Dating vs. Courting

[ShiroiHikari]

Arranged marriage? Please tell me you're joking.

[Slater]

YES, I hate that idea. My parrents seem to be enforcing it on me by telling me who can and can't be my gf, and no they aren't looking at Christian things. When they talk about who should be a good gf for me, they'd be more likely to base it on whether they're sexy or smart and not on whether their heart is truly with the Lord. Now I understand we all want to be reassured that we'll have good looking grandchildren, but I'm not the kind of guy who thinks that a womans hips or bra size is most important in the world (afterall, how many woman do you know over the age of 45 who aren't overweight?).

The arranged stuff may have worked in the past when the values backing it were right, but nowadays when the values are corrupt, it is a huge pain.

[Arbre]

frwl, that's a great point about the values not always being appropriate. Not all societies that had arranged marriages had their values set in the right place, either.

And when there are religious differences between parents and children it can be even worse.

I just don't think that arranged marriages would work in our society. We don't have that huge respect and sense of obligation to honor our parents' choices in our lives like that-- generally. My life, my choices is generally the thought.


***
I've heard about as many definitions for courting as I have for dating, with a HUGE overlap.


When I say "dating", I mean that there is mutual interest and that the thought of marriage has entered into both people's minds at least a bit and the dating is to get to know the person better while considering that option and just enjoying their company. To me, this kind of relationship is very exclusive... asking another person out in the meantime or entertaining thoughts of being with someone else while this relationship is here would amount to at least emotional cheating.
I think it's a lot better to be friends before jumping into dating like this. Also, it can be unnecessary and even detrimental to jump into it before marriage is a likely option.


There's also a secondary understanding of it to me that implies pairing up either in a far more casual way (not a relationship, but as a "fun" thing, a way to get to know others of the opposite gender and maybe flirt or something...) or a more serious way that basically mimics marriage in the physical closeness. I don't like either of those extremes, whether the dating is taken casually with no serious intent to follow through, or it's so close that it's inappropriate.
If there's no real mutual interest (in the person and the potential committment), why bother calling it a date?



I get very frustrated when people tell me to go out and date lots of guys. To me, it should be more serious than that. :\ I don't want to spend an evening with some guy I don't really know. Not fun.

I want to be friends with people, and if it leads to a closer friendship until finally it's at the point of being a different kind of connection and commitment... that's great. Then we can spend more time together learning more about each other's personalities and strengths and weaknesses and developing trust.

I want to know what the guy's like before he's in love with me so that I know what I can expect when the infatuation starts to fade a little later down the road, too. I want to know something about how he treats others in various situations.

And I have certain expectations. I can't allow myself to get too attached to someone I know I can't marry. So pouring out all my emotions to and looking for comfort on a regular basis from a guy who doesn't share any of the same values wouldn't be a good idea for me-- no matter how attractive other aspects of his personality or looks are.



Of course I'll take whatever circumstances God puts me through, and I have no idea what events He will use to grow me. But I still have opinions on things and how I hope for it to be in some details.


That's all my own opinions. I'm not telling anyone what's best-- just a little bit of my thoughts. =)

[Kisa]

I personally dont have a preference, whichever works, lol. (never done either so oh well)
I know people who are happy with both and unhappy with both so whichver people feel more comfortable with ^^
I think courting is cool though how its old fashioned ^^, but most likeley I would date

[Token Asian]

Well, if I loved the girl, she'd deserve the extra effort of courting, ja?

[mitsuki lover]

Overall I think if you really want a serious relationship courting is the best way to go.

[Michael]

OK, the difference between courtship and dating:


Courtship:

Sons marry.

Daughters are given in marriage.

It's that simple. The son leaves his home and searches for a wife. The daughter is under her father's care and protection. Only her father can give her away. If a guy likes her, he pursues her. If she or her father doesn't think he would make a good husband, then they can refuse him.

Dating:
Two kids going out together without her father. No parental protection for the girl.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

but then you might get stuck with someone you don't truly love.

Love is not everything....

I think love is self-seeking and my theory " better not to love at all... because the ones you decide to love end up hurting you the most!"

Other than God...

That is why i think my ideal relationship is arranged marriage... if i could go back in time i would do the arranged marriage thang.... but i was blinded by stupid love and i am disowned by his family and had pure "heck" from mine all four years of courting... i would definately never do that again and if i had the opportunity to redo it i would never do that path again...

Reasons for arranged:

1. parents see things you dont see when you are blinded by love!

2. you can be matched up with someone "perfect" for you!

3. you will be matched spiritually rather than making excuses for their Godly laziness.

