IT jobs

[Mr. Rogers]

I have a question about certification vs. degrees. I am currently in school for a BA in Web Design/Multimedia. But, as I've been going through the curriculum more and more, I really don't think that what I am learning is worth loan payments until I am nearly 40 years old. With a CIW Master Designer certification, I could learn all the same stuff for only a couple thousand dollars. I was talking to my friend about it, and he says the job will always go to the guy with the degree. I talked to another guy about it, and he got a job at ESPN with the same certification I would be getting. I could always find a job in web design that doesn't require a degree. My main concern is, I don't want to get into a lot of debt, because in the near future I want to go to Bible school, language school and travel to Japan, and I think that might be a little hard with tons of debt. Any advice from anyone in the IT field?

[shooraijin]

Unless you're interested in academic computing, I think you'd find most programmer/analyst positions dull and arduous, even with reasonable pay. There's also little job security. As far as academic computing, unless you get lucky (*ahem* the lucky person I'm talking about can speak up if he likes), you have good job security and even some nice latitude, but the pay sucks. That's for programmer/analyst positions, and those need some sort of degree or programming experience (unless you do what I did, and fell into a position at the recommendation of the person who left it -- I stayed there for two years full time, and consulted for four years after; however, this was in an academic environment and they were desperate for someone to fill the slot at the pay rate they could afford).

Web design is even less of a secure existence. Be blunt with yourself -- web designers, even ones with some sort of cert, are a dime a dozen and it's an employer's market, not an applicant's. You'd probably find work projects only on a freelance basis, and then few and far between. Of the people like your friend who got into ESPN, there are probably a hundred who are working at McDonald's during the day and doing freelance jobs in their offhours. You might do better in the web design field with an art or communications degree (even an AA at a community college might be satisfactory), and this would at least make you attractive to any sort of new media company -- not just web design.

My advice is not to bank on this. But that's just my opinion (note, however, that I no longer work in IT ).

[Mr. Rogers]

so web design alltogether isn't the best/most secure field to get into?

[shooraijin]

*Pure* web design, I wouldn't think so. It has been my impression that the field is getting quite saturated.

That's why diversifying a bit may be more to your advantage, and even an AA in an art or design field would do wonders at a minimal cost at, say, a community college or some such. Many of these have web design as part of their curricula.

[Mithrandir]

I have the same saturation experience as shooby. I would put my money behind an AA at a CC as well. The real money in the computer field isn't in web stuff. It's too difficult to stay current, so you'll be doing the McD's and freelance stuff. The stuff you really need to go to a four year college/uni for is the back-end, security or highly detailed stuff. Security being the fastest growing field right now. That's my experience, though - YMMV.

[MyrrhLynn]

Ok I'll give my $0.02 since I was just looking for a web type job this past summer.

Although a degree is nice after you get a few years experience no one will be all that interested in exactly what kind of degree it was. All the ads I saw are like "degree preferred, 1-"something" years expeience required in the following:..."

They all like experience way more, especially the advanced positions. If you still want to do web design then I would say learn the more advanced web languages. If you can be like "oh yeah I know .Net, ASP, PHP, and I can make graphics in Photoshop" it will give you a definte edge over all the art type majors who can't read PHP (or whatever) to save their lives, and an edge over all the people who are in "web design" with a computer type degree like the ones at my school who I would be amazed if they could even open a new project at the right size in Photoshop.

Still though the web market is getting saturated, and good luck finding a "fun" job that wouldn't be really boring. If you still really really want to do web design then maybe look into marketing actually, since lots of companies their web design team is part of the marketing department. But still those positions don't become available all that much. You'd be better off focusing on security like Mithrandir said or some of the back end web language stuff.

Oh and shooraijin I'm not sure what you are talking about. I have what I would call a "academic computing" type job, and the pay totally kicks butt. Maybe I'm one of the lucky people though.

[shooraijin]

I know someone else who is one of the lucky people, but he/she can reveal him/herself if they like.

Myself, when I was an academic schlub, I made about $30K+bennies a year before I left, which is pathetic in the scheme of pay grades for analyst work -- I make $42K+bennies now as a third-year resident, plus $60-$75/h for moonlighting (of which I typically do somewhere between 6 and 10 hours a week, on the average), and I stand to make around $140K+bennies/retirement next year when I accept an attending position.

On the other hand, it was a job that emerged when I most needed it, they were willing to train because they couldn't pay much, and I had a lot of latitude to do my project programming in the way I wanted to (which I wouldn't get in the commercial world). When I came back as a consultant, I had even greater leeway -- they said, "make us something that does this" and I had minimal constraints on my choice of tools, as long as it worked with their school IS and middleware. It was still not market wage, but it was still more money than most of my peers made as students (I consulted in medical school), and it was work that was always available. So I'm very grateful to that particular university for getting me started, since it was a professor there who wrote my ticket to medical school in the first place. I still have a lot of contacts there, and I am still very glad I took the position.

[MyrrhLynn]

Ahh my bad, I read what you were talking about earlier incorrectly. So I guess I don't really have an academic type of job after all although I did do a little on the side when I was still in school, now I'm just a normal employee of a company.

Something else I remembered taht I thought I should mention, some companies now have you take programming tests during the hire process. So really they are more interested in what you know rather then what it says on your diploma. My company was pretty picky about grades too, but I don't think most are.

[Technomancer]

I have a question about certification vs. degrees. I am currently in school for a BA in Web Design/Multimedia. But, as I've been going through the curriculum more and more, I really don't think that what I am learning is worth loan payments until I am nearly 40 years old.

