Christmas Under Siege

[Fireproof]

I see how this argument has degenrated.
1. Wal-mart is putting up "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." The consequences are a horse a piece. Put up "Happy Holidays", and you tick the Christians off at Wal-Mart for not agreeing with them. Put up "Merry Christmas" and the nonchristians get ticked off at Wal-Mart for agreeing with the Christians. Either way, letters will be written, petitions will be signed, and things won't end well.
2-29. Degeneration
30. The whole country is against us and we'll all be tossed into jail soon.
Christians are over two thirds of the freakin' populatio, folks. Men in white suits won't take us away to secret government facilities for being Christian any time soon. While I do think Wal-mart's decision is just a touch irrational, and that political correctness is the malignant tumor that's messing up the world, this whole thread has declined and won't last too long from here.

[Slater]

All of these things have one central topic: how much the world is opposed to Christ. Forget the politics and social science behind it... Things aren't really gonna change. Maybe at face-value they will, but not at heart. Ever since Jesus was a baby, He and His followers were persecuted for following Him- for running under his banner. Revelation makes it clear that things will continue the same path at the end of time, so it is only logical to believe that the world will remain an enemy of Christ until every knee bows to Him. The Christmas controversy is only a tip of the iceberg... and a very trivial one when one looks at it. Christians are still Christians, we can still witness to non-Christians, the Lord's master plan is not defeated. Yes, all these things are sadening, but I think we concentrate on them a bit too much.

Never thought I'd say this, but I don't think that this thread's gonna do much more good here... starting to take turns towards areas that CAA tends to shy away from...

[Bobtheduck]

"Christians are over two thirds of the freakin' populatio, folks"

First, I think you're refering to the US. Even reported numbers are very low in the UK, in Australia, and in New Zealand out of the English speaking countries... I am entirely unsure of Canada.

I somehow doubt this, if only because I know of entire churches that believe in Jesus as a metaphor rather than the real, come in the flesh, died on the cross, resurrected Son of God... The numbers are much lower than reported, and many claiming to be Christians are only in those churches because of tradition or whatever, or because it gives them leverage "Yeah, I'm a Christian, but I think Abortion is ok. I'm a Christian, but homosexuality / sex outside of marriage / swinger lifestyles / porn (and things that go with it) are OK. I'm a Christian, but you can't tell someone else how to live. I'm a Christian, but all religions are right. " The sympathetic religious non-nut...

I went to a nation that has a higher percentage of registered Christians: Fiji. While I was there, within the churches we went to, there was homosexuality, non-married couples living and sleeping together, and reports of abuse, both physical and sexual, that was rampant. I know that it is the same in the US, though much easier to keep secret. Claiming to be a Christian doesn't make you one. It also doesn't mean that those same people who claim to be Christians won't support legal action against Christians who live out their faith. Against the "fanatics and extremists." For how consistantly prolifers are equated with the abortion clinic bombings, and how often all evangelists and ministers are equated with the ministers and evangelists that have cheated on wives, imbezled(sp? I know that's not right) money, and abused children... People who don't take as serious a stance as we should will look at those who do in the same light as the ones who harm people.

Once again, however, I don't think that we need to FIGHT those things, but to say it doesn't exist is just plain irresponsible. Of course, I think the same applies within our community... I don't think that everyone who even claims to be Christian in our community really is. I don't think it's my place to say who is and who isn't, even for myself really I just want to follow Jesus, and always remind myself of what he said, and allow him to correct me where I've gone wrong. Ok, that is digressing.

I wasn't really threatened by this removal of Christmas from advertising... I don't really care. I suppose it's better for it not to be mentioned at all than for something that we have meant to be about Jesus is instead about commercialism and parties and guilt. Maybe this fear of Christmas from the stores will help to "clean it out" a bit...

[Slater]

amen to a lot of that... My friend and his family are registered as Catholic, but only so that they can recieve the inheiritance when my friend's grandma dies (his mom told me this herself). The last time I really went over to his house was for his birthday party about 5-6 years ago. There was smoking, pornography, and (so I heard from one of the guys who stayed out of that stuff while the party was going on) homosexual encounters aplenty at that party. After that, I never went in his house again, but the next time we met up (to see a sneak preview of Kangaroo Jack), he and his friends got into a conversation about how those who say that they're Christian are just a bunch of religious nuts trying to take over the world. Definitly not Christian there.

