http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387
rrr... this is so upsetting... right when it looked like Creationists were getting the upper hand in this battle (thanks to Pope B. and his bishops), people go and do this.
It really doesn't make sense to me... these people saying virtually in the same sentence that one religion's view is unacceptable under the Constitution and that anothers should still be a requirement for students in public schools.
But then again, what can one expect from an anti-Christian world than the furthering support of today's great anti-Christian religion... But somehow, I don't feel that the Church is gonna just take it sitting down this time... We should all pray for Truth's strength in this continuing battle.
Judge rules against "intelegent design"
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Slater - Posts: 2671
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- Location: Pacifica, Caliphornia
I'm shocked [/sarcasm]
Really, we couldn't possibly have expected a society that has tried to weed every semblance of religion out of the mainstream world view to accept intelligent design. Apparently, it's not "scientific" (Which of course doesn't stop a "theory" called evolution from being taught in our classrooms) so it doesn't belong in schools.
Oh well. This isn't the last time we'll hear about this. Creationists aren't just going to roll over and play dead. Five dollars says they're already appealing this case to a higher court.
Really, we couldn't possibly have expected a society that has tried to weed every semblance of religion out of the mainstream world view to accept intelligent design. Apparently, it's not "scientific" (Which of course doesn't stop a "theory" called evolution from being taught in our classrooms) so it doesn't belong in schools.
Oh well. This isn't the last time we'll hear about this. Creationists aren't just going to roll over and play dead. Five dollars says they're already appealing this case to a higher court.
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.
Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.
But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.
But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Mangafanatic - Posts: 4918
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Mangafanatic wrote:a society that has tried to weed every semblance of religion out of the mainstream world
Except atheism. :\
(Which of course doesn't stop a "theory" called evolution from being taught in our classrooms)
I'm gonna have to call you on that one, 'Saka. EVERYTHING in science is a theory. Nothing is proven in science, everything is only theory. I don't hear you complaining about the theory of gravity being taught simply because it's a theory. Don't single out evolution for only being a theory, when everything else in science is too.
Ezekiel 23:20
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Nate - Posts: 10725
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well, it's not scientific. It's a study of what happened in the past, speculation on why/how what happened happened, and the choice to believe whether or not that it is true. It is very unscientific in that chance lies at the core of evolution... something that scientists everywhere leave as little up to as possible. Evolution is a dogma, it is a religion. As Darwin said, it is the alternative to God. That in itself is a religious viewpoint.
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Slater - Posts: 2671
- Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 10:00 am
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kaemmerite wrote:Except atheism. :\
I'm gonna have to call you on that one, 'Saka. EVERYTHING in science is a theory.
OOOH! LOGIC'D!
Let me clarify. I feel I've misrepresented myself. I more or less meant that I couldn't see why a judge thinks it fitting too take issue with a theory or concept concerning origin, such as Intelligent Design, because it's not backed by "sceintific evidence" when the same could be said of every origin theory which is already taught as fact in schools today. *Is beaten to death by Nate and his scientificness.* XD
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.
Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.
But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.
But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Mangafanatic - Posts: 4918
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:00 am
- Location: In La-La land.
And that's true. It's kind of ironic that the reason they ruled against ID is because it would be the government endorsing religion, when the theory of evolution endorses atheism, and therefore is the government endorsing a religion (though I guess this is partially due to the government's failure to recognize atheism as a religion).
This is why I think the origin of the universe shouldn't be taught in classrooms at all...but that's a rant for somewhere other than here.
This is why I think the origin of the universe shouldn't be taught in classrooms at all...but that's a rant for somewhere other than here.
Ezekiel 23:20
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Nate - Posts: 10725
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I'm sorry, but this is a moot point. Religion is separated from state, and vice versa. Intelligent design, for the most part, is a component of religion. The government says that you can't teach religion in school. That's all there really is to it.
:rock:
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Fireproof - Posts: 643
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Good. The judge made the right decision. Not only did the plaintiffs demonstrate that "intelligent design" was clearly religously motivated, but that it also lacked any sort of scientific foundation whatsoever. The defence's conduct of the trial can only be described as "poor", especially since several Dover school board members will be lucky to avoid perjury charges. Also after Behe's poor showing on the stand, most of the defence's expert witnesses chose to withdraw rather than face similar scrutiny. I was following the trial relatively closely, and am pleased with the outcome (which was never really in doubt, only its scope).
As the trial judge made fairly clear in his ruling, the theory of evolution takes no religous position. This was testified to during the trial. ID may be creationsim in disguise, but evolution !=atheism. Incidentally, before people start complaining about judges, please remember the presiding judge was a Republican and appointed by George W. Bush.
It's kind of ironic that the reason they ruled against ID is because it would be endorsing religion when the theory of evolution endorses atheism,
As the trial judge made fairly clear in his ruling, the theory of evolution takes no religous position. This was testified to during the trial. ID may be creationsim in disguise, but evolution !=atheism. Incidentally, before people start complaining about judges, please remember the presiding judge was a Republican and appointed by George W. Bush.
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
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Technomancer - Posts: 2379
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evolution is atheism... And that's not just coming from my mouth or the mouths of creationists. Athiests everywhere are totally bashing the Church today because they can see that Christianity and evolution simply cannot be accepted by a person as truth at the same time as eachother (look at my rant about Pen & Teller, for one such example). It's why so many people think that Christians are a bunch of hypocrates. They see better than we do that evolution is 100% opposed to the message of Christ better than we Christians do, it seems.
