Taking care of our inheritance.

[Hoshika]

This really bothers me from time to time especially in the summer when the heat traps in a lot of air pollutants. When the hole in the ozone layer was first discovered every news group in town seemed to be all over it and there was this huge recycling campaign and there even was an Earth Day placed on the calendar in the U.S. But now that all the hype has died down it seems people forgot about the huge hole in the sky caused by pollution. And while that is a disturbing ploblem does anyone else find the heavy oders in the air sicking or find it seriously annoying when people just throw their trash on the ground or their half eatin chilli dogs in a recycle bin?

Anyway, just in case some were wondering what i am talking about concerning the ozone hole I'll post a few websites that go over the issue in more detail. Plus there is always your local library and Google.

http://www.theozonehole.com/ozonehole2003.htm

and

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-10-03-ozone_x.htm

[Arnobius]

Best be careful. This could be interpreted as a "political" thread...

[Ashley]

There's nothing wrong with desiring to take care of the earth and nature, etc. It's when you start placing more value on animals or plants than humanity that things get out of whack. Equal is a touchy place, but yeah...just keep it rather friendly and this thread can stay open. Otherwise it'll meet a tragically young death.

[Yojimbo]

Also take into account that it's not just because people pollute. For example Los Angeles is in the middle of a basin, so smog tends to settle in there. Nothing you can do about that really thousands of people work in factories there and no one wants people to be unemployed. And no one wants to spend millions of dollars to bring super giant vacuum's to suck the smog out now.

And recycling it's a nice thing...but does it really do anything? I can't see how. Can, plastic, and paper companies are going to produce the same amount of everything recycled or not. They probably produce more even.

[Hoshika]

There's nothing wrong with desiring to take care of the earth and nature, etc. It's when you start placing more value on animals or plants than humanity that things get out of whack. Equal is a touchy place, but yeah...just keep it rather friendly and this thread can stay open. Otherwise it'll meet a tragically young death.

o_O
Really not trying to stir people up, this thread was started to discuss pollution awarenss not start a politcal uprising or debate.

I agree, people can take things too far. I don't think animals and plants are equal to human beings but we depend on them as part of our environment so we should take care of them. It's gross but even roaches play a part in the cycle of life... (just not in my house! any bug coming in there must have death wish).
Even nature can get out of control but being the lords and masters of the Earth it's our job to try and tame it. It would be great if we could control weather. That way huge storms don't turn entire cities into a trash heap. -_-]And recycling it's a nice thing...but does it really do anything? I can't see how. Can, plastic, and paper companies are going to produce the same amount of everything recycled or not. They probably produce more even.[/quote]

Yes, I wonder about that too myself. You know you can't recycle already recycled things for some reason....
It would be great for things like paper cups, toilet paper, straws and things people tend to throw away a lot to be made from recycled material to cut down on how much trash we generate. What I can't get with is recycling disposable baby diapers. Um.... that seems kinda nasty if you ask me. Anyone got any info on that? I don't feel like doing a search or hiking to the library in this heat.

[Arnobius]

Didn't mean to imply you were going to. Just thought I'd bring up the warning so people didn't come out swinging and get it locked. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.

[Hoshika]

LOL don't worry. I've seem more trivial things turn into all out battles and serious games of dirty dozens. :/
I just wanted to make the purpose of why I would start such a thread clear to promote the peace.

edit: Um, my brain doesn't seem to be up to speed so I am trying to correct obvious errors -_-;

[Technomancer]

Also take into account that it's not just because people pollute. For example Los Angeles is in the middle of a basin, so smog tends to settle in there. Nothing you can do about that really thousands of people work in factories there and no one wants people to be unemployed. And no one wants to spend millions of dollars to bring super giant vacuum's to suck the smog out now.

There are things that can be done if the political will is there. Cars and trucks for example are really one of the major contributors to smog. Effective legislation regarding emissions, for example can push technological development towards cleaner veichles. Proper planning can emphasize mass transit and also work towards housing development that is more conducive to the same. Similar efforts in other industries can acieve similar results.