So, yeah. Those statistics are more than likely very off. I know that when I was younger, I'd write down that I was a Christian just because I considered myself to be in the Christian "pack," not because I considered Jesus as my Lord and Master. It was just an affiliation, and that's what most people, I imagine, think today.

[Nate]

I agree with Slater, a lot of people see Christ as a "license to sin" and "afterlife insurance."

Basically, they think that as long as they say "I'm a Christian" and go to church a couple of times and maybe read a verse from the Bible, that they can do whatever they want to and it's forgiven.

Some even go so far as to say, "I don't think God really exists, I just accepted Christ so that in case He does, I'm covered."

By a poll, these people would call themselves Christian, but they really aren't. So, even though the majority of America may profess themselves to be Christian, when you look at the heart of it, I'd say that actual TRUE Christians are more than likely in the minority.

[Puritan]

As for the happy holidays thing, it is a bit overblown. Hanukkah is a minor Jewish holiday, but it gets a big deal made about it because its at Christmastide (anyone ever hear of Yom Kippur? Its a MUCH bigger deal). Kawanza is also a minor holiday with few adherants, but it too is at Christmas.

Also, from my understanding the Romans started a LOT of Christmas traditions. The gifts, the tree, decorating the tree (the Romans even put an image of the sun at the top of the tree, changed to the star for the star of Bethlehem whe the Christians took hold), the time of year, the parties, even what are now Christmas cookies. Does that make them bad? I would say absolutely not. But are they distinctively Christian? Also absolutely not. There are two holidays here, the secular and the Christian, and I believe Christians can celebrate both. However, why are we surprised at the situation? True Christians have ALWAYS been in the minority, sometimes an even smaller minority in the times that consider themselves the most "Christian." That's the cross we bear. But what can you expect from a world mired in evil, sanity and reason? Like Bunyan's Worldly-Wiseman, they may look fair and sound fair, but their intent is foul. Our civilization spent many long years in the village of Morality, but we now seem to be turning into Vanity-Fair. Neither is better than the other, but at least we can point to the sins in Vanity-Fair, whereas they are often hidden better in the village of Morality.

[Slater]

I don't think we celebrate the Roman holiday... tho we follow some of its rituals (did I hear right when I heard that one of the rituals included drunken, homosexual activities? o.o; )... Still I think the true spirit of that holiday is gone and people (mostly) use it as a time of giving, which is not bad. Some of the symbols remain, hai, but to a Christian, I guess it means as much to us as a cross means to the average non-Christian who wears one around his neck.

...
hmm... whether or not that's right is something I will have to ponder...

[Tenshi no Ai]

[quote="Slater"]I don't think we celebrate the Roman holiday... tho we follow some of its rituals (did I hear right when I heard that one of the rituals included drunken, homosexual activities? o.o]

All I saw to that, is you do NOT want to know how the pagans used to decorate their "Christmas" trees >_< I'm happy that our decorations are how they are now at least...

[rocklobster]

All I saw to that, is you do NOT want to know how the pagans used to decorate their "Christmas" trees >_< I'm happy that our decorations are how they are now at least...

Figures. The Greeks and Romans were the party animals of ancient history.

[Tenshi no Ai]

I found another dissapointment...

So every year in the local newspaper, they print out a book of traditional Christmas songs. Well, not this year. Half of the booklet this year was published things like "My Christmas tradition is....". BUT on the bright side, they DID add in near the back things that are going on in different churches in town for worship (although mine wasn't listed) so that's one good thing. Kinda sad though, when you hear about those people that ONLY go to church on Christmas and Easter "out of respect", only because the family is.

[Slater]

what good is respect towards something you don't believe in? Kinda the big flaw in "religious tolerance," eh...?

