Anime/Manga/Oekaki -- what's the dif?
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Anime/Manga/Oekaki -- what's the dif?
Could someone please clear me up on the difference between Anime, Manga, and Oekaki? I know what Hentai means but other than that I can't defrentiate.. Thanks!
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JediSonic - Posts: 1359
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Certainly.
Anime is Japanese animation. It generaly falls into a particular drawing style - heavy details, fairly realistic human forms, large eyes, small mouths... but it doesn't have to fit into any particular style, and one can find many diffrent styles of anime out there. How it differs form North American style animation is that... the storylines are usually a bit more serious, the sight gags tend to be a bit diffrent (aka. in anime, when a character gets mad, they might have flames rise up behind them, when confused, they get one big sweat drop on the sides of their heads... but I've never seen to my recollection an anime character *like an American cartoon character* walk off a cliff and fall down only when they realize there is no ground underneath them). Anime is made for a wide variety of audiences, not just children.
Manga is Japanese comics. Most animes are based upon mangas. I believe the term comes from "irresponsible pictures"...something like that. I don't know Japanese, so I am not certain. Anyway, Manga is simply the term for Japanese comics.
Oekaki is a type of online drawing board. It works like a computer painter program. You go to an oekaki board to draw with your mouse (or if you are lucky and have a tablet. Personally, I use a mouse). The painting board is also a message board where you and others can leave commentary about your posted picture. I love oekaki!
Anime is Japanese animation. It generaly falls into a particular drawing style - heavy details, fairly realistic human forms, large eyes, small mouths... but it doesn't have to fit into any particular style, and one can find many diffrent styles of anime out there. How it differs form North American style animation is that... the storylines are usually a bit more serious, the sight gags tend to be a bit diffrent (aka. in anime, when a character gets mad, they might have flames rise up behind them, when confused, they get one big sweat drop on the sides of their heads... but I've never seen to my recollection an anime character *like an American cartoon character* walk off a cliff and fall down only when they realize there is no ground underneath them). Anime is made for a wide variety of audiences, not just children.
Manga is Japanese comics. Most animes are based upon mangas. I believe the term comes from "irresponsible pictures"...something like that. I don't know Japanese, so I am not certain. Anyway, Manga is simply the term for Japanese comics.
Oekaki is a type of online drawing board. It works like a computer painter program. You go to an oekaki board to draw with your mouse (or if you are lucky and have a tablet. Personally, I use a mouse). The painting board is also a message board where you and others can leave commentary about your posted picture. I love oekaki!
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Haibane Shadsie - Posts: 511
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How do you use "irrisponsible pictures" to promote christianity? LOL
Anyway, I can't seem to figure out how to get the Oekaki applet...
Anyway, I can't seem to figure out how to get the Oekaki applet...
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JediSonic - Posts: 1359
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If you mean you can't find it, there's a link at the top of every page (it's written kinda small, LOL)
If it's simply not loading once you go to that page, that's probably an issue with your browser and you may need to install Java or an update of some kind.
Hope this helps!
If it's simply not loading once you go to that page, that's probably an issue with your browser and you may need to install Java or an update of some kind.
Hope this helps!
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inkhana - Posts: 3670
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The style that is overwhelmingly common in anime is Large eyes, small noses, and more (than most american animation) realistic human figures.
Detailed scenery is only a few anime, and then there are things like Lain which is very undetailed on purpose (except for Lain's room, which is to provide a contrast)
Oh, yeah, that's right, the animeisms:
Blush
Sweatdrops
Um, don't know what their called, but the quickly
moving splatterpaint like backgrounds to
display emotions.
The blueface (for severe shock/anger/fear)
Veins on the face
Chibbi (small, refering to SD or characters with
large heads and small bodies, no hands or feet
usually, like the power puff girls only more...
Japanese) characters (for comedic moments)
And of course visible auras, though those can be serious too...
These iconic things are much like the eyes bulging or something in american cartoons and they are not in every anime... Also, they are not limited to kid's anime, and many kids anime don't even do that... Most theatrical anime doesn't (unless it comes from a TV anime or something, like the Sailormoon movies) because those things are often "shortcuts" to show something that may be hard to animate.