4. Background check on family history illnesses... love will make excuses and false hope.

the list goes on... love is just too blinding.

too many problems break up marriages because they are not compatable and they dont want to change to become so....

~NL~

[Arbre]

Love is not everything....

I think love is self-seeking and my theory " better not to love at all... because the ones you decide to love end up hurting you the most!"

Other than God...

Love isn't self-seeking. :\
It's not just a feeling, either...
When you feel good around a person that you love, it can get confusing when the strong emotions are involved, 'cause they can be kinda blinding in some ways.
But love isn't just a feeling. Feelings eventually fade a bit. That's not the essence of love, though. It's a commitment.

That is why i think my ideal relationship is arranged marriage... if i could go back in time i would do the arranged marriage thang.... but i was blinded by stupid love and i am disowned by his family and had pure "heck" from mine all four years of courting... i would definately never do that again and if i had the opportunity to redo it i would never do that path again...

Sorry you went through that. =/ I won't say that arranged marriage would be bad for you or anyone else. That's defintiely not my place. ^^]Reasons for arranged:

1. parents see things you dont see when you are blinded by love!

2. you can be matched up with someone "perfect" for you!

3. you will be matched spiritually rather than making excuses for their Godly laziness.

4. Background check on family history illnesses... love will make excuses and false hope.
[/quote]
1. Parents can be blinded by other things too. Good intentions don't always result in good.

2. Not always. Some people completely change after you get to know them too. I think there's a risk of being with the "wrong" person no matter how you meet 'em, if the person's not relying on God for the answer.

3.I don't understand this one. If one of the msot important things while dating is to date only those who are spiritually strong, it's not all that much of a benefit for an arranged marriage in that respect, in my opinion.

4. I guess it depends what the priorities are and how much you stick to that when you meet people and consider them as a future spouse.

Personally, I don't have much against illnesses in family history. But it's important to know eventually, I think, and especially when children may be involved in the future.
But dating and courtship can bring those topics up, definitely. There just has to be trust and honesty. =)

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Personally, I don't have much against illnesses in family history. But it's important to know eventually, I think, and especially when children may be involved in the future.
But dating and courtship can bring those topics up, definitely. There just has to be trust and honesty. =)

the reason i say this is from experience. For example, my brother met this girl while he was skiing in colorado. He has talked to her ever since that day. She is beautiful, loves God with all her heart, loves cheerleading, desires higher education, loves her family, has a great family life.... but one flaw... her whole family[on both sides] has been plegued by cancer and the worst kind. For my brother to marry her would cause unneeded pain if she or his kids got cancer. If he were to just say" hey i love you get married i dont care if all your family had cancer" That would be unneeded pain and even worse if your child was suffereing. He could prevent that by keeping his heart in check...

This is one of the reasons i say this...

~Natsumi Lam~

[Ashley]

I think an essential element of love is to not only put yourself at risk for all kinds of betrayal and trust in the relationship, but also a commitment to endure pain like you just mentioned. Sure, it'd be easy if we knew the future to say "well, see you're going to die this horrible, tragic death and I'm going to be in a lot of pain so we might as well not even go there" But that's so horribly selfish! Love isn't about the way YOU feel, it's about sharing life with someone else. Strengthening one another as Christians. Love, to me, is a commitment to be one with someone, through good times but ESPECIALLY through the bad times, because that's when they need your strength and love the most. I know for a fact I wouldn't let the fact that my beloved has a terminal illness (or even the chance of one) stop me from seeing them, since well, we all have to die eventually anyway. To chose not to love so you don't get hurt is missing the whole point of love.

Plus, I think it reflects a deep lack of trust in God to think that way. It's like your saying, "I don't care if this girl is my perfect match, God, you're going to take her away too soon and that's just not fair." or "I don't trust you enough to protect her and ONLY let her die when it's YOUR time for her." I love my boyfriend a lot, but I don't shield him from doing anything phyiscal or driving a car or whatever because there's a chance he might get hurt.

[Conner999]

While it probably has it's place, Courtship seems a bit overprotective and old fashoned to me for the following reasons. (This is just my opinion, how it relates to me. I'm not saying courtship is the worst option for everyone, because I don't have all of the facts. I am going from what I know, and writing this so I may learn new things about the subject.)


1. I think it makes getting to know the person much harder than dating**(Read below, definition of dating. [ctrl+f "*dating*"])**. If they are never allowed any one-on-one time, it becomes virtually impossible to see the private side of the other person's personality, and they would never have a chance to talk about personal things. (Unless they use the internet or something.. But that just isn't the same.) I can't think of anything specific about myself, but I am sure there is a difference between my personality out in public, and my personality when I am with a smaller group of people, or just by myself. Especially when it comes to how well I would know and trust the other people I am with.


