God can forgive anything, right?

[JediSonic]

I've always been taught that there is no truely unforgivable sin; god can do all things! You might recall just before Jesus died, He said "father forgive them; they know not what they do". If He can forgive people who just finished torturing him to death, surely He can forgive a repentant christian who accidentally had what might have been a blasphemous thought!

[Fsiphskilm]

I use to

[skynes]

I've always been taught that there is no truely unforgivable sin; god can do all things! You might recall just before Jesus died, He said "father forgive them; they know not what they do". If He can forgive people who just finished torturing him to death, surely He can forgive a repentant christian who accidentally had what might have been a blasphemous thought!

Jesus himself said that there is ONE unforgiveable sin.

a Christian having a 'blasphemous' thought hasn't committed anything unforgiveable. Having it slip into mind isn't sin, dwelling on it would be, but its not unforgiveable

I don't presume to speak for mobilesuitpilot, but I'm thinking she means dying after rejecting Him. As in not accepting Him before your earthly life ends. I do not believe she is saying that if you have ever in your life rejected Him, then you are condemned.

It doesn't say anything in the passage about dying having rejected Christ, where does this come from?

[kazekami]

Well I was taught that as well. I was told that the only sin that is unforgivable is blasphamy of the Holy Spirit. There are a few interpretations of what this means. But the one I was taught was that this meant that before death you did not accept Jesus in your heart. If you rejected him up until your last moment it was unforgivable. Anyone can be saved as long as they are breathing and there heart is beating. Once you die its over. God gives us plenty of oppritunities in life to accept him so if someone stubbornly refuses and never accepts before death then they have commited an unfogivable sin. I believe that no one is truely lost unless they die without Christ in there heart.

[CobaltAngel]

a Christian having a 'blasphemous' thought hasn't committed anything unforgiveable. Having it slip into mind isn't sin, dwelling on it would be, but its not unforgiveable

I've dwelled on it for like a week, but not out of hatred for God (of course) out of fear of losing him. I don't want to sin, but I'm so scared of lsoing him. What if he's already gone?

[termyt]

It doesn't say anything in the passage about dying having rejected Christ, where does this come from?

I don't know what you are asking. Are you speaking of a specific passage (if so, which one)?

There are several passages that talk about the need to believe/accept Christ and a few that talk about denying Him.

Matt 10:32-33: Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

I John 2:23: Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father]I've dwelled on it for like a week, but not out of hatred for God (of course) out of fear of losing him. I don't want to sin, but I'm so scared of lsoing him. What if he's already gone?[/QUOTE]

Now, I should also say that doubt is not the same as denial. Doubt is a question one asks when seeking the truth. Denial is a statement of belief.

He hasn't left you. He will never do that. No amount of doubt will ever cause Him to turn His back on you. Don't be afraid of the question or you will never find the answer. Go. Seek the answer, but do it honestly and with an open mind. Seek God and you will find Him.

Continue to ask questions - here, while reading the Bible, at church, at home, and of friends. Feel free to ask me anything. I'd love to help.

[EireWolf]

I've dwelled on it for like a week, but not out of hatred for God (of course) out of fear of losing him. I don't want to sin, but I'm so scared of lsoing him. What if he's already gone?

"If we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."

(2 Timothy 2:13)

[HisaishiFan]

Ash's PERSONAL 2 CENTS here--I believe you can only lose your salvation if you continually ignore God for a long period of time.

* * *

If you truly desire to walk with the Lord, if you really want to be saved, then I do not think God would allow you to screw yourself up somehow by not asking for forgiveness correctly or something like that.

Coby, if you were not hungering after the Lord, you wouldn't be worrying about this. It is like Ash's youth pastor said: if you are concerned about a faith, then you are on the right path. (Remember the man who asked Jesus to help his daughter: he said, Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief! It isn't uncommon to have belief and unbelief warring within us.)

Think of how lovely God is in the whole of scripture. When did he ever refuse to make a way for those who called on him? Even people who didn't really know him, who just responded to the little bit of light that God had given them - like Rahab, for example - are counted in Hebrews as great people of faith. Rahab trusted what she knew about God and hid the spies from Israel in Jericho's walls. She saved their lives. And God counted that as rightiousness. Think about David, how horribily and repeatedly he sinned against God: murder, adultery. . . yet David cried out to God for forgiveness and longed to be like Him. God God David a man after His own heart.