One commonality that wasn't brought up yet is the shifting camera angles... The reason this is done is to make them seem more like live action... It's very easy to animate simple angles, but anime often goes for complex and varied angles, which you almost never see in american television animation. Some anime would be considered excelent direction if they were live action, because they treated it with as much in not more respect as they would a live action show/movie.
Also, the point that's hard to get across to new people about anime is that "wide audience" doesn't mean that everyone can watch such and such anime, it means that for this person there is anime a, and for this person, there's anime q, and for this person over there, there's anime ç and for this person, there's anime ß. Some anime are made for adults (this doesn't just mean porn, it means anime that get very serious or have thematic elements that are not appropriate for kids or are just too nostalgic for a kid to truely appreciate) many anime are made for teens (much like the majority of entertainment in the US is targeted to teens) and much of this teen targeted anime is R-rated by nature, JUST LIKE IN THE US **coughamericanpiecough**... Then of course, much of the Adult oriented stuff is PG or PG-13 rated by nature.
Anime in Japan is all animation, including american cartoons like buggs and mickey... In the Us it refers to Japanese animation only. It is a shortening of "Animeshon" which was imported from our word "Animation" (and did NOT come from the french word of the same spelling because "animeshon" existed long before the term "Anime" was used in Japan)
Manga Is the paperback origins of anime in most cases... Actually, I believe that manga in Japan refers to all picture books, including encyclopedias (could be wrong) and specifically comics. In the US, it refers to Japanese comics only. Even our terminology for it (comics) is a very good example of overall american ignorance and stereotyping on the subject... In the US, very few comic books are funny. In Japan, however, the manga industry did not need to take such a rebelious and pendulum swinging stance because (in the early days of it) there was no objection to them. They were not looked down on in society there like they were and are here.
That changed when the Otaku (fanatic) Murders happened... For a while, anime and manga could have disappeared forever because extreme fanatics of these forms of art, specifically of hentai (pornographic) variety, lost their social lives entirely, and did nothing but watch anime and read manga all day long, and one in particular commited several murders. The police found his appartment filled with pictures of anime girls, and lots of tapes, and just in a big mess, and the anime was associated with his mental problems (sound familliar D&D fans?)... The imagery that was shown on the news almost destroyed anime and manga in Japan, but it mostly recovered that tradgedy, though the word otaku still conjurs horrible images in many Japanese. Manga has lost much of it's solid place in Japanese society, but anime is flourishing more now than ever, so that proves that the damage done to anime by that otaku guy wasn't long term.
In any case, manga is even more varied than anime, and hundreds of manga are released all the time... Like anime, but unlike american comics, they are often released in very short lifes and when they end, they end. They are written to be a story that has a beginning and an end, not a cash cow to be milked (some exceptions: Dragonball, Pokemon, etc...) wheras most american comics (specifically the big names like Batman, superman, x-men, spiderman, etc...) go on forever because they were never meant to end, and often change authors and artists through thier runs... That is very rare in manga. Most manga have only one author through their entire runs. Most of the time, as well, the author and artist are one in the same.
Like anime, manga often follow patterns that are recognizable and consistant throughout many different manga. Many contain the same styles as many anime, but in Manga it is often possible to get much more detailed because you only have to draw one picture... That doesn't always happen, but it does quite a lot. You'll see some inked pictures in manga that look way too real to have been drawn with just ink and tones. Manga has a feel wholly different from anime, and can be a wholly different experience that is positive separate from anime, even if you've seen the anime first (or vice versa) Some manga have direct translations into anime, some are radically changed, most manga never make it to anime.
Manga are not just fiction. Many manga are true stories, many more than you will find in anime, as well as training books, sometimes textbooks, how to books... Manga requires much less money to put out, so more people can make them. There have even been famous novels from other countries that have been turned into manga, one of which is "Suikoden" the water margin, as well as outside people releasing their own manga for one reason or another (there have been bible stories in Manga form, as well as evangelistic manga...) Most of these alternate type of manga will never see a stateside release because they are just not specific enough and our culture doesn't hold as much respect (in other words, very little at all) for "comics" and only the stuff that's more anime like will make it here... I should say, more like the anime we have here.