And recycling it's a nice thing...but does it really do anything? I can't see how. Can, plastic, and paper companies are going to produce the same amount of everything recycled or not. They probably produce more even.

Yes, it can. From a public policy perspective it certainly reduces landfill demands as well as many of the other requirements of the manufacturing process itself. Companies may not necessarily produce wasteful products if there are strong incentives not to. Some countries, such as Japan, require manufacturers to take responsibility for recycling their products or for their packaging. Doing so will ensure that companies design less wasteful, and more recylable products. Other approaches, such as industrial ecology, also show some promise as a practical method of reducing wastes.

[waffo_chick1]

the debate is still on how much global warming effects us along with the ozone. It may not be a huge concern for many people but it is still debated on college campuses at whatnot. Um baby diapers? sounds like fun...

[waffo_chick1]

Germany has a car restriction to cut down on pollution. You have to have your car checked out every so often to make sure that it isn't causing too much pollution or whatever.

[Technomancer]

the debate is still on how much global warming effects us along with the ozone. It may not be a huge concern for many people but it is still debated on college campuses at whatnot. Um baby diapers? sounds like fun...

Not really, the debate amongst climate scientists is over, and the consensus is massively in favour of the idea that anthropogenic emissions are causing a rise in global temperatures. The only real issue now is how much and how soon.

[Arnobius]

[quote="Hoshika"]LOL don't worry. I've seem more trivial things turn into all out battles and serious games of dirty dozens. :/
I just wanted to make the purpose of why I would start such a thread clear to promote the peace. ]
That's fine. I think I'll keep out because judging from some posts I've seen, *I'LL* go political-- and I don't want to wreck the thread. (I've had bad experiences with environmentalism). Have fun though.

[waffo_chick1]

yeah, I was referring to the debate on how much and when. As you said, no one is saying this isn't an issue.

[Kaligraphic]

We know that the Earth undergoes long-term climatic shifts - after all, a thousand years ago, Greenland was prime farming territory. (And I'm not talking cold-weather crops, either.)

And recycling isn't intended to reduce, say, the number of aluminum cans manufactured - it is intended to reduce the amount of aluminum we have to pull out of the Earth.

[waffo_chick1]

I also read that they have found fossolized palm trees in the North Pole, or somthing like that. I could be wrong about that though....

[Arnobius]

I also read that they have found fossolized palm trees in the North Pole, or somthing like that. I could be wrong about that though....

South Pole (OK, I'll jump in occasionally). It looks like it was a tropical area once.

[the_lizardqueen]

I have to admit that I have been mulling over the idea of starting a thread like this. But I've put it off due to fear of starting an out of control debate and being interpreted as a troll. I personally have a very strong interest in preserving the environment, I recycle what I can and I try to take transit or walk whenever it's possible. I'm always trying to find new ways to live in a more environmentally friendly way. It actually hurts me to see green spaces being trashed and I'm often discouraged by the fact that environmentalism and Christianity don't always seem to mesh. But I definitely can understand why many Christians would be turned off by the extreme environmentalists who value animals and the earth over humans (although I do believe in the humane treatment of animals, but I won't go there).

I personally feel that God has entrusted the earth and all of it's natural resources to us, to use wisely. We should be good stewards of what we've been given. Yes, we should certainly use the resources given to us for the benefit of mankind. But it doesn't seem entirely right for us to be using the resources to the extent that the planet is unable to keep up. Sometimes it just seems..unnatural..the way that modern human beings function. Right now, one of my pet peeves is packaging. Pretty much everything that we buy comes in several layers of packaging, most of which has to go in the garbage. Natural resources were used up in the process of creating the packaging, to produce an object of limited usefulness that will end up sitting in a landfill for goodness knows how long without biodegrading. Hmm, I don't know if that rant really had a point..sorry.

