What would happen if you went back in time and killed your grandfather?

[Supersith]

QUOTE
No you remain the universes plothole, the other exist as an alternate you, one that exist but is yet isn't you.



So then you would exist only as an anomaly, and the alternate you that was born would grow up into the person I described, with the different genes?


QUOTE
Ultimately the same result your fathers side beign different and your mothers side being the same.



SO this would then be the same as what I described above?

sorry misunderstanding of the question.

Anyway i have yet to answer which universe you would go to and way, Milllions of universes are created at one instance, as if splitting from that one, and the one created from the initial decision you go to. You go there because it was created a fraction of the smallest measurement of time imaginable, so small only God can comphrend its smallness before the others.

If you both continued to exist, assuming you convined your other self not to kill your granfather, what would happen then? How would you both have a history, since both of your pasts could not be carried out in their original way?

The you's are from two different universes. They stay the same because in their universes what happened to them happened to them. Its hard to explain, Well you see only one of them is a plot hole in this situation, the one who went through with the killing is the plot-hole, the one who was stopped, and/or killed, is just stranded because and seperated from his universe causing him to become an anomally of that universe because technichally you shouldn't exist yet.

First, how would you go back and stop yourself? Is this because of the gene change that we covered before?

No, the person doing the stopping is the plot-hole remaining the same you stop yourself because you realize it shouldn't be done, and the person you stop is from an alternate universe where you went back to kill your grandfather but some slight variance seperates your killing from his which is why it is in an alternate universe.

And the merging into one being-- this one seems the least logical to me, but if it did indeed happen, what memories would you have? Would you have two sets of memories? And who would your parents/grandparents be? To me, the first of these sounds most likely, but none of them seem too likely at all.

Where did you get this from?

[Supersith]

I think it be more interesting if you went back in time and became your own ancestor.

futurama my friend, futurama.

[SnoringFrog]

Where did you get this from?

Sorry, that was my own idea, but by the time I got that far in my post I kinda forgot that it was my idea and not yours.

[Supersith]

Lets say you are traveling along on the road of time. Picture it as a physical road. Along the way you trip over a log and get a scar on your arm. Farther down the road you take a shortcut on a side road back to that log. You then move it out of the way. Then you take the same shortcut back. You look at your arm. Of course the scar will still be there.

but in an alternate universe you remove the obstacle, the alternate you wouldn't have the scar. And what do you mean the guys who went to the moon got a couple of seconds on us, they didn't travel through time, or into the future, they aged a few seconds less, thats different that traveling through time.

Sorry, that was my own idea, but by the time I got that far in my post I kinda forgot that it was my idea and not yours.

that ok

[SnoringFrog]

but in an alternate universe you remove the obstacle, the alternate you wouldn't have the scar. And what do you mean the guys who went to the moon got a couple of seconds on us, they didn't travel through time, or into the future, they aged a few seconds less, thats different that traveling through time.

IMO, aging a few seconds less would be time travel. It would only mean that instead of going forward or back as we normally consider tiem travel to be, they simply slowed their progress through time, thus, in a way, time traveling. That is, if your statement about them againg a few seconds less was accurate, if it's not, then this post was just my opinion on aging a bit slwer then usual.

[Supersith]

Anyway if time travel is ever possible, wouldnt people in the future come to here? I've never met any time travelers, have you?

I listened to a book on cd called "Odd Thomas" if featured things called bodaux(the only person he ever witnessed talk openly about them when one was around was a little boy who a moment later died when two cars crashed head on and he got caught in the middle) which only a select few who were attoned to the supernatural and could see spirits.(they never talked the dead are silent for some reason until they accept there deaths and pass on then you don't see them again at all don't know what happens after that) He went through the room of the one very evil murders house(bodaux gather around evil things) and walked through a door which sent him back in time a few seconds and he sees himself anyway, his girlfriend who died, believed that they were demons and that was a gateway to hell, but he believed they were timetravelers who found a way to view and not interact and have become so evil and corrupt and come from a future so evil and corrupt that they come to the past to watch the violent deaths of people for entertainment.

There you go, you don't see them because they are so advanced they can view and move about without interacting. (sorry about the mini-book report)

[Supersith]

Its believed that they didn't age a few seconds less but not proven, its hard to explaing some people believe that because of how fast they were going that they aged less i put it there as a contradiction but i don't really think its true.

