What would happen if you went back in time and killed your grandfather?

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Postby SnoringFrog » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:36 pm

To locate or define something you need to know the length, whith, hieght, and time at which it is located. So we can think of your house ten years ago and your house now not as the same place, but actaully two different places. So what you need to do to time travel is learn how to get to these different places.


So basically, we're at point A, and your house ten years ago could be considered point B, but we just have to locate the AB connecting point. Interesting.

Another interesting theory I have heard is that everything we see is just a"shadow" of a higher dimensional world.
It's a rather strong theory, actually. Extra spacial dimensions are regularly studied. Though it's not much of a shadow, per se, we can only observe three.


So, according to this, there are more dimensions than the three we can see and then time, but we are unalbe to observe them or their effects? What else could they be?
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Postby Ratrace » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:57 am

Time is dimension no. 4, and the rest could be anything. Thats sort of the point, I think. Gravity is one of there effects(apparently), but as Im not an astrophysisist I cant realy explane that theary.
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Postby Sifu_Calanor » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:05 am

i don't know if someone said this or not, but if that were possible, acording to chrono trigger/cross and dbz, you would only change things in that timeline. which means you should be okay, in your timeline, but the you from the timeline in which you killed your grandfather would never happen.
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Postby Supersith » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:18 pm

What is antigravity and does this sound like I'm pulling it straight out of a science fiction flick?! Because I'm not. It's real.


My friend who I think is literally a genius told me that gravity cannot be reversed because its spin is an integer.

i don't know if someone said this or not, but if that were possible, acording to chrono trigger/cross and dbz, you would only change things in that timeline. which means you should be okay, in your timeline, but the you from the timeline in which you killed your grandfather would never happen.


Of course anime always has the answer! I see clearly now.
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Postby Heart of Sword » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:19 pm

Answering the topic of the thread:

I just wouldn't exist. Why? Because I'd be get the death penalty for murder. And plus, with no grandfather, there would be no me in the first place. ^^;;;
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Postby mitsuki lover » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:06 am

Why is it that when it comes to time trave this seems to be #1 favorite What If
situation.I mean what if you could actually change history would you do it?What if you could,for example,go back to Austria in say 1900 and befriend Adolf Hitler and so alter the course of history by diverting him from the path he took?Or what if you could go back to Ford's Theater and stop John Wilkes Booth from shooting Lincoln or back to the weeks before Appomatox and give General Lee the needed information to destroy Grant's army?
Does are the things that really make time travel interesting to me.
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Postby The Coldwood » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:29 am

Actually, my biological grandfather died of cancer after my mom was born.
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Postby SnoringFrog » Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:43 pm

Why is it that when it comes to time trave this seems to be #1 favorite What If
situation.I mean what if you could actually change history would you do it?What if you could,for example,go back to Austria in say 1900 and befriend Adolf Hitler and so alter the course of history by diverting him from the path he took?Or what if you could go back to Ford's Theater and stop John Wilkes Booth from shooting Lincoln or back to the weeks before Appomatox and give General Lee the needed information to destroy Grant's army?
Does are the things that really make time travel interesting to me.


Because this one offers more paradoxes that could come about as a result of it, while stopping Booth or Hitler could have a huge effect on world history, it's not as sure-fire of a chance of messing up your exact past and thereby creating something where you shouldn't exist.
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Postby Technomancer » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:45 pm

SnoringFrog wrote:So basically, we're at point A, and your house ten years ago could be considered point B, but we just have to locate the AB connecting point. Interesting.


Which would actually be fairly difficult. The earth rotates about its axis, and also revolves about the sun. The solar system itself is revolves around the galactic core, and the galaxy itself is moving. Unless our putative time traveller was very precise in his measurements, he would most likely find himself in the vacuum of space.


So, according to this, there are more dimensions than the three we can see and then time, but we are unalbe to observe them or their effects? What else could they be?


The idea is that while they are physical, they're wrapped up in a very special way. To use Brian Greene's analogy, imagine a telephone cable. Seeing it from far away, we essentially see a one dimensional object posessing only length. If we were to have a closer perspective, we would see the other dimensions wrapped around the larger, more visible one. In terms of physics, if these dimensions exist they only do so at a very small scale which we are currently unable to probe. At least that's the string theory interpretation of things.
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Postby SnoringFrog » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:12 pm

The idea is that while they are physical, they're wrapped up in a very special way. To use Brian Greene's analogy, imagine a telephone cable. Seeing it from far away, we essentially see a one dimensional object posessing only length. If we were to have a closer perspective, we would see the other dimensions wrapped around the larger, more visible one. In terms of physics, if these dimensions exist they only do so at a very small scale which we are currently unable to probe. At least that's the string theory interpretation of things.