Anyways, I just wish modern humans could look at the big picture and see the benefits of reusing our resources and working with the enviroment, sorta more like the way that the natural world works. When a predator kills off all of it's prey, it tends to die off soon after, whereas humans often simply move on to the next option. And it seems such a shame to be needlessly destroying the awesome creation that God has crafted (although the creator is definitely far more important that the creation). By preserving what we have, we're benefitting the future generations. Yes, one could argue that the rapture would make the preservation of nature a moot point. But it could very well be numerous centuries off, or tomorrow, maybe it's better to be safe than sorry and perhaps we should plan for the possible future . I guess in the end, being a Christian environmentalist is a matter of priorities and coming at it from the right perspective.

I have to admit, I have yet to do the serious research and find the facts to back up my standpoint. At this point, I guess I'm speaking from the heart. I do wish though that everyone would make some practical baby steps towards helping our environment, by recycling a pop can, or walking several blocks to the store instead of driving. But I'm pretty much repeating what's already been said numerous times, aren't I?

Also, I hope no one minds me linking to an interesting letter from a Christian environmentalist:
http://www.mcc.org/respub/occasional/131.html

[Arnobius]

Well, Christian environmentalism is a different experience than mine, where the environmentalists I knew were self professed Earth worshippers, and rather insulting to whoever had questions...

Looks like this thread will be different than my expectations...

[Technomancer]

We know that the Earth undergoes long-term climatic shifts - after all, a thousand years ago, Greenland was prime farming territory. (And I'm not talking cold-weather crops, either.)

No one is saying that the Earth doesn't]
I also read that they have found fossolized palm trees in the North Pole, or somthing like that. I could be wrong about that though....[/quote]

Yes, there are fossils found in the polar region that indicate a much warmer climate at one period. However, this does not mean that the poles were once tropical, or even temperate. You have to remember the effects of continental drift. The North American continent for example, was much further south many millions of years ago.

[waffo_chick1]

Very true. some Christian scientists believe that the fossils came from before the flood so the continental drift would make more sense than saying that it was once tropical.

[Fsiphskilm]

I THR

[Hoshika]

South Pole (OK, I'll jump in occasionally). It looks like it was a tropical area once.

Glad you weren't lost!

Well, Christian environmentalism is a different experience than mine, where the environmentalists I knew were self professed Earth worshippers, and rather insulting to whoever had questions...

Looks like this thread will be different than my expectations...

Yep! Yep! No dirt whorshipers here so it should be all good unless a real live troll decides to grace this thread. :p

I have to admit that I have been mulling over the idea of starting a thread like this. But I've put it off due to fear of starting an out of control debate and being interpreted as a troll. I personally have a very strong interest in preserving the environment, I recycle what I can and I try to take transit or walk whenever it's possible. I'm always trying to find new ways to live in a more environmentally friendly way. It actually hurts me to see green spaces being trashed and I'm often discouraged by the fact that environmentalism and Christianity don't always seem to mesh. But I definitely can understand why many Christians would be turned off by the extreme environmentalists who value animals and the earth over humans (although I do believe in the humane treatment of animals, but I won't go there).

I personally feel that God has entrusted the earth and all of it's natural resources to us, to use wisely. We should be good stewards of what we've been given. Yes, we should certainly use the resources given to us for the benefit of mankind. But it doesn't seem entirely right for us to be using the resources to the extent that the planet is unable to keep up. Sometimes it just seems..unnatural..the way that modern human beings function. Right now, one of my pet peeves is packaging. Pretty much everything that we buy comes in several layers of packaging, most of which has to go in the garbage. Natural resources were used up in the process of creating the packaging, to produce an object of limited usefulness that will end up sitting in a landfill for goodness knows how long without biodegrading. Hmm, I don't know if that rant really had a point..sorry.