God literally moved heaven and earth to save you personally, just like the one lamb that was lost: the Shephard left the fold of 100 sheep and searched and searched till he found the lost lamb. Or like the woman who lost a coin, and searched and searched until it was found, then celebrated in her house with all her friends. God would not pay so great a price to dangle salvation like a carrot before a donkey, capriciously jerking it away. I agree with Ash: the only unforgiveable sin is to reject Christ, whether it is a lifetime of rejecting, or tasting a little of what God has to offer and then turning away completely and never coming back.

I guess I'm responding so passionately because this was something that worried me greatly when I was a little kid. I kept thinking that I had done one the thing that could separate me from the love of God. I guess I heard one too many fire and brimstone sermons as a child combined with a couple of bad circumstances and my particular religious upbringing where it was stressed that salavation could be lost. But what I know today is this: I believe God is telling me the truth about who he is in his Word - it is His kindness that brings us to repentence.

I think Eugene Peterson put it the best in a book that he wrote many years ago: Following Christ is a long obedience in the same direction, away from the world and toward the City of God.

[EireWolf]

Well said, HisaishiFan. And likewise, I believe that to fall away from Christ (if that is possible -- I don't know), it would take a long disobedience, continually and willfully walking away from Christ.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I've dwelled on it for like a week, but not out of hatred for God (of course) out of fear of losing him. I don't want to sin, but I'm so scared of lsoing him. What if he's already gone?

God is not a tyrant sitting up in heaven waiting to abandon you at the slightest possible thing you do wrong; He is the most loving being in the universe, He loves you so much he sent his son to die for you, do you really think he'd give you up that easily? Don't let the Enemy trick you. As long as you continue to seek God, he will be there for you. The next time you start thinking thoughts like that, rebuke them. They are nothing more than mere lies.

[sukatto]

Hi guys!

I'm new to the forums, but not Christology or matters of faith in the issues being discussed here, so I'd like to share a few things I hope will bless and bring a sense of confidence to those struggling with the "unforgivable" sin, and add to some the great points others have stated already.

It's important to know first off that there is nothing we can say or do as a mere act that can sever our relationship with Christ and would not be forgiven upon asking. Be assured of this promise, and keep in mind Paul referred to himself as being "The chief of all sinners", present tense in his writing, not past.

The only thing that is unforgivable is to crucify Christ all over again by denying Him and His promises AFTER you've tasted them and have known them to be true.

And this is because there is nothing more God can do for us if we do that. Christ was His best and ultimate sacrifice that cannot be added to or repeated.

Keep in mind we can utterly ignore the Holy Spirit in seasons of our lives, -and we will-, as it is our human nature to sin and fall into distraction from time to time. Heck, we can even cuss God out for this and that in our foolish moments. He doesn't stop being our spiritual Father because of momentary acts of rebellion or stupidity.

It's not a salvation matter, but one of maturity and the need to seek forgiveness and repent.

Only if we, as Christians, who've tasted and KNOW the truth then decide to reject God's promises in favor of instant satisfaction and gratification that is offered by the things of this world, do we dance with danger.

To put it simply, if you've sinned, no matter what you've done, but still care about what God thinks and are grieved by hurting Him with your choice, guess what, you're not in danger.

You can take that promise to the bank.

And again, I'm not talking about a seasonal time of being disobedient or spiritually lazy, but a flat out choice to elevate something in your heart that replaces God altogether and then make the choice to continually walk in that choice, despite knowing the truth.

Let me approach it from this angle and remind us that the Bible is about one thing ultimately, and that is to bring those lost into relationship with Christ.

Everything centers around relationship. Christ's whole mission was to bring the human race back into relationship with the Father, through Him, and Him alone. So yes, you MUST accept Jesus Himself to come into relationship with the Father. That is a non negotiable. To say there is another way would diminish the act of the Cross.