[SnoringFrog]

Its believed that they didn't age a few seconds less but not proven, its hard to explaing some people believe that because of how fast they were going that they aged less i put it there as a contradiction but i don't really think its true.

Oh okay, and just a word of advice, use the edit and quick edit buttons, don't double post.

[Fireproof]

Two distinct possibilities.
1. If we exist in a single time-steam, you cease to exist, as you've altered the series of events that eventually led to your birth.
2. If time branches off, you've merely created an alternate future where you don't exist.
Take your pick.

[SnoringFrog]

1. If we exist in a single time-steam, you cease to exist, as you've altered the series of events that eventually led to your birth.

But then what would happen in the tiem whcih you came from? Would it all just suddenly alter, or something else?

2. If time branches off, you've merely created an alternate future where you don't exist.

Then does the other future in which you do exist continue or what?

[Supersith]

Two distinct possibilities.
1. If we exist in a single time-steam, you cease to exist, as you've altered the series of events that eventually led to your birth.
2. If time branches off, you've merely created an alternate future where you don't exist.
Take your pick.

Thats basically what i've been saying. Well the time branching off thing anyway.

[Supersith]

Have I answered all the questions on my thoery yet?

[SnoringFrog]

I believe you answered all of my questions, yes.

EDIT: Use the edit button.

[Pent]

About the the people who traveled to the moon.

It has been proven that the faster you travel the slower time goes for you compared to everyone else traveling slower than you. Once you reach light speed time stops. So by going faster then light speed time goes slower then 0 thus you would go back in time.

But anyways how they proved this is by setting atomic clocks perfectly sincronized.
One of these clocks stays on Earth while the other gets put somewhere where it would be going considerabey faster. (Jet, spaceship, even higher alititueds. They have done this experiment with all three.) After flying around a bit or being at a higher altitude for a decade or so the atomic clock that was moming faster is a couple seconds behind the other one.

Your right the people who went to the moon were not time traveling in the way we are talking about it in this thread. But I'm kind of just putting forth a theory of how time travel would work if we where ever able to do it so that we could better understand how we could affect events and time and so forth.

If anyone has ever heard of string theory you might know that scienctist are allready theorizing and making discoveries about alternate universes. So I do think the alternate universe theory does hold alot of merit. But assuming there can not be alternate universes then we run into paradoxes.

Something I found interesting one time in this article I was reading it said the spin of the Earth, our solar system, our galaxy, and even electrons around the nucleous of the atoms distorts time. They said things like this could throw off their etimates of the Universes age by incredible amounts. So light reaching us from a billion light years away from a star doesn't mean it took us a billion years to recieve it. And so forth.

I thought this was interesting becuase most of us here believe the universe is younger then most scientist believe.

[Supersith]

So by going faster then light speed time goes slower then 0 thus you would go back in time.

Isn't it impossible to got faster than the speed of light, but that is an incredibly intresting thory.

I thought this was interesting becuase most of us here believe the universe is younger then most scientist believe.

Yay for Christianity!

If anyone has ever heard of string theory you might know that scienctist are allready theorizing and making discoveries about alternate universes. So I do think the alternate universe theory does hold alot of merit. But assuming there can not be alternate universes then we run into paradoxes.

I actually don't really believe in the alternate universe thing, because what would that mean for your soul, would Christ have to die for each individual universe, would some of you go to heaven and some of you go to hell. And if you have ever read the book "Timeline" u would have heard of this intresting diagram explaing alternate universes existence, its fictional and i don't think it has ever really been done, but it says that they have a light that shoots one proton of light on a censor sensitive enough to detect one photon of light and that instead of going to the point directly in front of the light as it should each photon acts as if it is enteracting with other photons, the owner of the company with the time maching in the book used this to start his explanation about the alternate universes and there time travel device thing.

Anyway thats it for now.

[Technomancer]

Its not an "excuse" its a widely established and accepted theory.

Sort of. It's one of several interpretations of quantum mechanics that arose to deal with the problem of non-determinsitic quantities. I'm not really sure I favour it, but that's mostly a result of my own bias towards more parsimonious explanations/

Bringing the soul into it is now mixing up theology and science. Though its not a conflict, per se, there is too large of a gap between our scientific knowledge of the material world, and our scientific knowledge of the spiritual world.

True. Personally I feel that questions regarding the natural world can only be meaningfully answered through scientific inquiry. I prefer testable theories over non-testable ones. Theology has a purpose in explaining the meaning and purpose of what we see, but it does not offer any useful insights into physical phenomena.