2. If you cannot trust your child to date without doing something stupid, there is a problem that needs to be delt with, because being tempted and giving into temtation when you're alone with another person is NOT the only negative affect of that type of behavior! So if that IS a problem, neither courtship nor dating would be a very wise choise until you overcome the spiritual weakness and get right with God.


3. It seems to put too much unneccesary stress on the two that are courting, in terms of permanent commitment. What if the couple end up deciding the relationship wouldn't work out for some reason? It sounds like it would be an unpleasant ordeal to end the courtship, and possibly move on to another at some point in the future. If they "can't" get out of the relationship, then they might end up making a big mistake.



For me, giving into that kind of temptation is about as likely as me commiting suicide. (Which will never happen. :p) I doubt I'd even be tempted anyway. So at least for myself, dating seems an acceptable option. I know there are many others who feel the same way. Though they might not compare it to suicide.. lol


"And duh, no kidding pre-marital sex is wrong. LOL Who in the heck would thnk that it is right?"

Ignorant people. :/ It's all over in today's society. The internet, movies, tellivision, books... Heck, even videogames. If they don't hear the truth, how will they know the difference? It's a pretty sad situation. :/


I was talking to Kokoro Daisuke, and we came up with this rough explanation:

There are two types of *dating*, and there is Courtship.

Courtship = Strict guidlines, and the parents (or a chaperone) are directly involved in everything.

Good dating = The parents are involved, but the couple are allowed some freedom to get to know eachother.

Bad dating = (What most people see as dating.) The parents are not involved, or very very loosely involved, and the children are not very responsible.


There is also a good and bad type of dating for adults, where the parents aren't directly involved anyway (at the time of the dating.) An example of bad dating:


Bad adult dating = Parents have not talked to their child about the responisbilities of dating or the things they would have discussed if they were in the process of good dating. The result is the child forming their own incorrect ideas about how things are supposed to be done.




"Listen to my friend (who was courted) and she will tell you that there parents would sit the two of them down on a couch and have them talk about everthing. Just get to know the other. Get to know the stuff that really matters. How you see this, what you believe about that"

I believe those things should be done anyway with dating. The parents should know the person their child is interested in, and the children can learn from the parent's experience in marriage.


"her whole family[on both sides] has been plegued by cancer and the worst kind. For my brother to marry her would cause unneeded pain if she or his kids got cancer. If he were to just say" hey i love you get married i dont care if all your family had cancer" That would be unneeded pain and even worse if your child was suffereing. He could prevent that by keeping his heart in check..."

You don't think GOD, the one who created you, your brother, the girl and her family, and the entire universe, has any power over cancer, or any sickness of the body? If it is God's will that they should be married, He will support them if they put their trust in Him. They need to find out what God has planned for them. If they are not supposed to be together, then he will not lead them in the wrong direction.

WE as mortal humans DO NOT know better than God, so how can you say we need to make decisions that are not based on God and his love? As for all of those things you said about LOVE... Being self seeking, blinding, ect ect.. The Bible says GOD IS LOVE. You are pretty much saying that God himself doesn't know what he's doing, that he fills us with "excuses and false hope", that He blinds us to what is right... I don't mean to insult you, but that is completely the opposite of what the Bible, God's word, says. Please, look at what the Bible says before you do anything else, and pray. God will not lie to you.




...Alright, that's all for now... 5 am = time to sleep. >_>

[Slater]

you made some very good points, but... please... lose the font color x.X

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Yeah, great stuff Connor! I'm all for 'good dating', not that I have a girlfriend or ever have but God will provide in time. Yes, like Frwl said, please change the font colour. Its black for a reason.

[Fireproof]

Eh. I sort of date at the moment. However, the girl I'm dating is also a good friend who I respect greatly, so it's kind of a different scenario from what other people do. As far as courting... Eh. I wouldn't want to say "I'd someday like to marry your daughter." to her parents. Not for a long time.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

But that's so horribly selfish! Love isn't about the way YOU feel, it's about sharing life with someone else. .

---> on the other hand it is considering the reality in life. If you can prevent your child from getting an uncurable illness, prevent it.... if there is 80% chance that your child will get cancer because of her side. Dont make your child suffer all in the name of "love". You can share your life with someone and avoid those who might plegue your child with an illness. Wouldnt you avoid someone who have a severe spiritual illness, ie spiritual dead and or christians who are saved but become authist. Would you not marry them because their new found distain for God might leak to your child? Same as physical illness... Similarly if he or she was a christian but a known child rapist... would you not marry them .. or would you say, hey i love them and my child has to live with the consequences even of my mommy or dad could have avoided such a mental illness. Cancer is like a rapist, but it kills you physically not [sometimes] mentally both can kill you emotionally.