As a kid did I do everything right? I'd like to say yes, but the truth is noooo-way, jose! Do my kids do everything right in their lives?

Nope.

But did my dad stop being my dad just because I could be a jerk now and then and flat out do the opposite of what he asked of me?

No way.

Am I only a father to my children when they are doing right?

Again, no way.

No matter what they do, I'm still dad. Even if they walk away from me and reject me, I'm still their father. In their lives, they may have forgotten me, and by their own choice they have walked out of the relationship. As much as I'd like to continue one, it's a mutual thing that must be pursued by both sides.

So it is with God and us. He'll never leave us nor forsake us. Not now, not ever. For Him to do so would undermine His own sacrifice. If we walk away from Him, there's nothing He can do for us other than call to us through the Holy Spirit, the Church, and our brothers and sisters and pray on our behalf to return our hearts to Him.

We're still creatures of free will, and He will let us choose. And if we choose to reject Him after knowing Him in favor of whatever delusion we allow ourselves to be mastered by, then it's our choice to walk out on Him. Never the other way around. And that is the unforgivable sin.

But suppose we do that and one day come back to our senses and seek forgiveness, then what happens?

Three words...

The Prodigal Son.

The joy of that father to find that which was lost was immeasurable. This is God's heart in the matter, and testifies to His eternal and unchanging character. If we have breath to draw upon and call upon Him in faith, He will rush down to us in loving embrace. A love only God could have down to perfection.

But again, and settle this in your minds, hearts and spirits, that as long as we are aware and care for our Lord Jesus and are mindful of His love for us, we are in no risk of severing our relationship with Him. There are no powers of this world, in heaven or the deepest pits of hell that can seperate us from the love of Christ.

And love covers a multitude of sins. And we better believe Jesus practiced and still practices what He preached back then, lest He be made a liar.

If we are able to come to Him for forgiveness with a sincere heart, we are forgiven. Period.

There may be a natural consequence still forthcoming for our sin, as the law of the harvest teaches us, but our relationship is eternally secure. This is the whole point of what Christ taught and needs us to be confident of today.

So fear not!

If you care enough to post your concerns about what God's thinking, it means you care and are quite safe from any wrath He's saved up for those who've rejected Him.

Hope I articulated this well enough. If not, I'll try to put it in other ways so it's clear.

In Him,

sukatto

[Hephzibah]

O_O
You're so new here, and yet you've already caused my brain to overload
V_V I think I'm going to have to put off reading that entire post until I've had a caffeine dose or something... or maybe sugar... yeah, I like sugar

Anyway Don't worry Coby! I'm sure alot (if not all) of us have gone through that stage. Personally, I think that it helps us trust Him even more than before!

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Sukatto, awesome post! Thanks for the encouragement and God Bless!

[Hephzibah]

Well, I'm back and well stocked up on sugar!! .. .well, not really, but honey atleast. Honey = yummy

anyway, I've read the post and I have to echo what W4J said. VERY VERY VERY STINKING WELL DONE! Strewth, you took what everyone was saying, expanded it, improved it and wrapped it up in a nice pretty package with a bow on top. Points to sukatto!!

[sukatto]

Thanks, but I give the props to Jesus on that. =)

I read the posts and the Holy Spirit had so much for me to say, I had hoped it came out okay. Glad it did.

Cheers,

sukatto

[CobaltAngel]

Beautiful post, I agree. I've been looking at websites about it and everything else, but I still feel hopeless. I should have just had faith from the beginning instead of letting it get me all upset. I know I can't do anything without God and that my life is hopeless without him... that's why I'm so afriad. I don't feel hope anymore. I haven't eatten almost anything for a week and a half. My dad says to just have faith because I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. But... I don't know. That's easier said than done, I guess.

[CobaltAngel]

ahhh im so scared i def crossed the line i just thought of something so terrible i cant tell if it was on purpose or satan im so scared ahhh im going to go insane i want to be free but ack god can never forgive me ahhh this is the valley of the shadow of death

[skynes]

Don't totally trust your feelings Coby, sometimes they lie, like now for example.

Go read Romans 8. Especially the last two verses.

