Christmas Under Siege

[holysoldier5000]

I would have to agree with Android Raptor that we should never force our personal beliefs on others.

I agree too. I think everyone should be treated with respect and kindness regardless of who you are or what you believe. But I also believe that principles and faith should not be sacrificed for "political correctness" or pleasing another's whims.

[Nate]

I would have to agree with Android Raptor that we should never force our personal beliefs on others.

Force, no. Preach, yes. We are to present the message of the Gospel through our actions and live as an example to those who do not believe. We aren't to try and argue someone into believing in Christ, for only God can change the heart of men.

Also, I was not accusing AR of being one of those atheists, just making a statement (which is why I did not include the modifier "all," as that would make it a generic statement, and a false one at that).

Anyway, I ultimately fail to see how saying "Merry Christmas" or putting up a nativity scene somehow forces our beliefs onto others. I know she wasn't saying that (please do not accuse me of such). I'm talking about the extreme ones that state things like that. If somebody says "Happy Kwanzaa" to me or I see a menorah when I'm out walking around, I don't feel that they are pushing their beliefs on me, and am not offended by it.

The fact of the matter is that Christmas wasn't a recognized holiday in the U.S. until the 1870s.

This is true. However, it IS A RECOGNIZED HOLIDAY NOW. Which is why I feel it is unlawful to force people to not be allowed to openly celebrate it.

Also it was considered a "Pagan" celebration by the Puritans and outlawed in New England as well as Old England during the Cromwellian Commonwealth.

Because originally it was a pagan celebration, the pagan festival of Yuletide. It was the Church that decreed that Christ's birth would be celebrated on Yuletide, same as many other Christian holidays that were placed on pagan celebrations. It was to help the pagans become more agreeable to adopting the faith.

It's not surprising, then, that England (which was mostly Protestant) would be opposed to celebrating Christmas, as they saw it as a Catholic holiday. This is why Shao Feng Li's statement that "I am not a Catholic, so why would I celebrate Christmas" is an understandable statement. Not one I agree with, but understandable nonetheless.

[ashfire]

I just found out some of our politicians and public school officials need some work done on their brains. At a recent Christmas Tree dedication a Catholic Father was giving the blessing for the tree when he mentioned Jesus Christ the mayor jump into the middle the blessing and said "I want to remind everyone this is not a religious ceremony." He later had to apologize to the church, the Father and the public for what he did. I think he could be needing a new job after the next elections in that town.
The public school officials are also doing their best to keep Christmas out of the schools in different ways.
Students can't wear the colors red and green together, Christmas songs like "Silent Night" must have the lyrics changed so that they can be sung at any school or public function. A school music teacher must consult a lawer to find out what Christmas music and songs he would be allowed to have his students sing.
There are more stories out there that keep coming out on Bill O Ralley's radio show and he his doing his best to let his listeners know how far its gone.

[Roll]

I saw a Target commercial earlier today, and I couldn't believe my eyes! At the beginning were the words "Countdown to Christmas," and at the end of the ad, "MERRY CHRISTMAS" was displayed on the screen. Target, saying the C-word?! Could it be that they're actually taking notice, realizing that they're offending more people by not saying it? Wow! We're making a difference, people! ^^

[rocklobster]

I hate the fact that Christmas trees are now called "Holiday" trees. Does anyone know of another holiday associated with trees? Well, yeah, there's "Arbor Day". This is why I hate songs like "Frosty the Snowman", "Let it Snow" and "Sleigh Ride". What do they have to do with Christmas. And don't even get me started on that whole "Xmas" thing. ARGH!
And while we're at it, they should ban "12 Days of Christmas" too. Those gifts have hidden religious meaning:
the partridge=Jesus Christ
turtledoves=Old and new Testaments
french hens=faith, hope, charity
calling birds=4 gospels
golden rings=first five books of the Old Testament
geese a-laying= 6 days of creation (remember, he rested on the 7th)
swans a swimming=7 sacraments
maids a milking=8 beautidues (sp?)
ladies dancing=9 gifts of the holy spirit
lords a leaping=10 commandments
pipers piping= 11 faithful apostles (excluding Judas, because he betrayed Jesus.)
drummers drumming=the 12 tribes of Israel.
BTW, I don't think they should ban the song. I was being facetious.