As for Oekaki, I don't use it...
Detailed scenery is only a few anime, and then there are things like Lain which is very undetailed on purpose (except for Lain's room, which is to provide a contrast)
Oh, yeah, that's right, the animeisms:
Blush
Sweatdrops
Um, don't know what their called, but the quickly
moving splatterpaint like backgrounds to
display emotions.
The blueface (for severe shock/anger/fear)
Veins on the face
Chibbi (small, refering to SD or characters with
large heads and small bodies, no hands or feet
usually, like the power puff girls only more...
Japanese) characters (for comedic moments)
And of course visible auras, though those can be serious too...
These iconic things are much like the eyes bulging or something in american cartoons and they are not in every anime... Also, they are not limited to kid's anime, and many kids anime don't even do that... Most theatrical anime doesn't (unless it comes from a TV anime or something, like the Sailormoon movies) because those things are often "shortcuts" to show something that may be hard to animate.
One commonality that wasn't brought up yet is the shifting camera angles... The reason this is done is to make them seem more like live action... It's very easy to animate simple angles, but anime often goes for complex and varied angles, which you almost never see in american television animation. Some anime would be considered excelent direction if they were live action, because they treated it with as much in not more respect as they would a live action show/movie.
Also, the point that's hard to get across to new people about anime is that "wide audience" doesn't mean that everyone can watch such and such anime, it means that for this person there is anime a, and for this person, there's anime q, and for this person over there, there's anime ç and for this person, there's anime ß. Some anime are made for adults (this doesn't just mean porn, it means anime that get very serious or have thematic elements that are not appropriate for kids or are just too nostalgic for a kid to truely appreciate) many anime are made for teens (much like the majority of entertainment in the US is targeted to teens) and much of this teen targeted anime is R-rated by nature, JUST LIKE IN THE US **coughamericanpiecough**... Then of course, much of the Adult oriented stuff is PG or PG-13 rated by nature.
Anime in Japan is all animation, including american cartoons like buggs and mickey... In the Us it refers to Japanese animation only. It is a shortening of "Animeshon" which was imported from our word "Animation" (and did NOT come from the french word of the same spelling because "animeshon" existed long before the term "Anime" was used in Japan)
Manga Is the paperback origins of anime in most cases... Actually, I believe that manga in Japan refers to all picture books, including encyclopedias (could be wrong) and specifically comics. In the US, it refers to Japanese comics only. Even our terminology for it (comics) is a very good example of overall american ignorance and stereotyping on the subject... In the US, very few comic books are funny. In Japan, however, the manga industry did not need to take such a rebelious and pendulum swinging stance because (in the early days of it) there was no objection to them. They were not looked down on in society there like they were and are here.
That changed when the Otaku (fanatic) Murders happened... For a while, anime and manga could have disappeared forever because extreme fanatics of these forms of art, specifically of hentai (pornographic) variety, lost their social lives entirely, and did nothing but watch anime and read manga all day long, and one in particular commited several murders. The police found his appartment filled with pictures of anime girls, and lots of tapes, and just in a big mess, and the anime was associated with his mental problems (sound familliar D&D fans?)... The imagery that was shown on the news almost destroyed anime and manga in Japan, but it mostly recovered that tradgedy, though the word otaku still conjurs horrible images in many Japanese. Manga has lost much of it's solid place in Japanese society, but anime is flourishing more now than ever, so that proves that the damage done to anime by that otaku guy wasn't long term.
In any case, manga is even more varied than anime, and hundreds of manga are released all the time... Like anime, but unlike american comics, they are often released in very short lifes and when they end, they end. They are written to be a story that has a beginning and an end, not a cash cow to be milked (some exceptions: Dragonball, Pokemon, etc...) wheras most american comics (specifically the big names like Batman, superman, x-men, spiderman, etc...) go on forever because they were never meant to end, and often change authors and artists through thier runs... That is very rare in manga. Most manga have only one author through their entire runs. Most of the time, as well, the author and artist are one in the same.