Coby you are a righteous redeemed Child of God. Chosen by God to follow Him. An alien to the world, a co-heir with Christ, the list just goes on.

------------------------------

The passage I was referring to was in Matt 12. In short it goes like this

v 22: Jesus casts out demon
v 24: Pharisees accuse Him of being in league with Satan.
v 26: Jesus says that Satan does not fight against himself.
v 31: Jesus says blaspheming the Holy Ghost is unforgiveable.
v 35: Jesus says that people are known by their fruits. Good produces Good etc.

From what the passage is about, I think the unforgiveable sin is to glorify Satan for an act of God when you know full well that it was God who did it!

I don't think it's possible for Christians to commit it. Jesus was talking to unsaved Pharisees when he said this, not His followers. Not once in scripture is this sin attributed to a believer, but there are bucket-loads of scriptures on how our sins are washed away, no longer existing, how we're Justified with Christ, how we have Christ's righteousness, how we are in Christ.

[CobaltAngel]

Don't totally trust your feelings Coby, sometimes they lie, like now for example.

Go read Romans 8. Especially the last two verses.

Coby you are a righteous redeemed Child of God. Chosen by God to follow Him. An alien to the world, a co-heir with Christ, the list just goes on.

------------------------------

The passage I was referring to was in Matt 12. In short it goes like this

v 22: Jesus casts out demon
v 24: Pharisees accuse Him of being in league with Satan.
v 26: Jesus says that Satan does not fight against himself.
v 31: Jesus says blaspheming the Holy Ghost is unforgiveable.
v 35: Jesus says that people are known by their fruits. Good produces Good etc.

From what the passage is about, I think the unforgiveable sin is to glorify Satan for an act of God when you know full well that it was God who did it!

I don't think it's possible for Christians to commit it. Jesus was talking to unsaved Pharisees when he said this, not His followers. Not once in scripture is this sin attributed to a believer, but there are bucket-loads of scriptures on how our sins are washed away, no longer existing, how we're Justified with Christ, how we have Christ's righteousness, how we are in Christ.

I LET myself think it thought whether is was my thought or not. I feel really screwed. Please pray for me... thank you for responding. God bless you

[EireWolf]

Satan is attacking you, Coby. Even if the thought came from you, which I doubt... God can and will forgive you. You are obviously deeply concerned about this, so you are not willfully disobeying God here. Satan wants you to believe that you are worthless and that God will not forgive you -- DON'T BELIEVE IT!!

Like Skynes said, you are a redeemed child of God. Nothing can separate you from His love. Even if you don't have faith right now (which happens to all of us), TRUST Him. Trust that He will never leave you nor forsake you. He is faithful, and He loves you no matter what.

I am praying for you, sister.

[kazekami]

I agree. Satan likes to mess with believers. He only is intrested in what he doesn't have. But you don't have to worry you have done nothing that is unforgivable. I'll pray for you as well.

[termyt]

I think you are putting yourself under way too much stress, Coby. Try to relax. God is trying to teach you something here. Open your heart and listen for His voice in all of the thoughts running around in your head.

Increase your quite time. Prayer, meditation, reading scripture, and perhaps doing a little fasting could help you focus on your true feelings and God's will.

[CobaltAngel]

My dad says that he thinks that it not only has to be something spoken against the Holy Spirit, it also has to be said with real hate in your heart, and intent of turning people away from God.

[Kaligraphic]

Your salvation was purchased with the blood of Jesus. That blood atoned for all sin - it cannot be so easily outweighed that a single thought can overcome it. (Or as it was once told to me, "Who are you to think you can sin a sin more powerful than the blood of Jesus?")

[sukatto]

Hey Cobalt,

My friend, what you are wrestling with is not of God. You have to understand that. As some others have pointed out, it sounds like you are under spiritual attack by the enemy. It's during these times when we cannot rely on what seems "right" to us or makes "sense" through our distorted and imperfect spiritual vision. This is why the written word is so very important to fall back upon when the seeds of doubt are being taken advantage of by Satan in our earthly walk.

The Bible IS the written, living authority on God, His Son, His Promises and His Truths. Sometimes that can sound like simple platitudes, but its simplicity and truthfulness are right on the mark.