Okay then, so these other dimensions are simply too minute for us to measure at this time, if they do indeed exist?
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Postby TurkishMonky » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:31 am

here's what i came up with after a bit of study:
As the speed of a particle approaches the speed of light, the particle’s time slows down to approach timelessness, and as the particle increases speed beyond that, the time of the particle travels in reverse, but the theory is it is a parallel timeframe or an unchangeable timeframe. However, the downside to this is that as the particle approaches the speed of light, the particle also approaches a mass of infinity, (I believe this is from the acceleration, but not sure) which requires an infinite amount of energy. So, fortunately, you can’t go kill your grandfather….
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Postby Technomancer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:42 am

SnoringFrog wrote:Okay then, so these other dimensions are simply too minute for us to measure at this time, if they do indeed exist?


And that's really the problem right now. We simply don't have the equipment to test string theory right now. In a few years though, a major European supercollider is scheduled to become operational and it might generate the needed energies to probe down to this scale.
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Postby yukinon » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:13 pm

supercollider?
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Postby Nate » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:18 pm

yukinon wrote:supercollider?

Nah, I don't even know her.

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Postby TurkishMonky » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:42 pm

the supercollider accelerates particles really fast and smashes them together.
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Postby SnoringFrog » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:55 am

Sounds interesting, I'll have to keep an ear out for it.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:38 pm

Of course to answer the original question re time travel in the positive manner would also be to positively state the existance of one or more parallel worlds. :grin:
You see the only possible way of time travelling to exist is if the universe that we know to exist is in reality part of an multiverse that consists of an infinite variety of parallel worlds.
The possibility exists that in at least one of these parallel worlds you did kill your grandfather,however that doesn't effect the outcome of your life or parallel lives that exist in other parallel worlds.
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Postby KojiroMusashi » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:50 am

By page five of this post I was developing a headache, and I still have nearly two hours at work, so I skipped the rest (and the headache) in favour of simply stating my opinion on the matter, and leaving it at that.


I've done a bit of thinking about this type of scenario ever since I first watched Back to the Future, and I've come to the conclusion that if such an event were allowed by God to transpire, the outcome would be as follows:


The instant your Grandfather died (provided simply interacting with the surroundings did not alter time enough to negate your existence already) you would simply cease to be. The circumstances required for you to have ever existed have been irreparably damaged, and therefore you could not exist. You would not continue living in a past that prevents you from ever existing, and the loop that some speak of cannot happen.

As for your other parent, his/her life would go on, and the universe would not suffer any ill. Their children would be different people entirely from you and your siblings, and you would not be a "half-you" (as was suggested in another post), you just would not exist. It would be as though all decendants from your grandfather on down that line of the family tree had never been. Put quite simply, the universe and everything in it would be modified by the changed events, but would have no knowledge that the alteration ever happened.


Hope I didn't simplify this over-complicated thread too much. It just isn't all that complex. Now, if your being in the past changed the outcome of said past immediately (breathing in molecules, killing a butterfly, etc), there might be room for a loop of some sort, provided your existance in the consequential future was not compromised in any way by the chain reaction. Then you could be stuck in a loop whereby your geneology is not changed, but you are unable to return to the future as you had left it, since the most miniscule of changes in the past had occured, changing the future slightly.

What those changes would include would be unpredictable, but once the change in the past had happened, you would have no knowledge that the future you came from was ever any different, as your memories would be immediately altered to reflect the continuation of events you yourself started in the past.


In short, it wouldn't be a Back to the Future II scenario, where a change in the past occurs, yet the people from the future still remember the future as if the change never occured. As existance would immediately be negated by killing one's own grandfather, memories would also be altered or negated by the change in past events.

Now the real mind-blowing question: Since God is omniscient, He would still remember you even though the circumstances causing you to be were changed. Following this same logic, when you negate yourself, would you go to Heaven? I guess what that boils down to is Theology, whether the soul of a person is created at conception or if it is created at all. I don't want to even get on that topic, so please don't post to it! :sweat:
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Postby Pent » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:24 pm

Would the universe allow you to disapear into nothingness? No. The laws of everything say you can't disapear to no where.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:56 am

Again it depends on if we are dealing with a multiverse or single universe.
I believe in a single universe all that would happen would be all our memories would be erased of our dead grandfather and be reset with ones of the new grandfather.In short if we traveled back and killed our grandfather we would never even remember ever having done it since history and all of our memories of the past would have been reset.This is true of any historical event.If we could go back and change history then our memories of the 'correct history' would be reset and so we would have no idea of the previous time line or the events in them. :cool:
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Postby KojiroMusashi » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:59 am

The laws of everything don't say anything about whether or not matter can simply cease to be. The sum of our knowledge is, concerning such matters as hypothetical time travel and the implications that such activity would have, severely limited at best. I don't believe it's a fair statement to say that, Pent. And you wouldn't just disappear into nowhere. You would cease to be, since the DNA that created you cannot exist. In other words, the universe would rewrite itself, as much as concerned your family tree, and it would be as though your father or mother were never born, which in turn would ensure you were not born. Mitsuki Lover, this is what you were suggesting, no?


On that note as well, the fact that we can't imagine something happening does not mean it can't happen. This is the trap of human thought; we have an unspoken assumption that our knowledge is complete. We would never say so, of course, but our actions and words betray this. To say anything is impossible is really only highlighting our own ignorance. And as for single versus multi-verse, again it is all purely speculative. Quantum physics can't honestly say anything conclusive about this debate, so this entire thread is simply an "IMO" thread.