Like anime, manga often follow patterns that are recognizable and consistant throughout many different manga. Many contain the same styles as many anime, but in Manga it is often possible to get much more detailed because you only have to draw one picture... That doesn't always happen, but it does quite a lot. You'll see some inked pictures in manga that look way too real to have been drawn with just ink and tones. Manga has a feel wholly different from anime, and can be a wholly different experience that is positive separate from anime, even if you've seen the anime first (or vice versa) Some manga have direct translations into anime, some are radically changed, most manga never make it to anime.
Manga are not just fiction. Many manga are true stories, many more than you will find in anime, as well as training books, sometimes textbooks, how to books... Manga requires much less money to put out, so more people can make them. There have even been famous novels from other countries that have been turned into manga, one of which is "Suikoden" the water margin, as well as outside people releasing their own manga for one reason or another (there have been bible stories in Manga form, as well as evangelistic manga...) Most of these alternate type of manga will never see a stateside release because they are just not specific enough and our culture doesn't hold as much respect (in other words, very little at all) for "comics" and only the stuff that's more anime like will make it here... I should say, more like the anime we have here.
As for Oekaki, I don't use it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs Watch this movie なう。 It's legal, free... And it's more than its premise. It's not saying Fast Food is good food. Just watch it.
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Bobtheduck - Posts: 5867
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- Location: Japan, currently. Gonna be Idaho, soon.
When I click the link at the top of this page that says "Oekaki", I see the gallery of art and comments, but no applet or pop-up window appears.
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JediSonic - Posts: 1359
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I think you have to register separately from CAA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs Watch this movie なう。 It's legal, free... And it's more than its premise. It's not saying Fast Food is good food. Just watch it.
Legend of Crying Bronies: Twilight's a Princess
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Bobtheduck - Posts: 5867
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Bobtheduck wrote:That changed when the Otaku (fanatic) Murders happened... For a while, anime and manga could have disappeared forever because extreme fanatics of these forms of art, specifically of hentai (pornographic) variety, lost their social lives entirely, and did nothing but watch anime and read manga all day long, and one in particular commited several murders. The police found his appartment filled with pictures of anime girls, and lots of tapes, and just in a big mess, and the anime was associated with his mental problems (sound familliar D&D fans?)... The imagery that was shown on the news almost destroyed anime and manga in Japan, but it mostly recovered that tradgedy, though the word otaku still conjurs horrible images in many Japanese. Manga has lost much of it's solid place in Japanese society, but anime is flourishing more now than ever, so that proves that the damage done to anime by that otaku guy wasn't long term.
I haven't heard this story before. What year did it happen?
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"Always seek to do good to one another and to all."
1 Thessalonians 5:15
"Every story must have an ending." - Auron - Final Fantasy X
"A small stone may make a ripple at first, but someday it will be a wave." - Wiegraf - Final Fantasy Tactics
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MasterDias - Posts: 2714
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NO DON't LOOK THAT UP! CORRECTION EEEW SORRY
Um... I'll look for it I forgot, think in the 80's
Um... I'll look for it I forgot, think in the 80's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs Watch this movie なう。 It's legal, free... And it's more than its premise. It's not saying Fast Food is good food. Just watch it.
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Bobtheduck - Posts: 5867
- Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Japan, currently. Gonna be Idaho, soon.
Just so it gets seen, disregard my message telling you to look it up yoruself... nasty stuff that wasn't there the last time I looked for it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs Watch this movie なう。 It's legal, free... And it's more than its premise. It's not saying Fast Food is good food. Just watch it.
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Bobtheduck - Posts: 5867
- Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Japan, currently. Gonna be Idaho, soon.
Ok, sorry for 3 posts in a row, but I was not thinking telling someone to look something up... Anyhow, this is what I found:
"There were the "Otaku Murders" of 1988 and 1989, where Tsutomo Miyazaki kidnapped and killed four girls of around five years of age, reenacting gruesome scenes from his hentai collection."
When he was caught, a news crew filmed the inside of his appartment and the walls were covered with the Hentai images and he had anime tapes everywhere (mostly hentai) and the room was very dark and dirty and it really almost destroyed anime and manga's popularity because people even there were associating that crime with anime fandom... But, anime started to gain back it's popularity and things calmed down after a few years...
It is important to note that it was hentai, and from what I hear very violent hentai that he got his ideas from... It is a disturbing tale, that's for sure...