[Debitt]

I think there's a big difference between respecting and accepting. I totally don't have a problem with civilly discussing my beliefs with, say, a Buddhist for example. I don't believe in the teachings of the religion, but what's so wrong with trying to understand what they believe and treating their beliefs with respect? How can we as Christians ask for understanding when we're not ready to lend our own understanding to other religions? I'm not saying embrace a universalist philosophy, but at the same time, don't immediately become snobbish or bigoted against people who believe other things. The more we understand and respect another religion, the more ready we are to explain what we believe to people of that religion.

[Nate]

Word, Kodai. Even if I don't believe another religion, I'd totally respect them, because they don't believe in mine, and I'd want them to respect me.

[Sakura15]

The more we understand and respect another religion, the more ready we are to explain what we believe to people of that religion.

I agree, we have to understand their religion to be able to talk to them about ours.

[Slater]

of course. I see where you're coming from. Open-mindedness is important. If we aren't open minded, then it is hard to witness to such people because they get the feeling that we don't care about what they follow after. I would never trample anyone for their religious beliefs, and neither should any Christian. But still, when you realize that at the heart of every other religion lies a "false god" (in many cases, demons), it's hard to really be supportive of such views. People follow after things that will eventually be the end of them, and that is sadening and angering (not towards the person) at the same time.

[Debitt]

I'd be cautious to make the accusation that demons are at the heart of every other religion - obviously that's the point of Satanism and many cultish religions, but I don't think that the followers of every other religion are unwittingly following a demon. Beliefs that obviously aren't divinely inspired, and beliefs that may center around a false god, but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to such a conclusion. I think there are many religions and worldviews that are guided by a man's selfishness, or at times are guided by good intentions but in the absence of our Lord, and while that isn't demonic in nature, it has the potential to be equally harmful.

And again I point out - I'm not saying embrace Universalism, and I'm not saying let people of other religions think they're right, but lending understanding is the key word. You can understand without supporting or condoning.

[Puritan]

This is true, we should take the time to understand what people believe, where they come from, and what they think of Christianity when we witness to them. The Apostle Paul did just that when he went to Athens (Acts Chr. 17) and uses their religiosity to help preach the gospel. However, today religious "tolerance" has gone from toleration of incorrect beliefs and etiqute towar others to an almost Agnostic or Universalist insistance that no one has a monopoly on truth, and that it is wrong to claim people are wrong, or damned (no, I am NOT swearing, I mean this in its biblical sense). But, while we must be polite and understand other people, we must also not brush over the consequences of their actions and pretend everything will be alright no matter what they do. This "tolerance" is a common thread in most societies, ours not excepted, and is also a very straight road to destruction.

[Nate]

I've said a million times that paganism isn't the same as Satanism.

Oh, and Kodai, just so you know, most Satanists don't believe Satan even exists. So, yeah.

[Slater]

right, I didn't say that EVERY religion has demons at its center. Many have misguided brat-men at their center. Others (like Satanism, somewhat ironically) have nobody but the follower at it's center... a self-fufilling religion in which you are your own god.

In any case, don't we all agree that anything but a Christ-centered life is a road to pain?

[Nate]

In any case, don't we all agree that anything but a Christ-centered life is a road to pain?

No arguments here.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Satanism is just a religion for those who are anti-christian and wish to live a life of worldly pleasures

[Debitt]

Oh, and Kodai, just so you know, most Satanists don't believe Satan even exists. So, yeah.

xD Yeah, I remembered that about halfway through typing my reply, and I looked back and thought "...meh. <_<; They'll catch my drift." LoL

From my understanding, there are Satanists who do worship Satan in some way or another, and the greater majority who are self serving.

[Lady Macbeth]

My thoughts on the subject:

The entire hoopla around the "Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays" controversy is ridiculous. Let sleeping happy holidays lie - when I was young, it was perfectly ok to say either "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", and it should be that way today. I am of the opinion that the furor is just a way to distract from more important issues, but to keep this from being political I'll leave it at that.