[ShiroiHikari]

One thing I find interesting is that "Feliz Navidad" is still "okay" to say. They know what it means, right? Apparently not...

Another interesting and slightly off-topic observation: it's not PC to say Merry Christmas anymore, but this morning on the Today show, they played Jesus Is Still Alright in the background not once, but twice.

[ashfire]

The newspaper comic strip "Prickly City" has the best name for whose who plan to take on the anit-Christmas establishment. Noel Insurgents.
We will wear them all down until they give up and just sit back and let us enjoy ourselfs again in the true celebration of Christmas.

[TheDrunkenNinja]

I really don't think I should say this, but this kinda annoys me...a lot.

HEATHEN.

I respect their decision...sort of.

[Arbre]

ACLU is the biggest enemy to God Loving Americans. When they attack Christmas and support some of the evilest ideas by groups who will do everything to change our society and cause the fall of this country.
One group is the Man Boy Love Society who is supported and protected by the ACLU. Its also hard to believe the fameous actors and rich people who pour money and support into the ACLU.
I think they should drop the "A" for American and change it to "E" for Evil.

Pretty sure that their "support" of NAMBLA was just as far as supporting free speech in a cetain situation... and that's one case that they've been criticized for very, very harshly.

The ACLU defends Christian and other religious groups when it's an issue of civil rights being violated.

I really hope this doesn't cross the line into the forbidden political post, and I will keep my personal opinion as muted as I can...

But not everyone views the role of government and religion the same way, even among Christians.

One of the biggest reasons that obvious religious songs (Silent Night, Away in a Manger, etc) aren't really being sung in public schools is because schools are federally funded and in many ways, an extension of government-- or at least, governments have the responsibility to uphold them as current polocies go. And we have people from many backgrounds sending their children to those schools. With the common "seperation of church and state" idea, some believe very strongly that schools shoudn't be used to promote *any* religion, that it should be done at home or outside of it.

Just for fun.. think if the situation was reversed, and Christians were in the minority. What if a different religion had a HUGE holiday in say... October. And even though traditionally, schools had always sung songs, often religious in nature, about one of that religion's gods, the ACLU started getting involved in it, saying that it was an unfair thing, to devote school time to this, especially when not everyone believed in it.

You may not agree with that scenario being an accurate analogy. That's fine. But try to understand that some people do hold that view. It's not even just nonChristians. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Not my place.


For a whole lot of reasons, I'm not really as disapponted as some of you about Christmas being mentioned less by private businesses, public schools, etc. For businesses, it's their choice. For schools, it's kinda out of their hands, as far as I see it. Of course there is room for compromise with the schools, though.

No one is stopping me from wishing people a merry Christmas. And except in some extreme cases where people went a little too far in trying to be PC, the issue is mostly about government endorsement of Christmas as a religious holiday. Businesses often just try to get more customers and retain their current ones. Advertising is a risky thing. This "They're destroying CHristmas!" claim has been made against businesses before-- just, it was often used to criticise them on their commercialism.

I work in retail. I see the general "Happy Holidays" around, but there's still plenty of "Christmas." And the people at the corporate level of this particular store wish people Merry Christmas. I've heard them.

But really... I don't personally see the need to make others recognize Christmas in order to be thankful for what it means to me.

[Puritan]

Hmm, interesting. I am a newcomer in these forums, having seen your site and used it for the good reviews before, but never having posted. However, I found this thread interesting enough to register (finally). I find it quite interesting that so many of you are suprised, angry, and concerned about the "secularization" of Christmas. As someone noted the holiday was started by the Catholic church to try to stamp out a Pagan winter Solstace holiday, but (as was not noted) many of the traditions which have survived are secular in origin. Christmas trees (although the lights came from Martin Luther), giving gifts, and other aspects of the holiday are secular. The Puritans did outlaw Christmas, but not primarily because it was Catholic. They did not agree with ANY "holy" days being designated apart from Sunday, or as they called it, the Lord's Day. While I disagree with them on this point, as I believe than one can dedicate any day as holy to God and Christmas is a fine time to celebrate the birth of Christ. I think the history illustrates Christmas as a holiday is not inherently Christian. One can celebrate Christ Mass, a Christian holiday, and one can celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.

