I need serious help...

[KOBUSHInoTENSHU]

I made a similar thread to this before but i dont know were it is... But its the same site.. on http://forums.adventchildren.net/index.php? They're talking about how Jesus is a myth again and that pagan gods like Horus were the root of Jesus...I need help badly...cause I feel like im a fool.. everyone..bruthas and sistas lets try to do this..

[Nate]

Well, first of all...I would say that you have to choose your battles. I remember your previous thread, and that was a while ago...are you still debating them? If so, I suggest you lay off of them and leave them alone. You can only debate something for so long. In fact, more than likely, you're not going to convert people through a debate. All you can do is present the evidence for your faith, and if God so chooses, He will open their eyes to the truth...but if you keep debating, they are just going to get more and more defensive.

Second, most historians agree that Jesus DID exist. While they may not believe He was the Son of God, most believe He was a historical figure that did exist. Many Roman historians of the time back up this claim that Jesus existed.

At any rate, like I said, don't feel compelled to try and convert everyone you meet. You are only human after all, and it is He and He alone who can change the hearts of men, okay?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Kae has a point, debating will not acheive much, as atheist have their proof too, which we know isn't true.

[Mi-Ru-Me]

yes its true that not every one belives that Jesus is real yet the majority of the world does Us as christians believe him as our lord and savior. While Islam believes he was a prophet and then their are those who just think he was an important guy.

[Felix]

They probably feel the same way about their faith, that we Christians slander their gods and they prolly try and push us sometimes as well. But arguing and debating isn't going to accomplish much. I won't repeat what Kae said, but I agree with him completely!

[GhostontheNet]

I myself don't have time to look with the matter today, though a search at http://www.tektonics.org for "Horus" should provide you with material. In general, having observed your apologetics in the past, I complement you for putting yourself on the front lines, but having seen you are at present something of a neophyte (though I'm not much better on some things) at it, and say as a result to be prepared to be attacked by arguments you had no previous knowledge of, and no knowledge of how to refute. I must say though, that I suspect I may have already given some material that would be useful to you in the thread I participated in. Do however remember that arguments of this are frequently royally screwing up the details of what they claim was the elements that were stolen, much as I had done against dull sheers and others in that thread. If you really wish to pursue apologetics, a powerful tool would be to acquire an insatiable thirst for knowledge, since apologetics interacts with every field of study out there.

As a note of the comments here in general, I dislike such antibiblical attitudes being passed around, for it is written;

but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you], and the greek for "defense" is apologia, which carries the meaning of a reasoned defense, and that this is the meaning is only amplified by Peter continuing;

yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

[GhostontheNet]

Second, most historians agree that Jesus DID exist. While they may not believe He was the Son of God, most believe He was a historical figure that did exist. Many Roman historians of the time back up this claim that Jesus existed.

Most historians? More like every real classical scholar out there, though views on "the historical Jesus" vary.

[agasfas]

I would also like to echo kaemmerite. It's pointless to debate something that everyeon has their minds already made up. Secondly,

I need help badly...cause I feel like im a fool.. everyone..bruthas and sistas lets try to do this..

Unless you fully know your own stance and beliefs and theirs as well, it's pointless to debate. It's like a child debating against Stephen Hawkings. You must be prepaired for others touch/hard questions and comments, and unless you know both sides fully, you will stumple and many times become confused about your own beliefs. When you don't know things in details: the who's, what , when, where, why, how etc.. It's easier to manipulate any topic to their favor.

And like the other's have said, both Historian and even other religions believe Jesus once lived, it's whether or not he performed all those miracles. I've talked to many atheist in the past and whether or not you can "prove" anyside isn't relevant because most of the time people already have their minds made up and they will never change that, no matter what prove or evidence you present. People are ignorant. So I don't think starting a crusade is the best thing to do, just let them say what they will. One day when the time comes, they'll know what they've done and what was correct.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Hey, you can only show people the truth, but God can only make them believe it.

A New Yorker, hmm? I'll be one soon.

[KOBUSHInoTENSHU]

Well, first of all...I would say that you have to choose your battles. I remember your previous thread, and that was a while ago...are you still debating them? If so, I suggest you lay off of them and leave them alone. You can only debate something for so long. In fact, more than likely, you're not going to convert people through a debate. All you can do is present the evidence for your faith, and if God so chooses, He will open their eyes to the truth...but if you keep debating, they are just going to get more and more defensive.

