Ever get immensely discouraged by Christians?

[^Kaji]

It bothers me too. I normally don't associate with other christians at all because of it. The church my brothers go to is one of those big churches. I've gone a couple times but I don't feel comfortable there at all. The people are friendly, but, well overly friendly. I half expect them to bite me as soon as I turn my back. My grandfather was a preacher for years in a small country church that I really liked. They had one mic and one speaker, and it wasn't allways on. This church just dropped $80,000 on a new soundboard, you can hear what's going on from the middle of the parking lot. They have all the latest video equipment too, gotta have that. What really bothered me though was literally everyone getting up and going to the front towards the end. They do that thing where the preacher says something that sounds legit, touches the person on the head, and they fall down and start flopping around. I was looking around for people coming up with baskets of snakes at one point, it was that weird. I also noted that it's allways that same people doing the falling down and flopping thing.... Anyway, I was literally the only one left sitting and the ushers were looking at me like I might whip out a chaingun at any moment. All this after a sermon that consisted allmost entirely of "Give us money or you're going to HELL!". I know the place is 6 kinds of wrong but it has enormous momentum and my brothers are mired neck deep in it, one more than the other. I'm not really sure what to do about it.

More on topic though. How about bringing in some politics? I don't even want to talk about it, it takes too much energy, but really, seperation of church and state. It's there for a reason. So you're elected to a position of power, why does that give the person right to flaunt it at every turn? I get the feeling that God is a bit tired of everyone going to war using him as an excuse. I don't just mean the "war in iraq" or the "war on terrorism" either. We've declared war an nearly everything. War on drugs, war on fat, war on video games, war on janet jackson's breast....makes me want to toss my tv out the window and swear off the silly humans forever. Oh wait! I allready did.

[shooraijin]

How about we don't bring in politics? (See FAQ.)

[Slater]

I agree. Whenever pol-i-tics comes up, (someone lies/bends the truth) || (someone says political party X is not Christian) || (someone's feelings get hurt and people DIE!)

... ok, so maybe people don't die, but it isn't pleasant.

While we shouldn't act like the political world doesn't exist (as a matter of fact, it's a Christian's duty to be active in political affairs as far as he is able to be), CAA simply isn't the place to discuss it.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I've met many non-Christians (would have to live in a bubble not too) but lots have been horrible to me, but there are also some that are wonderful people and are very selfless - would do awesome things for God's Kingdom!

I don't like the attitude of some churches - tithe or go to Hell, don't speak tongues? sorry, you must not be saved! That's just not Biblical and really irks me big time. Other than that most Christians I've met (in real life)are genuine, whereas many I've found online eg. forums (not this one) aren't so Christian. I know everyone has their bad days and whatever but still we need to be an example to others and not be all holier than thou but more grace giving and forgiving of others (while not watering down God's Word).

[^Kaji]

Whoops, sorry.

[FarmGirl]

I was talking to a rather adamant atheist not so long ago (I'll call her Suzy). *Somehow* we got to talking about christians. She told me that once when visiting New York, she had been stopped on the street by a woman whom was passing out flyers for a church. The woman gave her the paper, and Suzy immediatley threw it away. The woman became upset, and told Suzy that she was going to Hell. Suzy, being the calm, collected person she is, yelled back several interesting things concerning the church and that woman's mother, and stormed off.
I now know why it's been so hard to talk to Suzy.
Yes, I believe the church needs a serious wake-up call.

[EireWolf]

....makes me want to toss my tv out the window and swear off the silly humans forever. Oh wait! I allready did.

I understand your frustration, and I have been there myself. But before we decide to write off the human race, let's remember that (A) we're part of it, like it or not, and (B) Jesus didn't write us off.

[yukinon]

It's true that the church often gets caught up on silly details that are not Biblical while ignoring or simply being oblivious to the issues that are truly relevant. I myself have been looking for a new church for about a year now and it's been difficult to find somewhere I feel at home, especially when I'm still formulating my views on what role the traditional church should play in one's life.

and I agree that maybe we shouldn't yet write off all of humanity, but I see nothing wrong with tossing out the tv.

[Cap'n Nick]

"Christians are messed up" is a conclusion I can support. "I am better than them" isn't. "I should scorn them when I find them distasteful" is entirely out of the question.

[Radical Dreamer]

"Christians are messed up" is a conclusion I can support. "I am better than them" isn't. "I should scorn them when I find them distasteful" is entirely out of the question.

Mm-hmm. Very good point.

I understand your frustration, and I have been there myself. But before we decide to write off the human race, let's remember that (A) we're part of it, like it or not, and (B) Jesus didn't write us off.

Another very good point. We should always remember, regardless of whether the person is a Christian or not, to hate the sin and love the person who sins. If we can't get through a single day without sinning, then we definitely shouldn't be saying anything about another sinner. That's hypocrisy in and of itself.

[ShiroiHikari]

"Christians are messed up" is a conclusion I can support. "I am better than them" isn't. "I should scorn them when I find them distasteful" is entirely out of the question.