Love, to me, is a commitment to be one with someone, through good times but ESPECIALLY through the bad times, because that's when they need your strength and love the most. I know for a fact I wouldn't let the fact that my beloved has a terminal illness (or even the chance of one) stop me from seeing them, since well, we all have to die eventually anyway. To chose not to love so you don't get hurt is missing the whole point of love.

--> consider avoiding the bad times. What if you could avoid those times? If someone goes headstrong into a confrontion with the for-knowledge of its outcome and others suffer, they are selfish and fully at fault. Kids and yourself will suffer. I have known families [very close to me] that have had cancer. Its just physically, emotionally and mentally and sometimes spiritually recks you. Now, can you explain to your your child, you got cancer even though i knew to avoid it and i just walked with my eyes fully open and "um, sorry about that Tommy, but i just loved mommy". Or does love with a person make ok? There are so many christians, pick another and avoid the consequences.

Plus, I think it reflects a deep lack of trust in God to think that way. It's like your saying, "I don't care if this girl is my perfect match, God, you're going to take her away too soon and that's just not fair." or "I don't trust you enough to protect her and ONLY let her die when it's YOUR time for her." I love my boyfriend a lot, but I don't shield him from doing anything phyiscal or driving a car or whatever because there's a chance he might get hurt.

---> God has give you and me the brains to not walk into situations. Like i said before, " oh he is a rapist and he might change. I will just trust in God that all the past information and character will change when we are married because love can make everything ok." No sorry that doesnt work. You can have all the faith you want that God will change him for being a rapist, but history repeats itself and to just walk into something and "hoping and praying that life changes" It doesnt work like that unless something miraculous happens. SO, God has given us the brains to say" hum her mom has cancer and her uncle, aunt, dad and sister have cancer.... well physical history has proven that she will have it." So now with this information, " if you choose her and she gets cancer, there is no point of wining[sp?] and crying to God about your emotional and mental pain, you walked into it with all the red flags and still chose that path. So deal with your pain and hopefully the child with not get it because your are " in love".

~Natsumi Lam~

[Joshua Christopher]

Not something that I am at all concerned about.

I don't really think about trying to find/waiting for someone. I need to worry about living, maturing, surviving, and trying to be a good Christian. I see no reason to worry about a wife. If it just so happens that someone takes some interest in me, that's nice, but as for now I'm just going to worry about living.

And as for all of you young-people, this point in your life does not need to be devoted to having a girlfriend/boyfriend. Grow up, do all of your school-thingies, go to college or whatever, get a nice job and all of that. After that, then think about your soul mate.

And please don't think you absolutely have to be married. Sometimes it is better to be alone. Most likely I will, but that's not at all a negative thing. Whatever God decides for me is His will.

[Nate]

What if you don't have children? My aunt on my mom's side decided not to have kids because she has a medical condition that could have been passed down to their children...so, her and my uncle decided that not having kids was the best way to do it.

If you REALLY want kids, you could also ADOPT. That way, you can marry the woman/man you love, not pass down a terminal illness, AND provide a loving home for a kid who has been abandoned.

As far as your spirituality remarks, that's different. God SPECIFICALLY tells us NOT to marry a non-believer, I'd look up the verse but I don't feel like it right now. Suffice to say, it says, "Do not yoke yourself with unbelievers." However, I don't remember a single verse that says, "Do not yoke yourself with someone physically ill."

Love is also not self-serving. It sounds pretty darn self-serving to me to say, "Well, I don't want to have emotional pain because of this person's illness, so even though it will break their heart, I won't have anything to do with them because I don't want to have pain."

ust walk into something and "hoping and praying that life changes" It doesnt work like that unless something miraculous happens.

Oh yeah, because we all know God doesn't perform miracles, nope, not at all, can't think of a single miracle God has ever done. [/sarcasm]

[~Natsumi Lam~]

God SPECIFICALLY tells us NOT to marry a non-believer, I'd look up the verse but I don't feel like it right now. Suffice to say, it says, "Do not yoke yourself with unbelievers." However, I don't remember a single verse that says, "Do not yoke yourself with someone physically ill."