Second, most historians agree that Jesus DID exist. While they may not believe He was the Son of God, most believe He was a historical figure that did exist. Many Roman historians of the time back up this claim that Jesus existed.

At any rate, like I said, don't feel compelled to try and convert everyone you meet. You are only human after all, and it is He and He alone who can change the hearts of men, okay?

I understand.. thanks Kae-san.. I know im not 100% converting anyone.. most of it is God.. yea I obsess over it and wont calm down when I see stupid comments on Christainity or a Creator.. but the posts that stumped me greatly were #'s 85 and 91. http://forums.adventchildren.net/showthread.php?t=27011&page=7&pp=15 Im gonna look at the site you gave me GhostontheNet. It looks good.

[GhostontheNet]

I think the opinions of people aren't quite as static as agafas makes out, otherwise, how have books and articles of persuasion been so popular for centuries, nay, even millenia?

[agasfas]

I didn't read the the advent thread, I was just speaking in general. If you don't know both sides in depth, then it's pointless to argue. It makes for a weak arguement.

[GhostontheNet]

I didn't read the the advent thread, I was just speaking in general. If you don't know both sides in depth, then it's pointless to argue. It makes for a weak arguement.

Yes, so I said myself with different wording in my original post. My comment was in response to certain remarks in the paragraph after that.

[agasfas]

Oh yeah, I agree. Let my re-phase what I've said. I guess what I meant to say is that when someone grows up their whole life w/ a certain belief, they will usually not listen to another view point contrary to their beliefs (christians and non-christians).
So I didn't mean to give off the impression that I believe no one is persuadable, because there are a lot of open minded people.

My main point was if that these people are closed minded, or if this person didn't know her stance in detail, then it's pointless to start a debate. Anyways, I think we are getting a bit off the original topic at hand lets try getting back on track.

My advise KOBUSHInoTENSHU is that you just leave the debate where it is. Aruging usually accomplishes little. Plus, people tend to say things they don't mean in the heat of battle, heck it happens. So make love not war . It's okay not the believe what another believes, but it's only fair you respect their beliefs because we want them to do the same to us. You always want to set an example of love like Jesus would have done.

[GhostontheNet]

Oh yeah, I agree. Let my re-phase what I've said. I guess what I meant to say is that when someone grows up their whole life w/ a certain belief, they will usually not listen to another view point contrary to their beliefs (christians and non-christians).
So I didn't mean to give off the impression that I believe no one is persuadable, because there are a lot of open minded people.

My main point was if that these people are closed minded, or if this person didn't know her stance in detail, then it's pointless to start a debate. Anyways, I think we are getting a bit off the original topic at hand lets try getting back on track.

I disagree about wondering off of the topic, dealing with the underlying issues of an event is as relevant as those on the surface.

My advise KOBUSHInoTENSHU is that you just leave the debate where it is. Aruging usually accomplishes little. Plus, people tend to say things they don't mean in the heat of battle, heck it happens. So make love not war . It's okay not the believe what another believes, but it's only fair you respect their beliefs because we want them to do the same to us. You always want to set an example of love like Jesus would have done.

I don't generally have a problem with this, but then again, I have a very calm demeanor, in fact, though a teenager still living with my parents, it has been some time since we have argued loudly at each other (which isn't to say we haven't argued). Of course, Christ Himself argued with those He felt were leading people down the wrong paths, and sometimes had unkindly words to say about them. There is a time for such things, though knowing when that time is and when it is not is the most important thing, and in general it is better to take Peter's advice in his epistle. This is why I generally take on a neutrally toned rhetoric when challenging ideas or people, saving harsher tones for when I think they are due and necessary.

[Dante]

Disclaim me if I am wrong at any point, but I am only trying to do what I feel best.