This is why for a long time people were turned off by the term "otaku" because it would conjur up images of these murders in people's minds.
"There were the "Otaku Murders" of 1988 and 1989, where Tsutomo Miyazaki kidnapped and killed four girls of around five years of age, reenacting gruesome scenes from his hentai collection."
When he was caught, a news crew filmed the inside of his appartment and the walls were covered with the Hentai images and he had anime tapes everywhere (mostly hentai) and the room was very dark and dirty and it really almost destroyed anime and manga's popularity because people even there were associating that crime with anime fandom... But, anime started to gain back it's popularity and things calmed down after a few years...
It is important to note that it was hentai, and from what I hear very violent hentai that he got his ideas from... It is a disturbing tale, that's for sure...
This is why for a long time people were turned off by the term "otaku" because it would conjur up images of these murders in people's minds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs Watch this movie なう。 It's legal, free... And it's more than its premise. It's not saying Fast Food is good food. Just watch it.
Legend of Crying Bronies: Twilight's a Princess
Legend of Crying Bronies: Twilight's a Princess
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Bobtheduck - Posts: 5867
- Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:00 am
- Location: Japan, currently. Gonna be Idaho, soon.
ayah! I never heard of that news before...
that guy must'a have too much time in his hands...
that guy must'a have too much time in his hands...
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"I AM A CHRISTIAN, AND THIS I PROFESS UNTIL THE HOUR OF MY DEATH AND FOR GOD I SHALL GIVE MY LIFE. ALTHOUGH I DID NOT COME TO JAPAN TO BE A MARTYR, NEVERTHELESS AS A CHRISTIAN AND FOR GOD I SHALL GIVE MY LIFE." St. Lorenzo Ruiz.
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supa dupa ninja - Posts: 372
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:11 pm
- Location: the SIN city, nevada
hold on! I made a search late last night on the otaku murders, and I found a disturbing fact.
the guy reencacted a movie called guinea pig: flowers of flesh and steel. I saw pictures of it and nearly turned my stomach upside down. its supposed to be a re filming of a snuff film (ala blair witch project) very disturbing for the weak of heart...
the guy reencacted a movie called guinea pig: flowers of flesh and steel. I saw pictures of it and nearly turned my stomach upside down. its supposed to be a re filming of a snuff film (ala blair witch project) very disturbing for the weak of heart...
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Evilninja/dne.gif">
"I AM A CHRISTIAN, AND THIS I PROFESS UNTIL THE HOUR OF MY DEATH AND FOR GOD I SHALL GIVE MY LIFE. ALTHOUGH I DID NOT COME TO JAPAN TO BE A MARTYR, NEVERTHELESS AS A CHRISTIAN AND FOR GOD I SHALL GIVE MY LIFE." St. Lorenzo Ruiz.
"I AM A CHRISTIAN, AND THIS I PROFESS UNTIL THE HOUR OF MY DEATH AND FOR GOD I SHALL GIVE MY LIFE. ALTHOUGH I DID NOT COME TO JAPAN TO BE A MARTYR, NEVERTHELESS AS A CHRISTIAN AND FOR GOD I SHALL GIVE MY LIFE." St. Lorenzo Ruiz.
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supa dupa ninja - Posts: 372
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:11 pm
- Location: the SIN city, nevada
I've never heard of any of this! Crazy stuff. Makes you think twice before using the word "otaku" doesn't it? I'm glad it didn't destroy anime though. Truly obsessed fanatics can be found anywhere. They stalk celebrities and well, other such strange activities. But what causes this to happen? Do normal people just go nuts or is it usually those who had a mental disorder in the first place? Has anyone ever read "the Catcher in the Rye" by J.D.Sallinger? I read it in high school.. Thought it was an excellent book. And they say that the guy who killed John Lennon was inspired to do so by that book. Like he thought he was the main character.
But hentai is obviously a very evil influence. Out of curiousity, I've read a few reviews and some of it is dreadfully disturbing. I mean, I can understand how some porn and hentai is appealing to people. Sins of the flesh are a struggle for practically everybody. But a lot of hentai seems to be based on really scary, deranged plots... some quite like snuff films. (Anyone seen "8 Millimeter"? I rented it cuz I like Nicolas Cage and I had no idea what it was about. It scarred me for life. Before that, I never knew such things existed.) And it's frightening to think that some people get their jollies by watching that kind of stuff!