Since with God, anything is possible, time could be an illusion, all of our scientific measurements could be some kind of dream, God could be changing measurements on us when we try

That's one possibility, but if it's true then I think it causes serious problems for a Christian worldview. Moreso than any actual scientific measurements.

There is no Proof of Multiple Demensions and alternate universes, some guy though of it becuase he had nothing to do, and needed money, so why not write a book, put some thought into it, make the numbers match and sell it.

Not really. Most of these theories did arise out of honestly trying to understand what QM actually meant in a physical sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

In any event the original authors of these ideas probably didn't make any money off of them. You don't get paid for writing in scientific journals. Even popular scientific books don't really pay as well as writing pulp.

but to say it's the universe and it has a limit or is infinate is PURE fantasy, same with Big Bang, String theory, Time Travel through worm holes, Gravity. We don't know anything for sure but scientists still Open their mouths, and rant on about something completely made up,

No. We actually do know things about the universe, and we also know which theories don't work. General relativity for example, has been extensively tested and has not yet come up wrong. Wormholes on the other hand represent possible (and as yet untested) solutions of Einstein's equations for GR. However since they have a basis in a well-tested theory, people are willing to look at them seriously. I should recommend that before you complain about scientists, you should actually examine the history of science and how these ideas came to be. There are many excellent books on the subject; I encourage you to read them. Understanding modern science is not simply about finding out what the angle is.

As far as my own thoughts are on time travel, I generally don't think it's possible because of the problem of paradox. Of course that begs the question of just how tightly coupled particles are from their past selves. Indeed if that coupling were absolute, then merely sending a particle backwards in time could cause a problem wrt paradox since it now exists in two places at once. If on the other hand, particles sent backwards in time have an existence independant of their other selves than the paradox may resolved since the states of neither particle are dependant on the other.

[Nate]

Since with God, anything is possible, time could be an illusion, all of our scientific measurements could be some kind of dream, God could be changing measurements on us when we try

That's one possibility, but if it's true then I think it causes serious problems for a Christian worldview. Moreso than any actual scientific measurements.

Agreed.

For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. - 1 Corinthians 14:33 (first half) For God to change measurements on us at His whim seems to go against the nature of God that the Bible presents us. As far as I'm concerned, God has set real physical limitations in this universe that He does not allow to be broken, save for His will...and His breaking of those limitations are what I believe would fall into the category of "miracle."

most of us here believe the universe is younger then most scientist believe.

Not ALL of us...but that's not a subject for this thread.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Dang... I'm so glad time travel is impossible. But perhaps, going back in time and killinh your grandpa would mean that you'd no longer be existing in the "present" and you'd be living in the "past" with the dead man...? Or maybe the world explodes and you live forever in limbo.

[SnoringFrog]

If anyone has ever heard of string theory you might know that scienctist are allready theorizing and making discoveries about alternate universes. So I do think the alternate universe theory does hold alot of merit. But assuming there can not be alternate universes then we run into paradoxes.

Yeah, I watched a show about that once, but it's been awhile since then.

Isn't it impossible to got faster than the speed of light, but that is an incredibly intresting thory

As far as I know, it's not impossible, just unachievable for humans right now.

As far as my own thoughts are on time travel, I generally don't think it's possible because of the problem of paradox. Of course that begs the question of just how tightly coupled particles are from their past selves. Indeed if that coupling were absolute, then merely sending a particle backwards in time could cause a problem wrt paradox since it now exists in two places at once. If on the other hand, particles sent backwards in time have an existence independant of their other selves than the paradox may resolved since the states of neither particle are dependant on the other.

Actualy, I also highly doubt that time travel would be possible (but I love to talk about what would happen if it was), and the mention that imple sending a partcile back might cause paradoxes just gae me an idea as to why it would not work. Due to the Law of Conservation of Mass, which states that(correct me if I'm wrong) matter in a system cannot be created or destroyed wihtout being acted upon by a force outside the system, regardless of it's changes in form, time travel shouldn't work, or would our time now be considered, "an outside force" or "system"? If it isn't another system, then time travel shouldn't be possible because wouldn't sending something back in time as this thread discuusses be, in a sense, creating matter?

Dang... I'm so glad time travel is impossible. But perhaps, going back in time and killinh your grandpa would mean that you'd no longer be existing in the "present" and you'd be living in the "past" with the dead man...? Or maybe the world explodes and you live forever in limbo.

