misunderstanding and would demean their very existence. I would encourage you all to read accounts of some ancient Christians, and understand more of the things they went through. The Bible itself has numerous accounts of these sin issues that it seems that many believe only exist in the present.

[Puritan]

I believe you misunderstand my point, Yumie. I have read accounts of early Christians and read what the Bible has to say on the matter a number of times. I am not trying to pretend that these things are new (I quote a 400+ year old book). My main point is that I don't believe the Christian walk is any easier now than it ever has been, and it has always been difficult. We do have the same sins, and yes the worry about life and limb is non-existant, but I think that it is more difficult to deal with complacency and sloth when society is quiet and life is generally going well. The Church in history seems to have the most problems when life is easy, it seems to be the times of oppression that cause the church to grow. Look at the world today, the church is struggling heavily in the US and Europe without physical oppression, but is growing dramatically in Africa and Asia in the face of often terrible oppression. I am not trying to pretend our issues are new, but the idea that our Christian walk is easier (or more difficult) now is not one I agree with. We are still called to forsake all to follow Christ, and that path is never an easy one.

[Yumie]

I believe you misunderstand my point, Yumie. I have read accounts of early Christians and read what the Bible has to say on the matter a number of times. I am not trying to pretend that these things are new (I quote a 400+ year old book). My main point is that I don't believe the Christian walk is any easier now than it ever has been, and it has always been difficult. We do have the same sins, and yes the worry about life and limb is non-existant, but I think that it is more difficult to deal with complacency and sloth when society is quiet and life is generally going well. The Church in history seems to have the most problems when life is easy, it seems to be the times of oppression that cause the church to grow. Look at the world today, the church is struggling heavily in the US and Europe without physical oppression, but is growing dramatically in Africa and Asia in the face of often terrible oppression. I am not trying to pretend our issues are new, but the idea that our Christian walk is easier (or more difficult) now is not one I agree with. We are still called to forsake all to follow Christ, and that path is never an easy one.

This sypnosis is one I agree with more than any of the others I've heard in this thread. You said, "My main point is that I don't believe the Christian walk is any easier now than it ever has been, and it has always been difficult." I would say, "My main point is that I don't believe the Christian walk is any harder now than it has ever been, and it has always been difficult." But these are almost the same point, if in the end it just means that we always have trials, though they may be incredibly different from those of others. The Bible makes it clear that we as Christians will never live "easy" lives in the sense of worldly comfort.

I believe, as for my own life, that there have been a great number of people that have gone before me whose lives were much more difficult than mine. But I agree that sin is sin, and that there will always be plenty of it to tempt us constantly. The main thing that I took issue with in this thread was the large number of people who said we have it harder than others who lived in ancient times. I in no way intend to imply that life is EASY by what I've said. I'm just saying that God has blessed us with a country that makes it simpler to follow him than it has been in many other places (though perhaps not do other things that are vital to our relationship with him, such as wittness and truly and sincerely be passionate for him.) I understand your point about how the church booms during oppressive times, but here's the reason that I think that happens. I think that during times where the church is oppressed, it becomes more obvious to the world. When Christians are thrown into arenas and fed to lions, people take notice. And when people see us die for what we believe, it leaves an impression, and often leads people to Christ. Opposite that, when our lives are "easier", or as you put it we have more complacency, we fade. We go on with our lives and we don't do things to stand out and make people take notice. Thus, it would seem natural that your point would be right-- as you said, "We do have the same sins, and yes the worry about life and limb is non-existant, but I think that it is more difficult to deal with complacency and sloth when society is quiet and life is generally going well. The Church in history seems to have the most problems when life is easy, it seems to be the times of oppression that cause the church to grow." But I say that this is our fault as Christians (the issue that I think is the one that you say we struggle with the most in our time.) I think that no matter what position in life we are put in, no matter how easy or hard our circumstances are, we should always be shining for Jesus. It shouldn't matter if we're in a lion's den or a public school (all though it seems like many think this is almost the same thing ]is[/I] an obvious problem in that country. So I understand how you say that because of that our lives are hard, because we have to fight the slumber.

If that is what you're saying, I completely understand and agree, and have agreed with that all this time, but didn't know that it was what you meant .

The problem that I had going through this thread, though, was how many posts that I read that made it sound like living in ancient times was a piece of cake. That caught me off guard, and really offended me honestly. I mean, after all that those people went through, how could we say that we have it harder here, that they had it easier, just because we have to fear life becoming so easy that we fall asleep to all that is going on around us? That is incredibly demeaning to all those who suffered for Christ before us. Us falling asleep to the world is a big deal, but all they went through to stay awake to it was too. So mainly, I wanted and still want to make a case for those people who aren't here to speak for themselves. Life as a Christian will always have trials. But please, to those who would be tempted to do so, don't treat the trials of those who lived long ago as trivial matters of less difficulty than the trials which we experience today. Until any of us have really experienced it for ourselves, we have no way of speaking definitively about it.

And Puritan, if I totally misconstrued your point, sorry!

[Puritan]

Wonderful, I think we mean the same thing Yumi, just saying it different ways. No problem about the misunderstanding, it's always hard to try to understand people when they talk in a format such as this. I tend to natter on too long before reaching my point , so my point probably wasn't obvious, but you stated it better than I did above.

We must be ware of thinking the trials of other Christians were easier than ours or harder than ours because this can lead to believing things are far more difficult for us (making us think our sin is acceptable because things are harder for us, or leading to a silly nostalgia for a non-existant perfect past), or that things are too easy in our walk (tending to lead to silly rules and a feeling that early Christians were better than we are now). Our trials today are difficult and different for every Christian, to try and compare them is silly because God knows who we are individually and tests us accordingly.

[Yumie]

Wonderful, I think we mean the same thing Yumi, just saying it different ways. No problem about the misunderstanding, it's always hard to try to understand people when they talk in a format such as this. I tend to natter on too long before reaching my point , so my point probably wasn't obvious, but you stated it better than I did above.

We must be ware of thinking the trials of other Christians were easier than ours or harder than ours because this can lead to believing things are far more difficult for us (making us think our sin is acceptable because things are harder for us, or leading to a silly nostalgia for a non-existant perfect past), or that things are too easy in our walk (tending to lead to silly rules and a feeling that early Christians were better than we are now). Our trials today are difficult and different for every Christian, to try and compare them is silly because God knows who we are individually and tests us accordingly.

Precisely.

I just sometimes have a hard time communicating what I mean because I start writing and get distracted as I go, forgetting points I wanted to make and leaving out vital things that make all the difference. But what you just said sums it up quite nicely.