While, I'm ranting... I hate popups! I don't know how many times I've deleted spyware and scanned for viruses and such on my computer. The popups can't be stopped! I could just be sitting here, writing a post or drawing an oekaki, and BAM! There's a naked girl in my face! And I have one e-mail address that gets about 20 e-mails a day promoting porn sites, even with all my filters activated. 
YUK. Why are people so eeeewy?
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HondaTooru - Posts: 100
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Bobtheduck wrote:Ok, sorry for 3 posts in a row, but I was not thinking telling someone to look something up... Anyhow, this is what I found:
"There were the "Otaku Murders" of 1988 and 1989, where Tsutomo Miyazaki kidnapped and killed four girls of around five years of age, reenacting gruesome scenes from his hentai collection."
When he was caught, a news crew filmed the inside of his appartment and the walls were covered with the Hentai images and he had anime tapes everywhere (mostly hentai) and the room was very dark and dirty and it really almost destroyed anime and manga's popularity because people even there were associating that crime with anime fandom... But, anime started to gain back it's popularity and things calmed down after a few years...
It is important to note that it was hentai, and from what I hear very violent hentai that he got his ideas from... It is a disturbing tale, that's for sure...
This is why for a long time people were turned off by the term "otaku" because it would conjur up images of these murders in people's minds.
I heard about that from my father ages ago.I though he was joking
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Tet-chan - Posts: 428
- Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:15 pm
- Location: currently in NZ,
>>the guy reencacted a movie called guinea pig: flowers of flesh and steel. I saw pictures of it and nearly turned my stomach upside down. its supposed to be a re filming of a snuff film (ala blair witch project) very disturbing for the weak of heart...
Do you mean weak of heart or weak of stomach? lol
HondaTuru, you really ought to do something about those popups... lol I guess you tried adaware already, eh? I've just been having some [clean] pop-up problems myself, but I deleted a sneaky program that had found its way into my windows/system folder, and it got rid of them
Depending on how computer savvy you are, and how you go about the problem, it could take you a while but hopefully you'll nail that pop-up program (yes its a program on your computer, not the internet) and block those email spammers too 
Do you mean weak of heart or weak of stomach? lol
HondaTuru, you really ought to do something about those popups... lol I guess you tried adaware already, eh? I've just been having some [clean] pop-up problems myself, but I deleted a sneaky program that had found its way into my windows/system folder, and it got rid of them
Depending on how computer savvy you are, and how you go about the problem, it could take you a while but hopefully you'll nail that pop-up program (yes its a program on your computer, not the internet) and block those email spammers too http://www.pureloveclub.com || http://www.catholic.com
http://www.ocremix.org || http://www.pandora.com
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http://www.ocremix.org || http://www.pandora.com
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JediSonic - Posts: 1359
- Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:33 pm
- Location: The Bible Belt :D
Thanks! I'll do my best! (I'm not all that computer savvy, but I have my little bro to help!)
[align=center][align=left][color=Plum]Autumn アータム / Aki [/color]秋 (I respond to both.) :angel:[color=MediumTurquoise][size=84]
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." [/color][/SIZE]- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." [/color][/SIZE]- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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[color=PaleTurquoise]Friends, some of us have money and some of us have talent. All of us have blood [color=PaleTurquoise]and [/color]time.[/color]
Find your nearest blood donation center by clicking HERE.
[color=Plum] Sign up to find local volunteer[/color] opportunities HERE. Remember, volunteer opportunities have a wide range of time commitments. Even if you can only spare a few hours per month, there might be an organization out there who needs you!
Find your nearest blood donation center by clicking HERE.[color=Plum]
Sign up to find local volunteer[/color] opportunities HERE. Remember, volunteer opportunities have a wide range of time commitments. Even if you can only spare a few hours per month, there might be an organization out there who needs you![/align]
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HondaTooru - Posts: 100
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:03 pm
- Location: Sequim, WA
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- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:11 pm
- Location: Colorado
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