THat could be, you could simple be stranded in time, an originless anomaly with memories that are real to you but not to the universe, and your only existence or past would be one that you fabricate and form as you live your life in that time.

That reminds me of somethign I read in a book about some boy that seemed to pop up out of nowhere and didn't know much about his past or anything like that. I don't remember all of the specifics, but doesn't that sound like it could have been someone who cam eback in time, messed up their past to where they didn't exist, and thereby somehow had their memories vanish from their mind, and then was forced to make another "past" or "existence"? Or it all could have been a hoax, or an orphan with memory loss.

[Technomancer]

Yeah, I watched a show about that once, but it's been awhile since then.

Was it the Brian Greene one on Nova?

As far as I know, it's not impossible, just unachievable for humans right now.

No, it really is impossible, at least according to the Special Theory of Relativity. This has also been observed in practice (e.g. in particle accelerators).

Due to the Law of Conservation of Mass, which states that(correct me if I'm wrong) matter in a system cannot be created or destroyed wihtout being acted upon by a force outside the system,

Not quite. Mass and energy can be converted from one to the other, but the total energy must stay the same. This does not necessarily require the action of an outside force (e.g. radioactive decay).

[SnoringFrog]

Was it the Brian Greene one on Nova?

It was on Nova, so I guess so.

No, it really is impossible, at least according to the Special Theory of Relativity. This has also been observed in practice (e.g. in particle accelerators).

Oh, alright, I didn't know about that. Just what how exactly did they prove that? not that I don't believe you, but i was wondering, I can't remember what I read about particle accelerators, I just know it had something to do with antimatter.

Not quite. Mass and energy can be converted from one to the other, but the total energy must stay the same. This does not necessarily require the action of an outside force (e.g. radioactive decay).

That sounds more like what I was trying to think of, but I didn't have the right book nearby, so I tried to go with what I could remember. But wouldn't sendign a person back in time also increase the amount of energy? or would it convert the energy in the past into the matter which formed the person.

Another thing that bugs me about time travel is, how would you get back? and wouldn't you going back into the past already have happened, since it is in that past, and would have then led to your life being what it is now?

[Pent]

The current ways scienctist believe we could time travel do not allow a way to get back. They also do not allow you to go back further then when the "time machine" was created. It is, according to the theory of special theory of relativity, impossibe to
go the speed of light or faster, that is if you have mass. Photons, gravitrons those type of things theoreticly don't have mass, and so theoreticly are traveling at the speed of light or faster. So they are theoreticly traveling back in time I guess. Notice the extensive use of the word "theorecticly" lol. Because when it comes to this stuff we don't know anything for sure. lol. I find it interesting that black holes
actaully tear holes in space time. What would happen if you went through this hole with out it being connected to another black hole (thus creating a wormhole). Would you get outside of space time?

A current idea for how to time travel would be to have enough of a bend on space time (by mass thus gravity) that space time actaully curves into a full circle. Thus by entering this circle you could travel straight and end up at the same spot. (Also
at the same time as when you began or when the bending began). You have not created energy or mass. There would not be two of you there would only be one of you. It would just be you. If we do end up time traveling in this way, it will be very much like traveling along a physical road instead of through "time".

[Technomancer]

Oh, alright, I didn't know about that. Just what how exactly did they prove that? not that I don't believe you, but i was wondering, I can't remember what I read about particle accelerators, I just know it had something to do with antimatter.

The idea comes out of Einstein's special theory of relativity. Essentially, the equations predict that the relativistic mass will increase to infinity as you approach c, and thus the required energy also goes to infinity. The upshot of this is that while a particle can be accelerated asympotically close to c, it can never actually reach it. As far as particle accelerators go, if the standard laws of motion applied the particles would go faster than the speed of light; they don't however, and Einsteins's predictions about their actual velocity (and kinetic energy) hold true.

[SnoringFrog]

I find it interesting that black holes
actaully tear holes in space time. What would happen if you went through this hole with out it being connected to another black hole (thus creating a wormhole). Would you get outside of space time?

Hm, interesting. I don't know, the only problem would be actually getting through one alive, as far as I've heard that would be impossible.

A current idea for how to time travel would be to have enough of a bend on space time (by mass thus gravity) that space time actaully curves into a full circle. Thus by entering this circle you could travel straight and end up at the same spot. (Also
at the same time as when you began or when the bending began). You have not created energy or mass. There would not be two of you there would only be one of you. It would just be you. If we do end up time traveling in this way, it will be very much like traveling along a physical road instead of through "time".