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Slater - Posts: 2671
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- Location: Pacifica, Caliphornia
It seems to me more grounded in the ideas of the Enlightenment where science is based only on what can be observed. Evolution seems to be a theory of "what happened" based on the physical evidence while ID seems to explain "Why it happened"
To keep it fair though, I hope the schools are also forbidden from drawing athiest conclusions if they are forbidden from drawing Christian conclusions. Say how evolution seems to work based on what they see and leave it up to the students and their beliefs to decide whether or not it happened by chance or by the will of God.
Things like that will probably get the thread locked. There are people who believe in God and think He chose to use evolution as His means of creation, guided by His Hand. Are you saying they can't be Christians? It's a rather judgemental statement that will bring hostility to the thread.
To keep it fair though, I hope the schools are also forbidden from drawing athiest conclusions if they are forbidden from drawing Christian conclusions. Say how evolution seems to work based on what they see and leave it up to the students and their beliefs to decide whether or not it happened by chance or by the will of God.
Slater wrote:evolution is atheism... And that's not just coming from my mouth or the mouths of creationists. Athiests everywhere are totally bashing the Church today because they can see that Christianity and evolution simply cannot be accepted by a person as truth at the same time as eachother (look at my rant about Pen & Teller, for one such example). It's why so many people think that Christians are a bunch of hypocrates. They see better than we do that evolution is 100% opposed to the message of Christ better than we Christians do, it seems.
Things like that will probably get the thread locked. There are people who believe in God and think He chose to use evolution as His means of creation, guided by His Hand. Are you saying they can't be Christians? It's a rather judgemental statement that will bring hostility to the thread.
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Arnobius - Posts: 2870
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:41 pm
Slater wrote:well, it's not scientific. It's a study of what happened in the past, speculation on why/how what happened happened,
No, it is perfectly scientific because the theory of evolution, as well as the theories current in geology and cosmology make specific predictions about what we should see if carry out a certain experiment. The prevailing theories have prevailed because they have successfully predicted new phenomena. That is what science does and how it must ultimately work. Even if a particular even is not directly observable, its consequences are, and it is with these consequences that we have been able to demonstrate the power of scientific theories.
It is very unscientific in that chance lies at the core of evolution... something that scientists everywhere leave as little up to as possible.
Neither statement is really true. Evolution may require chance mutations, but selection itself is not random. Nor are the many chemical and physical interactions that produce complex systems.
Being personally very involved in science myself, I also know that while scientists might prefer to control some variables, this doesn't mean they deny the importance of random behaviour or don't study it. Believe me, there are many phenomena that can only be represented statistically as the outcome of random processes.
As Darwin said, it is the alternative to God. That in itself is a religious viewpoint.
I have read Darwin, and he advocates no such position. In fact, he never really said much of anything regarding his religious beliefs (even in his letters) other than to confess his troubles with Christianity. He was most likely some kind of agnostic or deist.
right when it looked like Creationists were getting the upper hand in this battle (thanks to Pope B. and his bishops)
Er..you do realize that official Catholic stance is one of neutrality on this matter? The church recognizes that evolution may be compatible with the Christian faith, and has done so for decades.
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
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Technomancer - Posts: 2379
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:47 am
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the Catholic church is NOT neutral on this matter; that much is clear as day. The Pope has spoken strongly against evolution in recent months, saying that evolution is fully opposed to Christianity, and his officials have backed him up, saying that evolution is a religion and that evolution/creationism belong in religion classes, not in science classes.
And I don't see what you mean by saying that scientists rely on chance in their work. In all the science courses I've taken (and even some philosophy classes which deal with forensics), everyone acknowledges that scientists work under enviroments that leave as little to chance as possible.
... *sigh* I gotta stop. The mods have advised me to not debate this anymore or else they're gonna ban me, so I must ask that everyone stop debating as well. Come to think of it, this thread also has a potential to turn political since it deals with the constitutional duties of the judicial branch of the USA, so... I guess I'd have been better off posting this at GORG and not here.
And I don't see what you mean by saying that scientists rely on chance in their work. In all the science courses I've taken (and even some philosophy classes which deal with forensics), everyone acknowledges that scientists work under enviroments that leave as little to chance as possible.
... *sigh* I gotta stop. The mods have advised me to not debate this anymore or else they're gonna ban me, so I must ask that everyone stop debating as well. Come to think of it, this thread also has a potential to turn political since it deals with the constitutional duties of the judicial branch of the USA, so... I guess I'd have been better off posting this at GORG and not here.
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Slater - Posts: 2671
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Actually, since this is going to turn into creationism vs. evolution again, I think this would be better off closed.
"you're a doctor.... and 27 years.... so...doctor + 27 years = HATORI SOHMA" - RoyalWing, when I was 27
"Al hail the forum editting Shooby! His vibes are law!" - Osaka-chan
I could still be champ, but I'd feel bad taking it away from one of the younger guys. - George Foreman
"Al hail the forum editting Shooby! His vibes are law!" - Osaka-chan
I could still be champ, but I'd feel bad taking it away from one of the younger guys. - George Foreman
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shooraijin - Posts: 9927
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