If you look at my quote i said ,"christians who are saved but become authist" and "he or she was a christian but a known child rapist", dont worry been a PK all my life i know how to cover my butt with that verse

Oh yeah, because we all know God doesn't perform miracles, nope, not at all, can't think of a single miracle God has ever done. [/sarcasm]

ANd if he doesnt, what you going to tell your family, " oh i loved her and i had faith she woundnt get hurt even though God gave me the brains to watch for stuff.... refer to my analogy about a rapist .... God gave you brains for a purpose... you can have all the faith in world but if God doesnt will it to happen it wont. SO why didnt God will her parents to be healed and her aunts and uncles and sister with all their faith.... not his will.

~Natsumi Lam~

[ShiroiHikari]

...What in the world are you guys talking about? What does all this stuff have to do with dating?

[Joshua Christopher]

...What in the world are you guys talking about? What does all this stuff have to do with dating?

It has to do with not worrying about it.

[Nate]

If you look at my quote i said ,"christians who are saved but become authist" and "he or she was a christian but a known child rapist", dont worry been a PK all my life i know how to cover my butt with that verse

Then I'll remind you:

13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. - Romans 7:13-14

You can't tell the future, so saying that you shouldn't marry someone because they might become atheist is a pretty lame excuse. And if they become atheist, Paul states that you are to remain married to them.

He didn't say, "You should get divorced, because the children would suffer emotional trauma, so therefore it would be better for you to leave him." No, he said to remain together and that God would sanctify the marriage and protect the children.

refer to my analogy about a rapist

That's a mental illness, not a physical illness. Therefore it does not contradict my point that the Bible never says "Do not yoke yourself with someone with a physical illness."

God can change the hearts of men, and if a man is truly devoted to the Lord, he can change. I'm not saying to trust a rapist who, the day after being released from jail says, "I'm a changed man, you can trust me!" That's why there's dating, so you can get to know the person before you marry them.

[Conner999]

"please... lose the font color x.X" ~ frwl
"Yes, like Frwl said, please change the font colour. Its black for a reason." ~ Warrior 4 Jesus

Sorry if it bothers you. It is much easier for me to read than normal thin black text on a gray background, surrounded by lots of other black colored things. (Plus it looks nice ^_^) I'll change it a bit. How is this? Should I make it darker?

"Similarly if he or she was a christian but a known child rapist... would you not marry them .. or would you say, hey i love them and my child has to live with the consequences even of my mommy or dad could have avoided such a mental illness." ~ ~Natsumi Lam~

I SERIOUSLY doubt God would want you to marry someone who will rape your children or pervert their ideas. So yeah, if you don't listen to what God wants for you and you do what you want, you're not making a very smart decision.


"Cancer is like a rapist, but it kills you physically not [sometimes] mentally both can kill you emotionally." ~ ~Natsumi Lam~

But both can be healed by God.


"--> consider avoiding the bad times. What if you could avoid those times?" ~ ~Natsumi Lam~

Or you could say, what if you never put any stress on the muscles in your right arm? What would happen? Your right arm would become weak. If you never used it, the muscles would atrophy and become unsuable.

Tribulation is like that in the way that it strengthens you. If you never enounter any opposition or trouble, you will not have had to go through pain, but you would be very weak. And if something finally DID happen, you wouldn't be able to handle it.


"" oh he is a rapist and he might change. I will just trust in God that all the past information and character will change when we are married because love can make everything ok." ~ ~Natsumi Lam~

"" oh i loved her and i had faith she woundnt get hurt even though God gave me the brains to watch for stuff.... refer to my analogy about a rapist .... God gave you brains for a purpose..." ~ ~Natsumi Lam~


Again, God would not have you marry someone who is not good for you. You're making these points on the assumption that what God says does not matter, and you have to fully rely on yourself, and OWN decsisions.




I'm repeating this because you might have missed it in my last post:

"her whole family[on both sides] has been plegued by cancer and the worst kind. For my brother to marry her would cause unneeded pain if she or his kids got cancer. If he were to just say" hey i love you get married i dont care if all your family had cancer" That would be unneeded pain and even worse if your child was suffereing. He could prevent that by keeping his heart in check..." ~ ~Natsumi Lam~

You don't think GOD, the one who created you, your brother, the girl and her family, and the entire universe, has any power over cancer, or any sickness of the body? If it is God's will that they should be married, He will support them if they put their trust in Him. They need to find out what God has planned for them. If they are not supposed to be together, then he will not lead them in the wrong direction.

WE as mortal humans DO NOT know better than God, so how can you say we need to make decisions that are not based on God and his love? As for all of those things you said about LOVE... Being self seeking, blinding, ect ect.. The Bible says GOD IS LOVE. Think about that. God, is love. You are pretty much saying that God himself doesn't know what he's doing, that he fills us with "excuses and false hope", that He blinds us to what is right... I don't mean to insult you, but that is completely the opposite of what the Bible, God's word, says. Please, look at what the Bible says before you do anything else, and pray. God will not lie to you.