Oh, okay then.

The idea comes out of Einstein's special theory of relativity. Essentially, the equations predict that the relativistic mass will increase to infinity as you approach c, and thus the required energy also goes to infinity. The upshot of this is that while a particle can be accelerated asympotically close to c, it can never actually reach it. As far as particle accelerators go, if the standard laws of motion applied the particles would go faster than the speed of light; they don't however, and Einsteins's predictions about their actual velocity (and kinetic energy) hold true.

Alright, not 100% sure I got all that, but I'll coe back and reread it later to see if I can figure it out better.

[Supersith]

[this message has been removed by edit due to posting mistake]

[Supersith]

I find it interesting that black holes
actaully tear holes in space time. What would happen if you went through this hole with out it being connected to another black hole (thus creating a wormhole). Would you get outside of space time?

You'd die. Seriously, The gravity in those things are so intense you'd be dead, like instantly.

Well, consider this, TIME DOESN'T EXIST. What we call time is merely the movements going on and continuing lets call these movements postive movements. These positive movements are explained in by our imperfect minds as "time". Now say that we can reverse these movements and create, oh, lets just call them negative movements, or for the sake of this conversation, "anti-time". Could the manipulations of these movements be possible enabeling us to "time travel".

Food for thought.

[yukinon]

Food for thought indeed, and all extremely interesting ideas to play around with in fiction.

[Pent]

At the exponetial incease at technology we find our selves in today what most believe to be science fiction is quickly aproaching. It gives me a feeling God will be back very soon or we may just be able time travel, teleport, or alot of other "science fiction" things which they allready know we "can" do we just don't have the technology yet.

Everyone knows the gravity inside a black hole (or even within in thousands of light years (probably millions but I don't know the specifics)) would kill you. But they have come up with a solution to this problem that only is 150 to 300 years (in my quickly guessed best estimates) to being achievable...

Antigravity!

What is antigravity and does this sound like I'm pulling it straight out of a science fiction flick?! Because I'm not. It's real.

Antigravity is what it sounds like. Anti-gravity. It is just like gravity, but instead of attracting things it repels them. Mixed with gravity in equal amounts you will experience no force in the form of gravity at all.

So produce enough antigravity (of course we can't do this yet becuase you can imagine how much it would take) to hold open the tear in space time long enough (it closes after about the Planck time if I'm not mistaken) for a space ship to pass through. Also you have to have dispersed enough antigravity throughout the rest of the black hole so that your space ship is not torn into oblivion billions of miles before your even close.

Now for reasons unknown to me scientist think that these tears from different black holes are connected. But the black holes can be anywhere in the universe. I guess they are just naturally connected. I can kind of imagine that. In "hyperspace"
these tunnels form to connect any openings to spacetime. I don't know. I guess that's what they think. Please don't hold me to any of this. But I'm wondering how they are just natuarlly connected. And what would happen if they wheren't.

Anyways the theory with this is that obviously different parts of the universe are disincronized. Like two different watches who show different times. But in fact they are both right. So you can either go through a worm hole to go to a natuarlly disicronized area of the unvisverse. Or help it along a little bit by litterly tugging
black holes around in a cage of antigravity.

Ok. Just wanted to explain that to everyone.

Interesting idea that "time" doesn't exist that we are just making "positive movements" but it sounds to me like your trying to explain time and time travel (backwards that is) to someone who has never known or experienced time. So
your not showing how time couldn't exist, your just giving another way for explaining what the rest of us call time. A sequence of events through which we reach the future. We call it time and you call it "positive movements". It is a good idea though since time is defined as a dimension which means it's a "direction". Some say we can't imagine another dimension or direction, but time is. So you do have a point there. To locate or define something you need to know the length, whith, hieght, and time at which it is located. So we can think of your house ten years ago and your house now not as the same place, but actaully two different places. So what you need to do to time travel is learn how to get to these different places.

Another interesting theory I have heard is that everything we see is just a"shadow" of a higher dimensional world.

[PleaseDrinkMilk]

Another interesting theory I have heard is that everything we see is just a"shadow" of a higher dimensional world.

Like the Sea of Dirac in Evangelion? Or am I way off on this one?

[Fireproof]

Another interesting theory I have heard is that everything we see is just a"shadow" of a higher dimensional world.

It's a rather strong theory, actually. Extra spacial dimensions are regularly studied. Though it's not much of a shadow, per se, we can only observe three.