I agree, sir. This is something I should work on myself. I'm too quick to judge other Christians...they're humans just like me and everybody else.

[Debitt]

"Christians are messed up" is a conclusion I can support. "I am better than them" isn't. "I should scorn them when I find them distasteful" is entirely out of the question.

And Nick goes for the win!

It's something I think we all have to work on in this respect - it's difficult to lend your respect to someone who tells you "you're going to hell" for watching anime or listening to secular music. ^-^ It's hard, but it also gives you the chance to share a part of Christianity that a lot of people seem to forget: love.

[EireWolf]

and I agree that maybe we shouldn't yet write off all of humanity, but I see nothing wrong with tossing out the tv.

I wholeheartedly agree. WAIT!!! That was my COMPUTER!!!!

[Syreth]

True, there are a lot of Christians out there who do silly things, but I think we would do well to remember who has really been a good example. Most of the people over age 60 at my church are the sweetest and most loving people I have ever met. In fact, I'm sure it was God working in their hearts through prayer that brought me out of my backslidden state a few years ago. I've come to the conclusion that I want to grow up to be a sweet old man (whatever that has to do with the original topic).

[Puritan]

Kaji, I can sympathise with your disgust with your brothers' church. My family went to a great church in the last place we lived about a decade back, but my Father was prevented from teching Sunday School for a while because of some, honestly really silly, church ideas about what makes a true Christian. Fortunately the pastor realized this, and my Dad was able to teach. Good churches can get caught up in ideas or ways of doing things which can lead them astray, it's soemthing to be cautious about.

I agree with the other comments emphasising Christain charity and etiquite to people like this as well as a realtization that we are really no better than they are (I know I prejudge people at times). However, it is extremely important to pray about this stuff, and to try to (politely and kindly) stop this type of thing where we can. We as the Church (aka. all believers) need to be careful that we don't get so caught up in our cultural or emotional experiences that we can't see God, and we need to strive to keep our own lives pure of unchristain prejudice and pride (which seems to cause most of these problems).

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

...And learning to forgive far more. That helps to break down enormous barriers and allow for proper healing.

[yukinon]

We could certainly do with a few more sweet old men, Syreth. Of course, I say we could do with a few more sweet young men too, but hey...;P

[Syreth]

[quote="yukinon"]We could certainly do with a few more sweet old men, Syreth. Of course, I say we could do with a few more sweet young men too, but hey...]
I would agree 100%. God knows this one needs some work, but I'm trying.

[ducheval]

Most disappointing to me are the activists out there. It seems so many christians are concerned with actively fighting against values which they despise rather than working for values that they cherish. Only two months ago we had a sizable anti-homosexual rally in my town. Churches drove in from all over to harass people. It really breaks my heart, the complete lack of compassion.

De-politicizing christianity would make a huge difference. I really like the no-politics clause here, because that's exactly my major beef with christianity these days, the continuous efforts of the extremists to wave their bibles to push for things that I don't think are christian values at ALL. It simply doesn't seem to be possible for me to be for full and equal rights for homosexuals and christian at the same time =/

To me such a thing is the most christian of goals, equality for all people. Peace, and the freedom to love as we would. I continually keep in mind that these people are on tv because they're extremist. The common christian isn't newsworthy, ne? Only the god-hates-fags terri-isn't-a-vegetable ones.....

Not so long ago, there was a particular uprising in a western country where the slogan "If God were to exist, it would be necessary to abolish him" was prominently used. Sometimes I can sympathize with this view, that people's firm belief in the divine right of their cause interferes and blinds them to the real message. Might it the world be better off if we stopped focusing on God and focused on the message and only the message instead?

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Stop focusing on God and only focus on the message instead? Not all that wise, that's spiritual suicide! God is the one to be worshiped, the Message is for us to go out and do. The Message is our mission and ministry and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is a Creator, Saviour and Guide.

I've been reading Philip Yancey's: What's So Amazing About Grace book and it is very good, very challenging at times, very truthful and very eye-opening. Instead of trying all this legalising bull - can't listen to rock music, must wear presentable clothes in church, young single mums -ugh, homosexuals -ugh and all that we should respond with a spirit of grace. To not focus wholy on the morality, but more on the people and how they need Jesus. It sure is hard. But I think its the sort of thing Jesus is more concerned with and its the sort of thing that people are attracted too hearing - not fire and brimstone (that get that enough already) but about God's grace, his unconditional love for us. I'm by no means saying water down the Bible to appeal to everyone (some won't come either way) but that we should reflect love not hate. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that.

Hope this helps a little.

[ducheval]

see, I don't like even the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' view. Why hate at all? Christianity is so often hate-filled, even with this more compassionate view.

The hate-the-sin view is just as often used to justify homosexual oppression as the hate-the-sinner view, and that's really sad. And to refer to the original poster, VERY disappointing to me.

[EireWolf]

I really like the no-politics clause here...