"SO why didnt God will her parents to be healed and her aunts and uncles and sister with all their faith.... not his will."

Not God's will for them to be healed... uhg.. I want to talk about this, but I'll probably just offend you, so I'm just going to skip this.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

You can't tell the future, so saying that you shouldn't marry someone because they might become atheist is a pretty lame excuse. And if they become atheist, Paul states that you are to remain married to them.

Ok read it again.... i said they were already an atheist.... read before you jump.... just like i said they were a christian for both the athiest and the rapist.... read before you jump. --> "Wouldnt you avoid someone who have a severe spiritual illness, ie spiritual dead and or christians who are saved but become authist. "


and besides i said "and/or being an atheist" had nothing to do with deing spiritually dead. Those who are saved are never spiritually dead.

That's a mental illness, not a physical illness. Therefore it does not contradict my point that the Bible never says "Do not yoke yourself with someone with a physical illness."

rapist and [i consider the some as most [rare exception]] have a physical distortion of the brain either by birth or by choice to change their mental process,,,, so it many cases it is also physical along with spiritual and emotional. Google in on studies about rapists. I have spent time studying because i dispise it so much. And let me cover my butt before you jump again... some rapists become rapists based on spiritual reasons.. for example God speaks of " generational curses" and let me again point out... first hand experience. My great great grandfather was a molester, my great grandfather was, my grandfather.... God told my father that the generational cures was gone starting with him. So some are spirtual. Some are just sadistic, and some are mental. So you can not leave out the physical ie mental at a whim....

~NL~

[Nate]

Ok read it again.... i said they were already an atheist.... read before you jump.... just like i said they were a christian for both the athiest and the rapist.... read before you jump. --> "Wouldnt you avoid someone who have a severe spiritual illness, ie spiritual dead and or christians who are saved but become authist. "

You're confusing me.

If a person is an atheist, we are not to marry them, plain and simple, the Bible explicitly states this. There should be no confusion over that, no matter how much you love them, you are NOT to marry a nonbeliever.

If they BECOME an atheist, it doesn't matter, the Bible states that you are to remain with them if you are married.
If your mate loses faith BEFORE you get married, though, you are to immediately end the relationship.

Is this what you were trying to say? I hardly see how that fits into your argument.

rapist and [i consider the some as most [rare exception]] have a physical distortion of the brain either by birth or by choice to change their mental process,,,,

Pretty much ANY mental condition is caused by an abnormality in the brain. So if you want to go that route, mental retardation is a physical disability. To me, if it is a condition that affects a person's brain that is NOT caused by external stimuli (such as being bashed on the head by a club), it's a mental disability, NOT a physical one.

But perhaps shooraijin, our resident doctor, could clarify (assuming he sees this).

Finally, to ultimately counter you, you cannot say that you should avoid marrying someone because of their physical or mental health. May I quote from the Bible?

When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD." - Hosea 1:2

Now think about this. God told Hosea, "Go find the absolute nastiest, most immoral prostitute you can find in the city, and marry her."

Hosea, if he had been like you, could've said, "No way! She's probably got twenty STDs by now! Not only that, she's adulterous! I can't marry a woman like that, I could end up catching a disease! Not only that, but what if one of her diseases got passed on to one of our kids?! No thank you!"

God tells people to do crazy things sometimes. Physical things should NEVER keep you from being with the one you love.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Or you could say, what if you never put any stress on the muscles in your right arm? What would happen? Your right arm would become weak. If you never used it, the muscles would atrophy and become unsuable.

----> Now why would you life a 600 lb weight?
There is a difference in using the muscle and overdueing it....

Marriage : using the muscle.
A very poor choice: marriage to someone who 99% will get cancer..
[if you choose to marry and hey are that 1% happens great!, your blessed]

Tribulation is like that in the way that it strengthens you. If you never enounter any opposition or trouble, you will not have had to go through pain, but you would be very weak. And if something finally DID happen, you wouldn't be able to handle it.

SO why dont you go walk to the ghettos and endure tribulation so you can learn to fight better. Too much of anything is never good thang..... i guess other than God.

Again, God would not have you marry someone who is not good for you. You're making these points on the assumption that what God says does not matter, and you have to fully rely on yourself, and OWN decsisions.

