Studying Judaism then having questions about christianity

[HwaRang777]

My mom recently got a recording of a mini-doc of the jewish society, faith, misc., etc. in America. And I found it to be really interesting as to their beliefs and stuff. Once getting books like "Complete Idiot's Guide to" and "Dummies Guide to" books about Judaism I have found very interesting info. And while I do not intend on switching faiths, it proved very good points about at least believing that there was a creator and this universe could not just have existed forever.

However, as I was reading one of the books, it talked about how certain religions (not by names but by #s of gods e.g. polytheisitic, monotheisitic, etc.) and when it came to the one about having three gods, it referred to christianity. Generally stating that christians believe that God has three different identities. And while I forgot some of the details, it explained how this certain part of christianity is a flaw. I do understand that the "original" Jewish religion believes that the Messiah has not yet arrived. But they prove a semi-valid point. I don't want to cause a theological debate (that's not what I had intended) but could you give me some info as to how we should worship God, and should we worship Jesus even though he is just the Son of God?

Generally what I'm trying to say about this whole topic is:

I'm confused. Please explain this to me:sweat:

[Nate]

The Trinity is always a very confusing subject...

Jesus is not just the Son of God...Jesus IS God. When you worship Christ, you are worshipping God the Father as well...and vice-versa, since they are the same. Thus, the mystery of the Trinity.

I have seen some other Christian-based religions to claim that the Trinity is a "family" and not one entity. Some also state that Jesus was a god, but not THE God. Obviously, these fall outside the realm of what we would consider to be Christianity.

But keep in mind that the Trinity is MEANT to be confusing. As mortals, we certainly cannot understand the nature of an infinite, all-powerful Being.

[Sammy Boy]

Hello .. I just wanted to add that just because we don't understand something, or even just because something is not logical - it does not mean it is false.

That there is a God infinitely more intelligent than us should not surprise us if His word speaks of things we understand very little of. That we understand very little of some of His word does not make it any less His word.

So basically .. what I'm trying to say is ... we're all fairly confused about the mystery of the Trinity and all our descriptions of what it actually is fall short of it being absolutely accurate - there simply isn't anything else like the Trinity.

[GhostontheNet]

It's really not that difficult, there is the EVER-LIVING, His Wisdom, and His Spirit - or as more frequently said, there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yeshua and the Spirit are hypostasis in the Divine mind, consisting of the former, and in the course of history becoming the later in addition in the case of Yeshua, or as the Latin translation of that Greek technical term, persona. This article at http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html provides something of a starting point in what is called "Wisdom theology", and why it actually has firm roots in ancient Judaism. However, as a taste, I give you Wisdom's speech in Proverbs 8:22-31,

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.

[Eriana]

The Trinity is always a very confusing subject...

Jesus is not just the Son of God...Jesus IS God. When you worship Christ, you are worshipping God the Father as well...and vice-versa, since they are the same. Thus, the mystery of the Trinity.

I have seen some other Christian-based religions to claim that the Trinity is a "family" and not one entity. Some also state that Jesus was a god, but not THE God. Obviously, these fall outside the realm of what we would consider to be Christianity.

But keep in mind that the Trinity is MEANT to be confusing. As mortals, we certainly cannot understand the nature of an infinite, all-powerful Being.

Totally agreed.

[Rjdreamer]

Saint patrick once used the clover as a metaphor for the trinity. Just as three leaves exist on the clover, God has three personas. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All the same person, yet all different. Also, Jesus, though the son, is also mentioned in the old testament as 'The Angel of the Lord'. Jesus wasn't created, he WAS and IS and IS TO COME. And to be perfectly frank, I don't think I would want to fully understand God, because then what kind of infinate omnicient God would he be?

[Technomancer]

While the doctrine of the trinity is quite complicated, fairly good explanation of it can be found at:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

[Slater]

lol yeah... a tough one. There are three persons, and that must have been pretty hard for the Hebrew people to understand. Their law says that there is only one True God, yet God is seen speaking with Himself in the plural in numerous places in the Torah (such as right before the flood). But Jesus clarified things enough for government work when He came to earth and started teaching

[GhostontheNet]

[quote="Slater"]lol yeah... a tough one. There are three persons, and that must have been pretty hard for the Hebrew people to understand. Their law says that there is only one True God, yet God is seen speaking with Himself in the plural in numerous places in the Torah (such as right before the flood). But Jesus clarified things enough for government work when He came to earth and started teaching ] Not so hard in light of the essential component of the Wisdom theology it draws upon though.

[ShiroiHikari]

Saint patrick once used the clover as a metaphor for the trinity. Just as three leaves exist on the clover, God has three personas. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All the same person, yet all different. Also, Jesus, though the son, is also mentioned in the old testament as 'The Angel of the Lord'. Jesus wasn't created, he WAS and IS and IS TO COME. And to be perfectly frank, I don't think I would want to fully understand God, because then what kind of infinate omnicient God would he be?

Wow, thanks for sharing that! That's a real nugget of wisdom right there. I like the clover analogy. :]

[Rocketshipper]

I think this is a good possible explanation too.

http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mc24.htm

[mitsuki lover]

Actually it was supposed to be a shamrock.
In any case the concept of the Trinity is something I myself have trouble
trying to understand as well.I don't think we'll ever be able to understand
everything when it comes to God even if we lived a billion years.