So do we... but you're on the verge of violating it with this discussion, methinks. That door swingeth both ways.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Not true. It means to not agree with the sin the person is doing but love them as a person for who they are (a creation of God, loved by him).
Jesus hates sin, but loves us. He isn't only a meek lamb who loves and laughs and forgives. He is also a great warrior, a king and in the end he will crush evil. There are two sides to him, to only reflect on one or the other is to water down God's Word.
In that sense I don't agree with homosexuality, but I see homosexuals as people (sinners) just like me and you who need God's love and forgiveness and to know Him.

[ducheval]

I don't know, I really can't reconcile any kind of pro-hate platform with christianity, be the hate directed towards the sin or the sinner.

I'll think on it.

[FadedOne]

I don't know, I really can't reconcile any kind of pro-hate platform with christianity, be the hate directed towards the sin or the sinner.

I'll think on it.

hm...i understand to some extent where you're coming from i think. but when we say 'hate the sin' we're not even say...'harass the sinner to death to make them stop sinning' . And like you said, sometimes Christians use 'hate the sin' to annoy the crap out of their fellow man and make them feel like dirt. (it's just true guys..i've seen it. i've felt it).

but ducheval, the true meaning of 'hate the sin' is pretty straight-forward. For example, rape is a horrendous thing right? i have NO problem despising that sin...and i'd actually have to call on Jesus for help to not hate the perpetrator, but yea. sin really isn't a hard thing to hate when you think about it (at least others' sins). the problem is that some Christians confuse the sin and sinner no matter how much they use that saying as a cop-out


on another note...dang, 6 pages. i can't believe my thread went that far. good reading in here though. and yes, i've since calmed down. I still hurt every time i see a backstabbing witch/jerk of a Chrstian, but then again..i can be one. :/ Has anyone quoted Ghandi yet with his 'be the change you wish to see'? probably. and man, that's so hard to live. :/ *trying*

[Bobtheduck]

Hmm... The idea that Christians are messed up is stated semi-plainly in the Bible... I say semi because it was still stated in analogy, but there is something to the effect of "wolves with sheep" and "weeds and crops" and "chaff and wheat" There are several refferences to their being people in the group who are not really followers of Jesus. The only human separation to take place because of that is to be for blatant sing IE the things outlined in revelation. Lying, Stealing, violence, dischord, sexual sin, etc... Everything else is to be treated with the understanding that it is God who is the Final Judge, not us. People are low down, and sometimes Christians are too. Then there are the times where they simply have a lack of understanding. Either way, we're supposed to give people grace... Tell them what the Bible says about things, but don't target them for "cleaning out" or sit back and complain about them or try to raise groups to fight them. Those sort of groups are anti-biblical (except in the case of those sins mentioned in the last Chapter of Revelations) So, for the more grey areas and areas where there is simply growth needed (even such as, I think, sins listed there in revelations where people are repentant but struggling) we should back off and not become their judges. Love covers a multitude of sins. Now I shall get off my soapbox, and try to figure out how in the heck I can do what I just said (because I don't think I am...)

As for hating sin, that is actually commanded by the Bible... The idea that perfect love gives no room for hate is not a Christian Idea... "Love" and "Hate" are not opposites (that would be "like" and "hate"), they are only considered that in English grammatical framework... Hatred for sin is part of Love... It means we want to see an end brought to the destructive things in someone's life.

[ducheval]

Gandhi so amazingly quoatable

"Hate the sin and not the sinner is a precept which though easy enough to
understand is rarely practiced, and that is why the poison of hatred
spreads in the world." - Gandhi, of course

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

ducheval, my post on the previous page settles it a bit. But I guess you didn't bother reading it. We won't dumb down the Bible so as not offend people, take it as it is. It's God's Word, the Truth and changing it just because the 'times have changed' is just ridiculous.

[ducheval]

I read your post and responded rather directly to the portion I thought was most morally lacking: the hate the sin view o.O

As for changing it because the times have changed, well, that's what happens continuously anyway. It's inevitable, it's real, it's happening, right now. So we might as well accept that and interpret on the side of compassion.

To say it's God's word is a touch inaccurate ne? Every passage in the bible goes through a person who receives it from God, then writes it down, which is then continually translated. Most christians have long accepted a non-literal interpreted reading of MANY portions of the bible. That's quite mainstream -_-

[FadedOne]

I read your post and responded rather directly to the portion I thought was most morally lacking: the hate the sin view o.O

As for changing it because the times have changed, well, that's what happens continuously anyway. It's inevitable, it's real, it's happening, right now. So we might as well accept that and interpret on the side of compassion.

To say it's God's word is a touch inaccurate ne? Every passage in the bible goes through a person who receives it from God, then writes it down, which is then continually translated. Most christians have long accepted a non-literal interpreted reading of MANY portions of the bible. That's quite mainstream -_-

aaah..dont use that word 'most'. I've been studying non-literal Bible interpretations lately, so they really bug me. well rather, i'm just starting to study such things, so i wouldn't call myself knowledgeable. but yea....this is a huge can of worms, so i'm just going to cringe at the words 'non-literal', 'many', and 'mainstream' *CRINGE* and wander off. ^^;; I have a ton of homework. :/