And my opinion is that a person is the sum of their soul, their DNA, and their experiences. Once two of the three are changed, I don't think the soul could just be stuffed into another body and relive life. And it WOULD be another body, since your DNA would be fundamentally changed.

. . .


A question nobody has asked (at least, from the posts I read) is whether the grandfather is killed before you and your fatheror mother are born, or after? If it were after, all of this would have been avoided :P
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Postby mitsuki lover » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:54 pm

It hasn't been specified if this is your paternal or maternal grandfather I might add.However most of the posts seem to imply the paternal grandfather.I guess if you knock off your maternal grandfather it wouldn't make as much of a difference.
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Postby Pent » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:07 am

Basic law: Matter can not be created or destroyed. Kind of what I was thinking about. But if you seriously think of this from a christian perspective do you think God would allow you and one of your parents to "cease to be"? And one other thing if you where never born how did you go back in time to kill your grandpa? So you never existed once you kill him? Then how did some one who never exist kill him? How is the universe going to explain his death? I think that this situation and other situations that we encounter in everyday life points to a multiverse. Not really a "multiverse" but an "infiniteverse". If you really start to think about it this does not neccisarliy disagree with christianity as much as a universe does. Because it's not like the universe wont let us time travel. I just think God will come back before we do. So if we can time travel (which is possible just not yet acheviable) how can, from a christians view point, there only be one universe?

So anyway my main pont is would God allow you to "cease to be"? I can see the universe as uncaring as it is letting you "cease to be". But God? And with all the other problems that arise from a christian perspective of a multiverse, I am starting to think that it is in fact a universe, but you guys are a little off on what would happen.
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Postby mitsuki lover » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:37 am

Actually in order to go back in time to kill your grandfather you would have to be born so that you could go back in time to kill your grandfather in the first place.This really creates a Mobius Strip Event where cause and effect keep on looping back on each other so that there is really no beginning or no ending of events.
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Postby Pent » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:28 pm

And that's exactly why I'm saying you wouldn't disapear!
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Postby mitsuki lover » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:26 pm

It also results in a conundrum.That is how can you kill your grandfather if you have to be born first to go back in time to kill him in the first place?
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Postby Bobtheduck » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:43 pm

Sorry for the gravedig, but I think I have something to say about time travel

I have a take on time travel for my book that I've never seen... So, that likely means there've been 100 books about it, heh... It's not the kind seen in terminator (with multiple timelines, the kind pushed by John Titor, the supposed time traveler) It's not the kind seen in... Um... Bill and Ted's excelent adventure (if you went back in time, it allready happened, so you can't change time, you'll just do what happened)

Actually, it has been in a story I've seen, sorta... It's sorta like what happens in Chrono Cross... There is only one timeline, but there are temporary deviations... Those deviations will right themselves and be annihilated and only one timeline (the real one) can exist... So, someone on the one timeline goes back in time, changes history, he doesn't disappear or anything because in the real timeline, history WASN'T changed, and he, a product of the real timeline, can't stay in the deviation for long... This isn't so much science fiction as fantasy to allow for a plot device, but that's my idea... Chrono Cross was the only thing I've seen that came close to it... I'm sure, though, there must be many others...
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Postby QtheQreater » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:15 pm

1) Hm, well, God is not a god of contradiction, so if you go back in time and kill your grandfather, and can no longer exist to do that...well, it's a contradiction. God doesn't work like that.

2) In logic, a contradiction is an impossibility, as in, a thing cannot be true and untrue at the same time. We live in a logical universe(it operates without exception to logical rules). As a logical universe, things here cannot be true and untrue at the same time. Therefore, the whole go-back-in-time-and-kill-your-grandfather contradiction cannot occur in our universe. By the way, this is the reason I don't believe timetravel is possible. You cannot do it without creating some sort of contradiction, like existing before coming into existence(a necessary logical step).

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Postby Technomancer » Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:26 am

QtheQreater wrote:2) In logic, a contradiction is an impossibility, as in, a thing cannot be true and untrue at the same time. We live in a logical universe(it operates without exception to logical rules). As a logical universe, things here cannot be true and untrue at the same time.


The thing is, those rules you speak of have little requirement to conform to our common-sense notions. Quantum mechanics for example, has very little to do with the kinds of ideas that are normally useful in our macroscopic universe.
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Postby RubyJewelStone » Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:00 pm

*winging it since she's too lazy to read all that...>.<*

What's to say you make it back in time safely? Surely all that matter appearing/disappearing spontaneously at once must have some sort of effect (which may be violent).
And what if something was already occupying the space you were in? What happens to that or you? Two objects cannot occupy the same space at once.

Anyways, if you did happen to make it back in time I think that the possibility of you killing your grandfather is nil, since if you killed him you would not exist (assuming your parents aren't there yet).
Of course this is with the assumption that time is in a continuous and connective flow.

If it was actually a variety of different events in every instance, somewhat like frames on a film, then your future may be safe.

IMO, of course.
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