While reading over this thread, I also found some points and questions that I'm particularly able to address. Yes, I quote Slater a lot - I'm not picking on him, he just happened to say/ask a lot of things that I have the knowledge and experience to address.

yeah, it does bother me... that ad above all others. It's so overt and blatently a way of saying that they don't care about Christ, you can almost smell it in their voices as it comes through the speakers.

Since I've been on the forums, I have never agreed with Slater more. These retailers absolutely do not care about the Christ, or the "reason for the season". They're about selling things - that's why they push Christmas gifts, not Christmas spirit. Commercialism is the greatest bane to Christmas today.

hahaha... I love that. People being called haters because they follow the God of Love... and Bhudists being called peaceful when their religion teaches them that hugging a child is cruelty... and that if you love your child, you'll beat him/her.

Buddhists are pacifists - they seek to end suffering, not cause it. Most deeply faithful adherents do not have children, because they do not have spouses or any significant others. Buddhism teaches men to free themselves from attachment to the material world in order to free themselves from suffering. That's why the stereotypical image of a Buddhist is the orange-clad monk in Tibet who looks just like all the other orange-clad monks, eats plain rice out of a plain bowl, owns nothing, and spends his day in prayer. Early Buddhism did not allow women or children to be Buddhist, because they were considered needy and dependent by nature, something that could not be overcome through prayer and meditation like men could overcome it.

Though I do agree that what you are actually celebrating is what is most important, and would be curious to know what part of Halloween a Christian would like to celebrate. And if it has nothing to do with the actual meaning of Halloween, then have your celebration at the same time?

"Halloween" is a contraction of "All Hallow's Evening". "Hallows" are "Holy People" or "Saints". All Hallow's Evening, and All Hallow's Day (Nov. 1) celebrate the Saints. It's primarily a Catholic holiday, but is celebrated by several Protestant denominations as well.

By the way, you DO realize that All Saint's Day, a Christian holiday, is on October 31, right?

Small correction - see above. "All Saints's Day" is the same as "All Hallow's Day".

Halloween was derived from the word Hallows' eve, for the farmers giving thanks for the harvest of the fields. Where they got Halloween from it and having the idea of the dead...I don't know.

The harvest was not as important to the Christians celebrating All Hallow's Evening. The celebration that you're thinking of, regarding both the harvest and the dead, is Samhain, the Pagan holiday that falls on the same night. Samhain is a time to harvest and reflect - harvesting is also symbolic of "reaping what you sow", so it's a time to look back on the year, including all of those who have passed on in the previous year. It is the end of the year for many Northern peoples, and Nov. 1 is celebrated somewhat like New Year's Day in the old traditions. There are a few Pagan religions that celebrate the "Time Between Time" between Samhain and Yule - their old year ends on Samhain and the New Year begins on Yule, and the time in between is for rest and reflection. Because many Pagans honor their dead, part of Samhain rituals is leaving out food for a "silent feast", where the dead are welcome to come back and visit their living relatives for the night and share in the year's bounty.

Is it true that the "Spirit of Giving" comes from a Roman Pagan holiday?

Yes. It's a combination of Saturnalia celebrations paired with The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. While in later years The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun combined ALL of Rome's heroes and gods born on that day, it's early celebration revolved around the birthday of Mithras. Mithras was a sun god believed to have been born on December 25, the Winter Solstice. (Our calendar has since changed, hence the move of the Solstice to December 21/22.) His birth was heralded to shepherds and gift-carrying Magi, who came to witness him in the cave where he was born. The Roman Emperor Aurelian combined The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun with Saturnalia into one holiday on the Winter Solstice, and the holiday retained it's December 25th date after the Gregorian calendar came into use. It is only in recent times that Pagan Reconstructionist religions have reclaimed the actual Solstice date for their holidays.

I don't think we celebrate the Roman holiday... tho we follow some of its rituals (did I hear right when I heard that one of the rituals included drunken, homosexual activities? o.o]

The rituals in particular didn't require drunken homosexual activities. However, the Romans favored good wine when they were celebrating, and they had no real prohibition against homosexuality.

I'll agree with you that the true spirit of the holiday is missing. And, I'll also agree with "hollow symbols" those that people use but mean nothing to them - it's definitely something people should think more about. I personally do not use symbols that mean nothing to me when celebrating any holiday.