Listen, my young friend, we must not only read the Bible, but let the Bible read us and see ourselves in the context Christ himself defined us. God plays no favorites, has no special kids He loves more than others or would bend the rules for, or enforce harder on others.

Whatever you may have done, thought, said, it makes no difference.

If you raped a small child, blew up a building, called Jesus every filthy degrading thing in the world that you could think of, urinated in the wine for communion, the truth remains that if you ask forgiveness with a sincere heart, you WILL be forgiven.

God's entire character and promise lies on the line of that. He's not about to make some exception just for you, or single you out for your sin or doubt when the Bible is filled with so many examples of human failure. My examples above may seem extreme to some, and maybe not so extreme to some, as not everyone is aware of what some of us keep private.

Again, this is only a grace, love and compassion that God Himself can fully demonstrate.

When Peter denied Christ...
when David sinned with Bathsheba...
when Moses was denied entry into the Promised Land...
when Jonah ran...
when Isaiah hid...
when Samson sinned...
when any of them hand picked by God for big things failed, doubted, rebelled, lied, denied or cheated...

not once did God EVER leave or deny them.

This is the grace and love that comes from Him, and what we as His heirs are entitled to.

Not because we say so, but because He did.

Remember the Apostle Paul? He once referred to Himself as the "Chief of all Sinners", not before his calling on the road to Damascus, but AFTER, when he was built up and given the charge of bringing the Good News to the gentiles as an apostle.

The point is, as long as we wear this flesh, as Ephesians 6 points out, we will always be susceptible to the challenges of Satan, and sinful ways of our own flesh.

That's why we need to put on our Spiritual Armor, as Paul called it. We're not supposed to be immune from doubt or fear or temptations or even sin.

If we were, then there'd be no conscious role on our parts.

This is the whole point of why Christ came as a man, to live as a man and die for us, having been tempted in every conceivable way by Satan, yet overcame those things for us.

Christ was tempted. He thought about Satan's words. He considered them and rejected them. But He was still God and could have executed any one of the things Satan encouraged Him to do, such as calling down a legion of angels to take Him back up to heaven and throw off the whole plan for man.

Is a slave above his master?

If Jesus wasn't above temptation, then neither are we. We then are expected to bear these troublesome things.

Being tempted or doubting is not sinful. God expects us to fail time to time. He knows the truth of our capabilities far better than we do.

I don't know you, but you are a spiritual brother crying out in pain, so I must tell you the truth. You are being deceived by an enemy, a father of lies who wishes to take advantage of your doubts and fears and exploit them for his own twisted purposes.

Don't take it.

You don't have much faith right now, you may say?

Don't need much. If all you got is faith the size of a mustard seed, guess what, it's more than enough to trigger the response from the One who loves you beyond all human comprehension and understanding.

You are going through a dark valley right now, nothing more. It will not destroy you.

God is with you. He is for you. He is faithful when you are not. He is strong when you are weak. This is His promise to all of us.

Remember the man who looked back upon his life and only saw one set of footprints in the sand during the dark times of his life, and thought God had left him?

God had to tell him that He hadn't left, but in fact had carried him during those times.

The man had seen things incorrectly, as you do now, Cobaltangel.

We don't get good to get God, we get God to get good.

You need to trust this, even if only a little. God will meet you wherever you are and walk you through it.

You have my prayers for strength and recognition of the trap Satan had laid for you. So be calm, be still. If you feel it too overwhelming to pray or read your word, just start by praising God. God inhabits the praises of His people. Fill your mind with the things of God, and take your eyes off your own doubts and fears for the time being.

Though that process, God will begin to bring clarity to you, so when you look upon them again you can see them as they really are.

In His Love,

sukatto

[CobaltAngel]

I did thoroughly read all your posts... my response is short because I'm at school and shouldn't even be on this site... <.< >.>

My dad says the same thing as you guys... its not about --blasphemy--, really, its about Satan trying to make me feel worthless. But over the weekend because I was so afriad of losing God I kind of lost my head and willingly thought things I should not have thought. I was walking in the woods, trying to cool off, and suddenly I started to think something along the lines of...