So, apart from the history, why am I not concerned about the whole Happy Holidays thing? Humans are essentially corrupt without regeneration from God, and they will oppose everything good in the world, including the celebration of the birth of Christ. You can force them to say Merry Christmas, but you can't make them mean it in a Christian sense. Likewise, people can try to force you to say Happy Holidays, but that doesn't mean that you appreciate the birth of Christ any less. So why are we concerned that the corrupt and evil people of this world don't want to celebrate the birth of Christ, destroyer of Satan and righteous judge of all? I for one am not concerned. The outward display of "Christianity" by those who don't mean it or believe it is no better than blatant paganism. Christ brings people to him, not a trite phrase or holiday. I think that Christians should celebrate the coming of Christ always, including Christmas and all other times, and show the truth and love of God to all we encounter.

I believe that to celebrate Christmas with a contrite and joyful heart pleases God, but without the love of God the celebration is "a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal" (1 Cor 13:1). Christians should be the light of the world and should not be surprised when retailers and government don't spread that light for them.

[rocklobster]

I think the history illustrates Christmas as a holiday is not inherently Christian.

You know, if we take out everything that's of pagan origin, pretty soon, there won't be much religion left.

[holysoldier5000]

Let us not forget the reason for the season:

GO, TELL IT ON THE MOUNTAIN
Words by: John W. Work, Jr.

Go, tell it on the mountain,
Over the hills and everywhere
Go, tell it on the mountain,
That Jesus Christ is born.

While shepherds kept their watching
Over silent flocks by night
Behold throughout the heavens
There shone a holy light.

Go, tell it on the mountain,
Over the hills and everywhere
Go, tell it on the mountain,
That Jesus Christ is born.

The shepherds feared and trembled,
When lo! above the earth,
Rang out the angels chorus
That hailed the Savior’s birth.

Go, tell it on the mountain,
Over the hills and everywhere
Go, tell it on the mountain,
That Jesus Christ is born.

Down in a lowly manger
The humble Christ was born
And God sent us salvation
That blessèd Christmas morn.

Go, tell it on the mountain,
Over the hills and everywhere
Go, tell it on the mountain,
That Jesus Christ is born.

[Shepherdmoon]

Yes,so why all the fuse (about christmas being "attacked") I think Jesus would rather be rembered than making a fuss over a holiday which is all about ourselves (not Him).

[holysoldier5000]

Yes,so why all the fuse (about christmas being "attacked") I think Jesus would rather be rembered than making a fuss over a holiday which is all about ourselves (not Him).

Well I don't make Christmas all about me... and if we are making any fuse I think it should be a push to make Christmas all about him... JESUS

What child is this, who, laid to rest
On Mary's lap was sleeping
Whom angels greet with anthems sweet
While shepherds watch are keeping

This, this is Christ the king
Whom shepherds guard and angels sing
Haste, haste to bring Him laud
The babe the Son of Mary

Why lies He in such mean estate
Where ox and lamb are feeding?
Good Christian, fear, for sinners here
The silent word is pleading

This, this is Christ the king
Whom shepherds guard and angels sing
Haste, haste to bring Him laud
The babe, the Son of Mary

So bring Him incense, gold, and myrrh
Come peasant, king, to own Him
The king of kings salvation brings
Let loving hearts enthrone Him

This, this is Christ the king
Whom shepherds guard and angels sing
Haste, haste to bring Him laud
The babe, the Son of Mary.