[Rjdreamer]

:lol:
Actually it was supposed to be a shamrock.

Err... arn't they the same thing?

[Yeshua-Knight]

i'm also not trying to cause some sort of theological debate, but even in the torah (the first 5 books of our new testament that were written by moses) the 3 parts of the trinity are made mention of

Gen 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
ASV

Judg 14:5-7
5 Samson went down to Timnah together with his father and mother. As they approached the vineyards of Timnah, suddenly a young lion came roaring toward him. 6 The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.
NIV


the trinity really is something that only the mind of God can comprehend, but an other way of illustrating it is to look at the parts of a person, there is the body, the mind, and the spirit (or soul if you prefer), they are all the same person, yet at the same time different

then of course there is this passage from john about Jesus


John 1:1-14
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.

6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but (came) that he might bear witness of the light.

9 There was the true light, (even the light) which lighteth every man, coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, (even) to them that believe on his name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
ASV


and the great commission as well

Matt 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
NIV

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Hello .. I just wanted to add that just because we don't understand something, or even just because something is not logical - it does not mean it is false.

that however gives the benefit of other religions. There are mistakes with Hinduism, Buddhism, Bahism, etc. To say "because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's not true". A hindu scholar could say "exactally... that is my point."

So, keep in mind that "being illogical" and "contradicting itself" are 2 separate fields. I believe Christianity is NOT illogical, and never will! God however knows how logical and simple it is to him! Maybe we won't know it

hmm... im kinda stuck myself. I'll see if I can get back to you on this matter

edit: im confused by my own post.... lemme think this through a bit more... and ask some other people around.

[GhostontheNet]

that however gives the benefit of other religions. There are mistakes with Hinduism, Buddhism, Bahism, etc. To say "because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's not true". A hindu scholar could say "exactally... that is my point."

So, keep in mind that "being illogical" and "contradicting itself" are 2 separate fields. Christianity is NOT illogical, and never will! God however knows how logical and simple it is to him!

hmm... im kinda stuck myself. I'll see if I can get back to you on this matter

Don't play at talking about logic while using the logical fallacy of guilt by association, its rather depressing.

[starstoryteller]

Anther way of looking at the trinity is water. It can be air borne gas (steam) liquid (just that water) and a solid (ice).

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Don't play at talking about logic while using the logical fallacy of guilt by association, its rather depressing.

Oh that was nice of you

I wasn't trying to...... As a Christian I believe all other religions to be false. Yes I believe all religions have some truth to an extent. But I believe that Christianity is the only path with the entire whole truth.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

well for me it is easy,,,

i have a body [physical], i have a soul [making up emotions, thought patters, hopeful dreams...] and your spirit[ contains your destiny after you die]. All in the same person but distinct!!

That isthe human trinity. God is just the same.... body [jesus], spirit[ Holy Spirit .. directs us], and Soul [God].
-----
There is no limit to worship God.... just with your whole heart.
We should praise the son aka Jesus... because he saved us and loved us so much to stay pure and die a horrible death to cover each of our sins... and we are fithly sinners and he died for ME!

~Natsumi Lam~

[Mr. SmartyPants]

sometimes I just think of this big guy... and sitting next to him is Jesus... and to his other side are some holy spirits. And occasionally they'll all be one and be all "single God" and stuff..... but I don't think that's right

[starstoryteller]

well for me it is easy,,,

i have a body [physical], i have a soul [making up emotions, thought patters, hopeful dreams...] and your spirit[ contains your destiny after you die]. All in the same person but distinct!!

That isthe human trinity. God is just the same.... body [jesus], spirit[ Holy Spirit .. directs us], and Soul [God].
-----
There is no limit to worship God.... just with your whole heart.
We should praise the son aka Jesus... because he saved us and loved us so much to stay pure and die a horrible death to cover each of our sins... and we are fithly sinners and he died for ME!

~Natsumi Lam~

you are so right! Thats how we are made in the image of God.

[starstoryteller]

sometimes I just think of this big guy... and sitting next to him is Jesus... and to his other side are some holy spirits. And occasionally they'll all be one and be all "single God" and stuff..... but I don't think that's right

The eye has not seen or herd of heaven.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

you are so right! Thats how we are made in the image of God.

yep... and praise God we are!!!! I am glad not to be made in the image of a monkey. Well maybe the blue butt monkey would be nice


~NL~

[Mr. SmartyPants]

well for me it is easy,,,

i have a body [physical], i have a soul [making up emotions, thought patters, hopeful dreams...] and your spirit[ contains your destiny after you die]. All in the same person but distinct!!

That isthe human trinity. God is just the same.... body [jesus], spirit[ Holy Spirit .. directs us], and Soul [God].
-----
There is no limit to worship God.... just with your whole heart.
We should praise the son aka Jesus... because he saved us and loved us so much to stay pure and die a horrible death to cover each of our sins... and we are fithly sinners and he died for ME!

~Natsumi Lam~

actually that makes the most sense! k sankyuu!

[uc pseudonym]

An explanation of the Trinity that I have found helpful in the past:

Some subatomic particles act differently under different circumstances. They obviously have properties of particles, but also have properties of waves in addition to quantum properties. There is only one subatomic entity, yet it has three distinct sets of properties. To ignore any one of these or to try to make them all one would be to oversimplify the facts and misrepresent the entity. I believe that the metaphor is fairly obvious.