Personally, I don't think a BA in web design is worth a degree either (it wouldn't be a degree program where I'm from either). Like other people have told you web design's not really secure, nor is well paying. Unless you're involved with more serious things (graphic design, databases, e-commerece, etc), you probably aren't going to go to far with this. If you want to work in IT or programming, a serious CompSci degree would be preferable, or at least a college diploma program that really gets you involved with the programming/maintence side of things. If you want to do something more artistic, pursue graphic design and pick up the technical stuff on the side.

[Da Rabid Duckie]

Of the people like your friend who got into ESPN, there are probably a hundred who are working at McDonald's during the day and doing freelance jobs in their offhours.

I think that point needs to be singled out, because it's right on the mark. I have friends that live in Dallas that at one time have stood on the freeway with a sign listing their tech certifications and asking for work, and it took them quite a while to be able to find a job.

I myself used to be a tech, and I was one of the most well-known in the area. Of course, that should tell you how small the area was... and especially considering that there was very little work here, despite the fact that I got 70% of the freelance contracts it still was less than $14,000 a year.

Of course, your mileage may vary, but I'd diversify yourself to the point where at least one skill you have is in demand somewhere.

[Mr. Rogers]

thanks for the advice. i could switch to computer science maybe and get into the more hardcore stuff (databases, etc), or maybe i could go with my other plan and get into journalism/photojournalism (which i also know nothing about that job field XD). hmmmm....

[Slater]

hey, good plans!

[Mr. Rogers]

*tries to solve*

[Kaligraphic]

01.(y^2-x).(y^2-10^2)x10
x=24, y=30

01.876.8000

Now the question is, "where do you dial that number?"

MyrrhLynn, where do you work that's "like but not academic computing"?

I went tech, myself. I now know the rootest root password in IT at my company. I could mess with the AD schema if I wanted to.

I'm also in wheel with the root passwd on the linux boxes.

[Mithrandir]

I'd wager on a phone but it's entirely possible I'm mistaken on that.

[Kaligraphic]

I'd wager on a phone but it's entirely possible I'm mistaken on that.

You could, if you wanted to be ordinary.

I meant, in what country will that resolve to the correct line?

Another question would be, "what is the other theoretically valid interpretation of the problem?"

[Tringard]

appears to be Mexico

[Mr. Rogers]

What should I expect if I switch to a computer science degree? That way, I could get into the deeper side of web development with application development, databases, programming, etc.

[Kaligraphic]

What should I expect if I switch to a computer science degree?

Hordes of adoring female fans, employers showering you with money, and a position of power and influence.

Well, at least you can expect it, but whether it'll deliver...

[Technomancer]

What should I expect if I switch to a computer science degree? That way, I could get into the deeper side of web development with application development, databases, programming, etc.

It will depend on the school, but you should certainly expect more math as well as more on the theoretical aspects of what you're doing. See the following links for some generic program details:

http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/cas/undergraduate/cs_courses.php
http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/cas/undergraduate/se_courses.php
http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/cas/gamer/courses.htm

The courses shown are, with some variation, what you can expect from a proper CS degree. They don't show the math requirements though, but you'll need to know at leas basic calculus and linear algebra as well as some discrete mathmematics and statistics. You might also end up taking some material on optimization.

[Mithrandir]

I had to fail, I mean take, Multivariable calculus with my CS degree. If you want to go into management, you can go with CIS instead. A lot less math, but that's an entirely different ball of wax. You wouldn't really be doing much programming if you did that.

[LorentzForce]

I got my current job without even showing my resume.

Proper connections in industry > Any degree or certification whatsoever

My suggestion is to go to those unis and colleges not so much for their certificates and whatnot, but to meet other people in the industry. Very often good unis and colleges attract business people, for various things. Don't be afraid, go up to them and shake their hands, greet them, and leave a pretty good image. Talk to lecturers, communicate. Find people who are already working. Work hard at your study. Next thing you know any one of them could be finding you in middle of your coffee break with a job for you.

[Kaligraphic]

I got my current job without even showing my resume.

As did I, interestingly enough. No resume, no interview - in fact, they called me.

Proper connections in industry > Any degree or certification whatsoever

Quoted for truth. A familiar name will usually get preference over a stranger. (and there's always the "I know a guy who I can call...")

[Mithrandir]

Quoted for truth. A familiar name will usually get preference over a stranger. (and there's always the "I know a guy who I can call...")

Uh huh. And this is true for EVERYONE ELSE too. Please be aware that such jobs are the *exception* not the rule. My first job was that kind. After that, I had to do a lot of pavement pounding. For that, you need a piece of paper that says you have the discipline to do your job. THAT's what the degree means. Also, if you ever want to go up the corp ladder, a piece of paper is a must.

[Technomancer]

Just for the curious: the IEEE Dream Jobs article that recently appeared in IEEE Spectrum.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/feb06/2815

[MyrrhLynn]

MyrrhLynn, where do you work that's "like but not academic computing"?

I said that? *is too lazy to go back and look*

I work for a company that makes healthcare software. Technically my role is tech support but I have to do quite a bit of coding as well.

[shooraijin]

You are, of course, too cool. How'd you land that one?

[MyrrhLynn]

You are, of course, too cool. How'd you land that one?

Um... I applied, took the test they have and they hired me? Lol, well my roommate from college works there as well so I think that fact helped to push me through the interview process faster. I still had to pass the test though to get hired.