God Bless
And Merry Christmas
~HS5K

[Roll]

Really the concern (at least as far as I'm concerned) is not about Christmas and what people are calling it but about Christian rights. If censorship of Christmas and the name of Christ in courts and schools and such goes unopposed, do you really think it's going to stop there? If we let them take this much away, it won't be long before a lot more is taken also. At this rate it won't be long (and I don't exaggerate) before someone can get thrown into prison simply for being Christian.

[Slater]

already happens. There were a few people on the east coast who were thrown in jail for teaching that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin.

[Stephen]

At this rate it won't be long (and I don't exaggerate) before someone can get thrown into prison simply for being Christian

Sad but true. We will simply be labled hatemongers. Cause, you know...we think the Bible is true.

[Slater]

hahaha... I love that. People being called haters because they follow the God of Love... and Bhudists being called peaceful when their religion teaches them that hugging a child is cruelty... and that if you love your child, you'll beat him/her.

But hey, what do you expect from human reasoning in a world like this?

Hmm... I wonder what will happen to all the money that says "In God we Trust" ...
"In gods we trust"?
"In chance we trust"?
"In absence of a God we trust"?
"In Ourselvew we trust" ... yeah, probably. People like to make themselves gods.

[rocklobster]

Didn't 1984 haveChristians in jail?

[Technomancer]

Because somebody had to do it...

[Arbre]

already happens. There were a few people on the east coast who were thrown in jail for teaching that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin.

Do you have a link to that? Free speech is protected.. but circumstances and additional actions can limit it in some scenarios.

[Nate]

I'm with Arbre, there may be some additional circumstances...

I'm not saying that it's entirely impossible that they were thrown in jail just for teaching that (I wouldn't be surprised, in fact), but it sounds like unsubstantiated rumor to me, that facts are being left out to make it sound worse than it is.

[Slater]

I'd have to do some searching around. I was shown an article on it on some site like MSN. Happened fairly recently.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=41969
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20 ... stians.htm

I think these are about the story I'm thinking about. Happened in 2002. I'll get the better stories later.

[Technomancer]

The WND article is an incredibly poor summary in that it doesn't actually bother quoting the context of the charges from either the police or the prosecutors. Enough is written though to make the charge that the protesters were arrested "merely" for speaking against homosexulity very questionable. I recall reading about this myself, and being apalled at the way some Christians were trying to spin this in order to gain sympathy. A somewhat more complete description of the actual events can be found here:

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2005/wndphilly.html

"They were not prohibited from preaching," Brancheau added. "A reasonable request was made to prevent a situation from becoming dangerous to their own safety as well as the safety of the participants."

Normally, I wouldn't post a link like this (where I am not well acquianted with the source) except in this case, where more reputable news sources have been relatively silent. Such a non-event should have garnered silence everywhere else as well except for the determination of a few to paint themselves as martyrs to cause regardless of the actual facts.

[Bobtheduck]

I actually remember that... Trying to find old news reports is a difficult undertaking, but I remember reading that off the AP, I believe...

But, yes, Christian beliefs will one by one be labeled as "intrusive" and "offensive" and made first socially detestable and then illegal. I believe that with all my heart. Of course, Christmas is not that important of an issue... The only event we were required to celebrate in the New Testament was the death and resurrection of Jesus. That, and there is no historical basis for the date of Christmas... Of course, that's not what is bugging people... It's bugging people that it IS about Jesus...

Jesus is offensive. The Bible violates the layers of human logic that have been formed by every society since the fall... There is a move to make it hatespeech to decry homosexuality, to make it hatespeech to evanglize in the US... There are bills in the works that will remove tax exemption from charitable giving, and allready the media is overwhelmed with things mocking Christians, the Bible, Jesus, God, Creationism, and other things that connect with Christianity on a smaller level. This isn't a paranoid delusion... I actually sat one day and just listened, and not only was any attempt at keeping politics out of things completely gone, but in pretty much every show I watched on several networks, they fit in

1. Direct mockery of Christian things.
2. Direct mockery of, well, my particular Political stances, to the point of calling those who hold them either brainless and less evolved or evil and dangerous...
3. Hundreds of small jabs at all the above mentioned things to the point of saturation.