All I saw to that, is you do NOT want to know how the pagans used to decorate their "Christmas" trees >_< I'm happy that our decorations are how they are now at least...

I'm not sure what you heard, Tenshi, but feel free to PM me and ask/discuss about it. Pagans, both ancient and modern, decorate their trees with fruits of the season - usually candied or sugared fruits, as they would have been preserved by this time of year. They also use garlands of greenery, and figures of snowflakes, stars and suns.

I think KhakiBlueSocks summed up my feelings on the "holiday controversy" early on:

Does it really matter what you call the holiday? I mean aren't there more important things that some of these groups could be doing instead of worrying about what the nearest "Sears" or "Macy's" is calling this time of the year?

There are way, way more important things in the world than harassing Sears and Macy's this time of year, and that's addressed to the secular side more than the Christian side - as I said above, I feel "Merry Christmas" is just fine.

But gee - then the sarcastic side of me slips in]So this is Christmas
And what have you done
Another year over
And a new one just begun
And so this is Christmas
I hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young

Chorus:
A very Merry Christmas
And a happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear

And so this is Christmas
For weak and for strong
For rich and the poor ones
The world is so wrong
And so happy Christmas
For black and for white
For yellow and red ones
Let's stop all the fight

Chorus

And so this is Christmas
And what have we done
Another year over
A new one just begun
And so happy Christmas
We hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young

Chorus

War is over, if you want it
War is over now

Happy Christmas [/I]

[Bobtheduck]

His birth was heralded to shepherds and gift-carrying Magi, who came to witness him in the cave where he was born.

Maybe I misunderstood your meaning here, but I can't help but feel a bit nauseous when someone tries to claim that events of Jesus life were ripped off other religions... Of course you'll have historians come up with things like that, but really they've got it backwards... You'll hear that Jesus was ripped off of Hercules, other Greek and Roman myths, and off of Hindu myths. This is pretty absurd for all the history that surrounds him and the people that rose up around him... It's just silly revisionists that will try to discredit the Bible by any means necissary, including taking facts out of context and making things up outright.

Jesus wasn't adapted from other religions. He was a real person, and the events happened the way they were written in the Gospels.

[rocklobster]

Maybe I misunderstood your meaning here, but I can't help but feel a bit nauseous when someone tries to claim that events of Jesus life were ripped off other religions... Of course you'll have historians come up with things like that, but really they've got it backwards... You'll hear that Jesus was ripped off of Hercules, other Greek and Roman myths, and off of Hindu myths. This is pretty absurd for all the history that surrounds him and the people that rose up around him... It's just silly revisionists that will try to discredit the Bible by any means necissary, including taking facts out of context and making things up outright.

Jesus wasn't adapted from other religions. He was a real person, and the events happened the way they were written in the Gospels.

AMEN AND AMEN!

[Technomancer]

Maybe I misunderstood your meaning here, but I can't help but feel a bit nauseous when someone tries to claim that events of Jesus life were ripped off other religions

For all that it makes you uncomfortable, she is correct in several important details. Namely that Mithras was reported to have been born of a virgin with only shepards in attendance. Like many other solar deities he was supposed to have been born near the winter solstice.

The fact that we are Christians should not make us uncomfortable in observing certain parallels between our own stories and those of other peoples, even if those stories predate Christianity. Certainly, we can choose to interpret those parallels as anticipating in some sense the true myth that we believe in. That the Christian story should follow the same habits of mind, which our species has tread for uncounted millenia should not necessarily count against it. Rather, we can see this story as the fulfillment of these unconciously expressed hopes.

[holysoldier5000]

Jesus wasn't adapted from other religions. He was a real person, and the events happened the way they were written in the Gospels.