"This is so scarey. Everyone has differant views of what blasphemy is. What if I said it out loud just to see if it has to be spoken? Not to turn anyone away, just to see... but I can't. But what if I did? Oh, this is so scarey..."

Isn't there a verse in the bible that says thinking about something is as bad as doing it?

Edit: my dad also called me the spiritual version of a hypocondriac (sp?). lol;;

[Hephzibah]

Its in relation to lust, but yes I would say that thinking about something you know you shouldn't be thinking about, and taking pleasure in it would be bad. You can't stop certain thoughts from entering you're head, its how you handle them that matters.

As 2 Corinthians 10:5 states:
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
One good way I've found of doing this is when a thought enters your head that isn't glorifying to God, is to rebuke it in the name of Jesus and command it to leave (and start thinking about God instead; perhaps asking God to cover your mind in the blood of Jesus is a good idea too).
Don't beat yourself up over thoughts, Coby. Yes, they can be a stronghold in someones life (i am a testimony to this), but no matter how big the problem seems, God can tear these down and renew your mind!

Rom. 12:2 : Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 4: 22-24 : You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

edit: btw, I have found that the 'renewing of the mind' does take time. It took me several years to 'kick my thought habits' (though I strongly suspect it would have been alot shorter, if I had allowed God to work in me ), and even now there are a few struggles, but thank the Lord (literally!!!) they are manageable and easily dealt with through His power.

[termyt]

Isn't there a verse in the bible that says thinking about something is as bad as doing it?

Sort of. The passage (Matt 5:28 - part of the Sermon on the Mount) speaks directly of adultery (looking lustfully = committing adultery in your heart), but I believe it applies to everything. However, we must be careful on how we define what we are talking about when we say "thinking."

What truly matters is what is in our hearts. What we think and what we do can, at times, run contrary to the true feelings of our hearts. This is part of our sinful nature. We have all been corrupted by sin and this has a devastating effect on our spiritual lives.

Thankfully, through the unimaginable sacrifice of our Lord, we do not need to worry about our sins. They've been washed away. I fear you are focusing way too much on your sinful side and that is preventing you from nurturing your holy side - the part of you that communes with God.

I have committed a great number of sins in my life. More sins then I can count. The weight of these sins could burry me under a mountain larger than Everest - if I dwelt on them. Jesus has offered to take that burden from me. I accepted that offer, and He carried that mountain of sin when He walked to His death. (Why do you think that cross was so heavy for Him that He needed Simon's help to carry it?)

When Christ rose from the dead, I died to my sins. My burden is now light. Accept His offer, give your sins to Christ and worry about them no more. When those thoughts enter your head, put them aside. Know that you do not need to dwell on them or worry about them – they do not own you, they do not control you. You are free from their grasp. Christ owns you now and you are His and His alone.

Take heart, Coby. Your salvation is not in jeopardy. You just need to accept the forgiveness Christ has offered you and forgive yourself. Use these thoughts to learn your own weaknesses; learn where you need to improve and strengthen yourself. Truly, everything we know of love, we learned from the Father. If your family still loves you and we still love you, do you really think God may not love you?

[CobaltAngel]

But this is THE WORST SIN. The unforgivable sin. And I'm so scared of commiting it I've thought about commiting it. That's scary! Are you sure you have to actaully commit it?

[kazekami]

If Jesus resides in your heart and you repent for your sins you are fine. Having those thoughts can be forgiven. Go and pray. If you are so troubled by this pray and ask God to forgive you. Maybe find so kind of penance you can do. But always remember to pray. Don't be afraid. For the Lord will not abandon you. I know someone who fell away from God. They became a pagan priestess and rejected and blasphemed christ. They practiced witchcraft and led people astray. Then something happened and this person turned her life around. She left that life behind and came back to Christ. She asked God to forgive her and is now leading a Christian life. Didn't Jesus tell us a story about a sheperd who had lost a sheep, and of a prodigal son? Sometimes people slip in their fath. It can be for a moment or for years. But God will not abandon what is his. He will welcome all who love him. And I can twll that you love him. Don't be afrad. Go and pray.