KOBUSHInoTENSHU, It's always good to hear of a good forum battle, most of time these sort of things degrade into nasty battles over evolution. Something that sickens me a theoretical physicsist. Science was made to appreciate God's wonders and never to be used a weapon for the athiests.
As for the subject of these battles I have never found one who was changed by their outcomes because our enemy happens to be very good at hardening their hearts to any argument or plea no matter how good the axiom. Nonetheless I believe that a solution does indead exist to solving this and softening their hearts (the main problem) I just can't give a solution myself.
It is also important not to get so focussed on the argument that you forget what you're truly fighting for, the eternal destiny of those to whom you speak. Every moment of every hour God continues to knock in each and every one of their lives. And he loves them all very dearly even though they speak evils now. We should look past this though and realise all of this shall be forgiven once they except Christ into their hearts. After all we were all sinners once so we have no place to judge them, that is for God to do. My latest theory for this has one aspect, don't aim for the king from the getgo in this chess game but take out the queen first. Learn to love and you will have the greatest asset on the board. Or at least thats my theory. Love of course refering to the biblical passage 1 COR 13:4 if I'm correct.
Hmm this is only a thought though. I'll try to help if I can, but I don't know how much I can really do.

God Bless you,
Pascal

[Dante]

There I've posted on the link you gave me, its a strange start but I have to have somewheres to try out my theory. Anyways it's 12 O'Clock and I have to wake up tomorrow at 7. Good night!

[Fsiphskilm]

A smart man

[termyt]

It is very difficult to refute such an argument as "Jesus didn't exist." That is an opinion based on ignorance and no amount of fact is likely to dissuade someone who wishes to believe it.

Historical evidence proving Jesus's existence abounds. Secular historians of the period acknowledge His presence. Whether or not you believe His message is a matter of faith, but His existence is not.

That's about the best you can do outside of doing serious research and quoting actual sources on the subject. Those who would claim He never even existed are looking to rationalize their own non-belief and aren't likely to believe any amount of evidence to the contrary.

[Arnobius]

While I don't have time to find all my old notes, I recall one tactic that was used with the people who believe Jesus was a myth because they were based on "old, unreliable texts" is to ask them to prove that some historical figure roughly contemporary with Christ (Julius Ceasar is frequently used) really existed. The point is to apply their arguments against the Bible or other evidence against whatever proof they provide.

The purpose of this is to get them to recognize that the level of proof they are demanding is unreasonable.

Peter Kreeft made use of this in the book Between Heaven and Hell in a Socratic-style dialogue involving a Christian, a Western Materialist and an Eastern Mystic.

Also remember that just because you might not be able to answer someone's objections to Christianity (and they might be worded uncomfortably plausible), that doesn't mean that an answer doesn't exist. Christianity has been attacked for it's entire existence and many theologians have been challenged by the same arguments that modern skeptics and new-agers use now.

[GhostontheNet]

Science was made to appreciate God's wonders and never to be used a weapon for the athiests.

Amen to that.

I know that If I were to point a loaded gun to their head, each and every one would go crawling back to God, either whispering his name with their last breath or considering doing so.

Much as I wish that were true, I know that's not true. Ben Witherington, commenting on the prediction of Revelation 16:21 which states that even hundred pound hailstones weighing a talent pummeling people, they simply curse YWHWH. On this, Witherington writes]Some may find it incredible that people facing utter destruction and death would not turn to God and implore him for rescue. Yet this is not the way many people react to a disaster happening to them. [Craig] Keener tells the story of a man who miraculously survived an air crash. He "always expected people who were dying to cry out to God for mercy in their final moments, but noted that he heard many respond with cursing, following the habits they had spent their life developing. Whether God acts with justice or mercy, some refuse to believe ([Revelation] 16.9)" (Ben Witherington, Revelation: The New Cambridge Bible Commentary p. 213, citing Craig Keener, The NIV Application Commentary: Revelation p. 400)[/QUOTE] I think your extreme pessimism is misplaced, what about C.S. Lewis and Gregory Boyd's father? What about the Theology Web denizens who follow the same model? In fact, many of those who became Christianity's great proponents seemed at one time like their redemption was hopeless.

[GhostontheNet]

Arggh, double post, please delete.

[KOBUSHInoTENSHU]

Ghost, the site you gave me is good but it's almost like collage reading. Do you have anything easier?

[GhostontheNet]

Ghost, the site you gave me is good but it's almost like collage reading. Do you have anything easier?

Afraid not, perhaps you should spend a little less time debating, and more hitting the books, as that's always helped me.