Anyways, I just wish modern humans could look at the big picture and see the benefits of reusing our resources and working with the enviroment, sorta more like the way that the natural world works. When a predator kills off all of it's prey, it tends to die off soon after, whereas humans often simply move on to the next option. And it seems such a shame to be needlessly destroying the awesome creation that God has crafted (although the creator is definitely far more important that the creation). By preserving what we have, we're benefitting the future generations. Yes, one could argue that the rapture would make the preservation of nature a moot point. But it could very well be numerous centuries off, or tomorrow, maybe it's better to be safe than sorry and perhaps we should plan for the possible future . I guess in the end, being a Christian environmentalist is a matter of priorities and coming at it from the right perspective.

I have to admit, I have yet to do the serious research and find the facts to back up my standpoint. At this point, I guess I'm speaking from the heart. I do wish though that everyone would make some practical baby steps towards helping our environment, by recycling a pop can, or walking several blocks to the store instead of driving. But I'm pretty much repeating what's already been said numerous times, aren't I?

Yes, I totally agree with everything you said. I too would take a bus or something more often if the service was reliable and so on and so forth.

It really irritates me that stuff is over packaged. It's partly to prevent damage during shipping and a lot to do with keeping the merchise theift proof... but seriously how many theives sit and open things in the store then run out with them? People just lift it and run so I don't see the need to have all this plastic and junk surrounding the product I buy. -_-]I THREW away 20+ pounds of plastic bottles (over 300 bottles) becasue i could NOT find anywhere to recycle them. I kept them in a huge black industrial sized garbage bag in my living room for 4 months.

People need to start passing recycling bills, I LOVE recycling, but Not when I can't find a freaken place to drop that shnuff off.

i made a new word... shnuff.. heheh.[/QUOTE]

Good grief, at least you can take pop bottles back to the store where I live! Man, what a waist. I totally understand how you feel. The trash wear I live just gets burned. They have filters and everything on the smoke stacks so it's rather clean and the have the junk on a belt with the giant magnets to pick out the metal stuff so it can be recylced. ( I know cuz I visited the place too many times and actually found myself amoungst the mountains of garbage that was to be burned.... and man! It stinks like nothing else!)

[Arnobius]

Good grief, at least you can take pop bottles back to the store where I live! Man, what a waist. I totally understand how you feel. The trash wear I live just gets burned. They have filters and everything on the smoke stacks so it's rather clean and the have the junk on a belt with the giant magnets to pick out the metal stuff so it can be recylced. ( I know cuz I visited the place too many times and actually found myself amoungst the mountains of garbage that was to be burned.... and man! It stinks like nothing else!)

Out in CA, they don't have deposits like that where you can return to the store. We have a CRV (California Redemption Value-- I think). But since you have to find a recycling center to take them back to, it winds up being nothing more than an annoying tax and the cans/bottles more often than not wind up getting tossed.

I don't have a problem with recycling in theory, but out here they make it so inconvenient to do so that many people just pitch stuff in the trash...

Out here, I think trash burning is not legal. Landfills are the major issue.

[Technomancer]

I THREW away 20+ pounds of plastic bottles (over 300 bottles) becasue i could NOT find anywhere to recycle them. I kept them in a huge black industrial sized garbage bag in my living room for 4 months.

People need to start passing recycling bills, I LOVE recycling, but Not when I can't find a freaken place to drop that shnuff off.

i made a new word... shnuff.. heheh.

In most areas up here, we have municipal recycling programs (i.e. blue box). One truck comes by to pick up your trash, and another one comes to pick up your recyclables, which are left in your blue box.

Those interested in the global warming issue might also be interested in the following webpage.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change

[Hoshika]

Out in CA, they don't have deposits like that where you can return to the store. We have a CRV (California Redemption Value-- I think). But since you have to find a recycling center to take them back to, it winds up being nothing more than an annoying tax and the cans/bottles more often than not wind up getting tossed.

I don't have a problem with recycling in theory, but out here they make it so inconvenient to do so that many people just pitch stuff in the trash...