I could get really offended, I guess... I could say that the majority on the media doesn't represent the majority in America... I could say that they should shut up or whatever, but really... We shouldn't be fighting this at all... We should be living, breathing, and saying what we believe whether Christianity is the national religion, or whether we're going to be put in prison and killed due to what we believe. We shouldn't fold to so-called experts that based on a mix of reality and fantasy, make an underlying worldview that little by little invalidates the Bible should one take those values as their own... Not popular opinion, nor the expert opinions and discoveries (both factual and not due to a incorrect assumptions) of even the overwhelming majority of man, nor the law should change our beliefs or our response to them. Those things should not change who we are... We should believe in what Jesus said and who he was based on our experience with him...

EDIT: Speaking of spin, (I read the entire article, BTW) the article is prefaced by talking about

WorldNetDaily is doing its best to slavishly adhere to a slanted conservative script

Don't you think that comment, in itself, probably accomplishes the same thing? It's all spin.

[Slater]

of course. That's why I'm trying to find more than one side of the story. Mass media is owned primarily by conservatives and by corporations that have close ties with the government... Hmm... BBC might be a good place to look since it is funded by its readers rather than political sources, but I've been searching it for a while now and come up with mostly stuff about gays in Egypt ._.;

[Tenshi no Ai]

I only browsed through the topic (don't feel liek reading through a whole 10 pages^^) But it is sad on how secular this holiday season is (that lousy Santa taking over!!)
Another thing though... in creative writing this one guy was ranting on how "hypocritical" we are, celebrating the birth of Jesus when "no one really knows WHEN it was and proclaimed it was on the 25th of December, where the pagan holiday was celebrated." Maybe it's true when we don't know when EXACTLY, but just because the birth/death/raigin were around on pagan holidays, doesn't exactly make US hypocrites or whatever he wrote :/ Can't remember the whole thing but it was really sad and depressing though on his ideas of it...

Oh, one more thign came to mind: if all these Christmas special say "Christmas is the time of year to give, and spend time with family and friends", it's kinda funny how they don't even mention WHY that is. :/ Grr... lousy non-denominational morals >_<

Lastly... I remember last year at Zellers where they had window stickies talking about various holidays. Know what was typical? Well, they talkign about Kwanzaa and Chunakah and what those were about, but when it came to Christmas I distinctly remember seeing words such as "togetherness" "presents" and "Santa" :/ *sigh*...

[Technomancer]

BBC might be a good place to look since it is funded by its readers rather than political sources, but I've been searching it for a while now and come up with mostly stuff about gays in Egypt ._.;

Then again, why would the BBC write anything about a fairly unremarkable protest in Philadelphia?

Bob: I am aware that the article I posted leaves something to be desired, however I would still argue that at a minimum it is a better source than WND simply by virtue of the fact that it actually reports the positions of the police and the prosecutors and explains why the protestors were arrested. The WND article chose to omit salient facts about the incident and in doing so portrayed the incident as something it was not. I would have preferred a better news source myself, but as I remarked there was nothing particularly interesting about the protest itself; the story lies in the way certain groups have chosen to describe a fairly routine incident.

[Slater]

Oh, one more thign came to mind: if all these Christmas special say "Christmas is the time of year to give, and spend time with family and friends", it's kinda funny how they don't even mention WHY that is. :/ Grr... lousy non-denominational morals >_<

Is it true that the "Spirit of Giving" comes from a Roman Pagan holiday?

[Bobtheduck]

Mass media is owned primarily by conservatives and by corporations that have close ties with the government...

That is a load... There is ONE major news organization that is primarily conservative: FOX. That's it. CNN has both conservative and liberal people, the top anchors at ABC (and its parent company, Disney) are decidedly liberal, the entertainment (with few exceptions, such as the Drew Carey show or South Park) on the biggest networks pretty much come from a liberal standpoint (South Park is a conservative standpoint on most issues (except homosexuality) that is still anti-christian, meaning that politics and faith don't go hand in hand)

EDIT: I said too much allready, so if you want to hear more on my views, PM me... I've deleted most of my response here...