So tell me , how do you know for a fact if someone is the person you are supposed to marry, beside ffrom God telling you? Thats why God gave you a brain, to tell intellegently who would be the wisest decision. God does matter that is my point ... he gave you the brain and the wisdom. Wisdom is taking your intellegence and knowing how to use it. So take the intelligence and say hey,,, this person has had a family full of cancer... humm it would be WISE not to do it. If you choose to do it. Live with the consequences. And if you dont live with the concequences. Besides it is not like they are the only person for you. If you move on and they die.... " mr or mrs right will pop up again" meaning their is more than one mr or mrs right.

You don't think GOD, the one who created you, your brother, the girl and her family, and the entire universe, has any power over cancer, or any sickness of the body? If it is God's will that they should be married, He will support them if they put their trust in Him. They need to find out what God has planned for them. If they are not supposed to be together, then he will not lead them in the wrong direction.

I find this funny.... the flavor of all my posts was God in the picture and God has given you the brain..... God DOES infactically[sp] have the power. If God told them to be married... do it. If God is silent about it. Use your brain. And again i ask, how do you know who you are supposed to marry unless God says. You have to make the choice. Chose with your brain and you heart... not just saying " I love her".

WE as mortal humans DO NOT know better than God, so how can you say we need to make decisions that are not based on God and his love?

Quote me, where did i say decisions dont need to be based on God and his love... when did i say about God's love other than the first quote. And yes, we dont know better than God. So tell me, why are you on the computer [God gave you the free will] why arent you using your free will to go on a missions trip right now and help save people? God gave us the will to make choices based on our brain... so choose wisely and with what aligns with the Bible and all will be good. And again i ask... how do you know who you are supposed to marry? Free will dictates that choice. And rarely does God say , " Marry him or her" that happened with my dad and mom. But waht about all my other family.... they made the choice to marry whom they want. God will show you the red flags. Ie biblical "generational curses" if you see a history of molestors and drunkards in a family that overweighs the good generational attributes, avoid unless told otherwise.

As for all of those things you said about LOVE... Being self seeking, blinding, ect ect.. The Bible says GOD IS LOVE. Think about that. God, is love. You are pretty much saying that God himself doesn't know what he's doing, that he fills us with "excuses and false hope", that He blinds us to what is right... I don't mean to insult you, but that is completely the opposite of what the Bible, God's word, says.

God is love, but man created the flaw. Man is selfish , God is not. Man is "lead by his desires and drawn away", God is not. Therefore, God's love and mans love are not the same. If they were the same, fathers would not rape their children, they would love them the correct way. Note :God also says " Guard your hearts" and "Be watchful".

Not God's will for them to be healed... uhg.. I want to talk about this, but I'll probably just offend you, so I'm just going to skip this

.

Here you go..... God desires all to go to heaven and be saved... our will [God given] draws us away. Now cancer was never in the Garden of Eden. And now it is in the world. Because of us. Now answer this, an entire church was praying for my teacher to be healed, yes i know the verse " nothing out of selfish ambition". But we were not being selfish, i know myself for one. I wanted her to be healed for her own welbeing. Now, why was she not healed, she had the spiritual backing ," two or more were gathered together in one mind", she was " brought to the elders and was anointed with oil and prayed for", we had faith out the ying yang. Now why wasnt she healed? God had better plans. Plans to "My brothern count it all joy when you fall into various trials, know that the testing of your faith produces patients" . Now Gods WILL was not to heal her, there were other reasons died, for the betterment of the gosple in this case. So God is the ultimate knower, if you hear to marry that person, DO SO, if you have to guess do it wisely!

~NL~

[Conner999]

"----> Now why would you life a 600 lb weight?
There is a difference in using the muscle and overdueing it...."

"SO why dont you go walk to the ghettos and endure tribulation so you can learn to fight better. Too much of anything is never good thang..."

I'm using one extreme, and you're using another. No, you shoudln't start fights with strangers to get stronger, but you cannot avoid all pain whatsoever either.


Random fact: The world record for bench pressing is over 1,000lbs.


"So tell me , how do you know for a fact if someone is the person you are supposed to marry, beside ffrom God telling you?"

There is no way to be 100% certain unless God tells you.


"why arent you using your free will to go on a missions trip right now and help save people?"

I don't see what tha has to do with anything, but okay...
I would love to go on mission trips.. But right now I don't have nearly enough money to do so. (All of the money I have aquired over the course of my entire life is not enough to pay for a single trip.)


"God's love and mans love are not the same. If they were the same, fathers would not rape their children, they would love them the correct way."

Fathers who rape their children have nothing to do with real love. If that's the way you see things, I am sorry. No father who really loves their child would do such a thing.


"where did i say decisions dont need to be based on God and his love"

When you said love is fallable and cannot be used to make real decisions.

"love will make excuses and false hope."
" and my theory "better not to love at all""
"I think love is self-seeking"
"the list goes on... love is just too blinding."