Out here, I think trash burning is not legal. Landfills are the major issue.

Ah, so that's how it works.... that sucks.

Actually burning trash is not legal where I live. For instance you can't burn trash in you yard or anywhere else (thank God), but you can toss in the can for weekly pick up to be burned in the incinerator. That's good. They have filters and stuff to keep things clean so... LET IT BURN!

[Arnobius]

Ah, so that's how it works.... that sucks.

Actually burning trash is not legal where I live. For instance you can't burn trash in you yard or anywhere else (thank God), but you can toss in the can for weekly pick up to be burned in the incinerator. That's good. They have filters and stuff to keep things clean so... LET IT BURN!

CA environmentalists tend to want 0% emissions, hence no burning at all, I believe. Their ideas are doubtlessly not mainstream, but they are common enough where I live that I tend to have issues with the idea of environmentalism, whether it's fair or not.

If you don't mind my asking a new environmental question: What do you all think about the recent debate among environmentalist about supporting nuclear power as a clean source of energy?

[Technomancer]

I'm fully behind the use of nuclear power, at least within a Canadian context. I'm well familiar with the CANDU design, which is very safe and quite flexible. With the presence of the Canadian shield, we also have an excellent disposal site where there is virtually no chance of geological disutbance (i.e. impermeable igneous rock that has been geologically stable for the past billion years). That and the abundance of uranium and thorium within Canada make nuclear power an excellent choice.

[Hoshika]

AH, it sounds like where you live if someone accidently spilled their soda on the street they'd get hung up. o_o that's kinda scary.

Nuclear power? :/
It would be cool if the stuff wasn't toxic or if the chance of a melt-down was 0% cause if the nuclear plant blows up it can take a whole city or two with it and other places are more self contained and at worst there is a slim chance of a block getting burned down. Seeing how people can do make mistakes (or at the worst just be utterly neglectful) I would be kind of concerned if I lived near a nuclear plant, perhaps more like paranoid there would be another Chernobyl insodent:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=9814

[Arnobius]

AH, it sounds like where you live if someone accidently spilled their soda on the street they'd get hung up. o_o that's kinda scary.

Nuclear power? :/
It would be cool if the stuff wasn't toxic or if the chance of a melt-down was 0% cause if the nuclear plant blows up it can take a whole city or two with it and other places are more self contained and at worst there is a slim chance of a block getting burned down. Seeing how people can do make mistakes (or at the worst just be utterly neglectful) I would be kind of concerned if I lived near a nuclear plant, perhaps more like paranoid there would be another Chernobyl insodent:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=9814

Yeah, if I sound anti-environmentalist, it's because my experience with radical environmentalists has been bad, using scare tactics and personal attacks and not rational arguments. You Christian Environmentalists seem to be different and I'm willing to give you a fair hearing though, and some of it I can agree with.

With Nukes, the issue I findf is that for the most part the US ones are very safe. Three Mile Island really wasn't a disaster at all, and since then plants were built safer. France and Japan use nuclear for over 50% of their plants-- and there are no reports

With Cherynobyl, it was a case of gross negligence, not an accident as I recall.

I'll get off my soap box now. Hope this didn't come out sounding rude. I didn't mean for it to

[Technomancer]

With Cherynobyl, it was a case of gross negligence, not an accident as I recall.

It was also an extraordinarily bad design. For a start, the reactor had no containment building, which would have prevented most of the radiation from escaping into the environment. The RMBK design also suffers from a number of other potential flaws, a major one is the lack of dynamic stability. In most western reactors, a higher reactor temperature drives down the output power level, which in turn brings down the temperature. This is not foolproof since there is a lag, but it is still very important. However, this was not the case in Chernobyl-style reactors, which mean they are more susceptible to run-away reactions. Also unlike western reactors, the RMBK design employs a moderator that is potentially combustible (graphite), and has limited safety systems, especially for dealing with a loss-of-coolant accident.