Christmas is about Jesus and Jesus is the truth. Jesus is reality, Jesus is the key to life. "In him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," (Colossians 2:3)."Well," someone says, "how do you know that? How do you know you are not performing an act of blind faith without any supporting evidence at all? You say you believe in Jesus, but you have accepted him as the authority without any evidence to support it. That's blind faith." But that is not what a Christian does. Christian faith is not blind faith. When we believe Christ is the truth, we believe it because he demonstrated he was the truth. We need to put it on that basis.
How did he demonstrate that he was the truth? First, by what he said. Read the things he said. Incomparable things! He gave the clearest insights into what human life was about ever given in the hearing of men. Even his enemies say so. No one ever saw so clearly as he, no one ever probed so deeply or put his finger so precisely upon the elements which make up human life and thinking. In what he said you can see he spoke the truth. "No one ever spoke the way this man does," (John 7:46)
But not only that, he demonstrated the truth by what he did. This New Testament record is an amazing account of mighty deeds and historic events. Miracles? Yes, there are evidences of the intrusion of the spiritual kingdom -- that invisible realm of reality -- into the visible realm. He capped it all, of course, by showing that he had solved the one problem which is insoluble to every other man -- the problem of death. He rose from the dead! Who else has ever done anything like that? What other philosopher, what other thinker, what other man who has ever challenged men has ever done anything like that -- solved that basic problem of life? That is why I know Jesus Christ is the truth, because he solved the problem of death.
This, by the way, is why the enemies of the Scriptures fight so fiercely to destroy the historicity of these events, if they can. They want us to think it does not matter whether these things were historically true. Of course they are historically true, and of course it greatly matters, for these events demonstrate that Jesus was the truth. But it is not only by what he said and what he did, but further, by what he is. Bring this into the present. What has he been to you? What has he been to others? Look back at your own Christian life and its beginnings. Did he deliver you? Has he set you free? Has he broken any chains in your life? Has he been your friend? Has he brought you back into balance and harmony? It has been pointed out that through the centuries men have been calling on others for help. You may lack courage and call on a great contemporary hero to help you, but nothing happens. You may lack wisdom and call on one of the great philosophers of the day. Or, lacking eloquence, you may cry, "Shakespeare, help me!" But no help comes. Yet for twenty centuries men and women in desperate plight have been calling our, "Lord Jesus Christ, help me" -- and help is given! Deliverance comes! That is how we know he is the truth. Remember that all conflicting systems and philosophies must be tested at all points, not just at one. Many philosophies can do something. Ah, yes, many systems which basically are wrong still can help in a limited area. They can help somewhere, they can accomplish some good. But, my Christian friends, we must learn that this is never the mark of truth. Because something does some good is no mark of truth. Truth is a complete entity. Truth is reality, the way things really are. Therefore it is the explanation of all things. You know you have found the truth when you find something which is wide enough and deep enough and high enough to encompass all things. That is what Jesus Christ does. Further, ultimate reality never changes. Here is another mark. Truth never needs updating, never needs to be modernized. If something was true ten thousand years ago, it is still true today. If it is true today, it was true a hundred thousand years ago. Truth does not need updating. I delight in the story of the man to came to his old friend, a music teacher, and said to him in that flippant way we moderns use, "What's the good news today?" The old man never said a word. He walked across the room, picked up a hammer and struck a tuning fork. As the note sounded out through the room, he said, "That is 'A.' It is 'A' today, it was 'A' five thousand years ago, and it will be 'A' ten thousand years from now. The soprano upstairs sings off-key, the tenor across the hall flats his high notes, and the piano downstairs is out of tune." He struck the note again, and said, "That is 'A,' my friend, and that's the good news for today!" That is what Jesus Christ is -- unchanging. He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever," (Hebrews 13:8). That is how you know you have truth.

On Christ the solid rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

[Slater]

Wait a minute...

We have a traitor

[uc pseudonym]

You aren't referring to "x-mas" are you? My apologies if I missed your true intent, and you can disregard this post.

The name "X-mas" refers to early Christianity. The name of Jesus in Greek begins with a character that is essentially an X. To avoid the persecution of the Roman Empire after Christianity was considered separate from Judaism in 70-100, many Christians would identify one another with the symbol. I am uncertain when "X-mas" was coined, but it is merely an abbreviation of the holiday's name by replacing Christ with a symbol that had represented him.