"If God told them to be married... do it."
"So God is the ultimate knower, if you hear to marry that person, DO SO"

That's what I've been saying. If you know something is from God, then nothing should stop you.



"Now answer this, an entire church was praying for my teacher to be healed,"
"I wanted her to be healed for her own welbeing. Now, why was she not healed, she had the spiritual backing ," two or more were gathered together in one mind""
"we had faith out the ying yang. Now why wasnt she healed?"

I guess that depends on your teacher. If she had doubt, or for some other reason.

[Slater]

wow... people might think me the least likely to say this, but this thread is getting more and more off topic really fast. The arguing is making everything really confusing... could we like get back to dating vs. courting?

[~Natsumi Lam~]

I'm using one extreme, and you're using another. No, you shoudln't start fights with strangers to get stronger, but you cannot avoid all pain whatsoever either.

Again quote me[exact quote]... when did i say go start a fight... i just said "go there." DOnt worry they will be looking for you.

Random fact: The world record for bench pressing is over 1,000lbs

The question is can you? Thought not... can a normal person? Thought not.

There is no way to be 100% certain unless God tells you

Proves my point. If you hear God marry her, even if her family does have cancer. If he didnt tell you, he left you with tools... you brain. So use it and be wise. Wisdom is knowing how to use the intelligence you have. So you know it is intelligent to neither marry a family that has drunkards and rapists and cancerious people so dont let your heart rule you, use the brain that is what it is there for.

I don't see what tha has to do with anything, but okay...
I would love to go on mission trips.. But right now I don't have nearly enough money to do so. (All of the money I have aquired over the course of my entire life is not enough to pay for a single trip

That doesnt matter how much you have now right? God will provide the money if you are to go, in one way or another. My point of the missions is this: God gave us free will...... you choose to sit and type or you choose to go. You choose to marry or you choose to not. For example, you can choose to cast a demon out of someone,, but if God doesnt want it to happen, " there is a time and place for everything" than it will not be done. God controls the ultimate but you choose your steps. He controls your death you control how you rule your life[to a point]. So it is up to you how you use your free will, you have to live with the consequences. Might as well avoid, if can be avoided, horrible consequences.

Fathers who rape their children have nothing to do with real love. If that's the way you see things, I am sorry. No father who really loves their child would do such a thing.[/font][/color][/SIZE]

Man, what gave you the idea that i said it was real love, reread it and it states that if mans love were perfect like Gods a father would not " love" their child in the incorrect way... it would never be an issue if man had God's love.

When you said love is fallable and cannot be used to make real decisions.

now where did i say that that love had to do with God's love? And the quote below does not justify your case because it is based on human love. Does Gods love make excuses...... nope. Is God selfseeking? Nope. Is Gods love too binding .... nope. That quote even have a sentence shortly before or right after [NOT INCLUDING GODS Love].

"love will make excuses and false hope."
" and my theory "better not to love at all""
"I think love is self-seeking"
"the list goes on... love is just too blinding."

Ok, now where does it say "dont need to be based on God and his love"... Last time i checked it doesnt say anything about God nor his love in that quote and.... i am speaking of HUMAN love... that is why i said that God's love is perfect and human love is flawed. And yes i know that was my quote.

That's what I've been saying. If you know something is from God, then nothing should stop you.

Glad we agree.

I guess that depends on your teacher. If she had doubt, or for some other reason

Can God work past her doubt? Can God only heal if you are in the right mind? And what about a whole group of people with complete faith, is her one thought of doubt greater? And if so, is her doubt greater than Gods plan or even his Will? So basically He is limited by our weakness ::wink::

::10 hit combo::

In conclusion... if you are confronted with this issue. And you choose to marry them [without Gods word but with your free will] and you know their medical history and illnesses .... live with the consequences because you will have no room to complain when your family is laidened with cancer. You shouldnt go complaining to God about it not being fair. You chose the path, live with it. Like i said, human love is flawed... dont base your marital decisions on heart and love alone... there is more too it... unless God states otherwise.

As FAR AS DATING VS COURTING: from the very first post.... i would choose arranged because dating is for fun and fooling around with no commitment. Courting is with the intent to marry,,, so if you are intending to marry [LONG BEFORE YOUR HEART IS RAPPED UP] use the brain that God gave you and find out what they are ALLLLL about. Because after love is interjected you have blinders on and they are not all selfless.

~Natsumi Lam~

[Josh Fisher]

well I have just finished with Dating it left me heart broken so in my OPINION they are both good things but you really should wait till your ready, or else end up like ME! heartbroken and alone there I have said my piece