Would you pull the trigger?

[Hitokiri]

I had an idea to make this thread when writing a paper on genocide for English. I came up with the conclusion that anyone can commit genocide. This isn't supposed to spark a aarguement, just to ask yourself if you'd kill someone.

As Christians, we should abide by the 10 Commandments as well as the Bible which clearly states "Thou Shall Not Kill". However, does this clearly differentiate killing and murder. In eccence, the act of murder is killing but then wouldn't wars be considererd murder since you are killing the enemy. Though in Biblical times, God allowed wars (killing) and told Isreal to kill it's enemy and such. So what's the difference of killing and murder.

Would murder be considered the unlawful slaying of another in cold blood? You still get those arrested in war for killing people even though it's legal in a sort of ways (for instance the Abu-Grab (sp?P incident). It's obvious that God allows wars cause they happen. However, does God favor them and as Christians who are in war, is it lawful for us, who try to live the Christian life, to kill our enemies? However, God has told us to follow our government cause it is the establishment of God's rule of Earth.

Now...to the point I'm trying to make. Would yo ukill someone? You don't know if you would until the incident actually happens but you can, based on your morals and your values, can make a smart guess. I don't thik a Christian would kill someone fo rthier own gain or just to get a kick out of it. However, and I for one agree, that if any of my family, friends, or loved ones would be threatened with thier life, I now for sure I would kill whoever is threatning them with thier life. Is that justified by saving those whomI loved or am I just as bad as the gun who treatened to kill one of my loved ones? Is it right? Even though it is for good.

Next comes my next question, are human born and inheritantly evil? I believe as soon as we ar eborn, the lust of sin enters our body. That is why without Christ, you go to hell. The only person who wasn't inheritantly evil was of course Christ. Therefore, that's why I believe I have the capacity, my sister has the friend, my pastor has the capacity, everyone has the capacity to kill a person because of this evil born inside of us from birth. Wether it be out of cold blood, for kicks, told by authroity, or to save those whom we love, killing is murder and murder is killing.

So...the question is (sounds like a bunch of jumble thoughts ) is that would you kill someone (wether it be out of cold blood or to save someone) and is killing to say those wom we loved (justified) is it still considered murder or killing.

Thi sis also basically to gather my thought cause I need to defend my reasoning on this subject come tommorow in class. Mods, if this goes against any of the CAA rules, I'm sorry and go ahead and close it,

[Shinja]

ok to start off the nature of man is evil, from the time we are born we all sin, the argument that man is inherently good is a false humanistic belief that has no scriptural founding.

now about killing i believe it is very clear in the Bible that killing and murder are two separte things, murder is an act of sin while killing is either an act of justice, or protection. i look at king david, he was called a man after Gods own heart. he was also know for slaying his tens of thousands. but it wasnt untill he murdered uria that the Lord told him he had blood on his hands and would not allow him to build the temple. i think more than anything else this shows the distiction between the two.

now the whole thing about genocide? well genocide is wrong, it has no other purpose than to eraticate a certin group or people. it fits none of the criteria of self protection/protection of loved ones, becuase it it envoloves the killing of innocent people.

theres more i would type about this but, im tired from school so ill leave it at that

He said to them, But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you dont have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

[shooraijin]

We'll allow it with the following exceptions:

- Politics not allowed. If this branches into the ethics of, say, the Iraq war, or any other war or diplomatic/political action, it's toast.
- If this diverges off the abstract point of justifiable homicide into another topic, it may be cancelled then too.

[uc pseudonym]

My response in this thread will be intentionally limited.

However, does God favor them and as Christians who are in war, is it lawful for us, who try to live the Christian life, to kill our enemies?

Here is another question: is it a good idea? Every person you kill will (by the Christian definition of the afterlife) go to heaven or hell. If they go to heaven, they were a part of the Body of Christ while on the Earth. What message would Christians killing each other send to nonchristians? Paul is extremely critical of even lawsuits between Christians, so I doubt he would condone killing each other. On the other hand, if the person goes to hell, by killing them you condemned a soul for whom Jesus suffered and died to hell for eternity.

However, God has told us to follow our government cause it is the establishment of God's rule of Earth.

Note that Paul wrote that while in jail because of his own "lawful government." I'm certain you believe that Christians are first called to follow Christ, otherwise this could justify anything whatsoever.

Now...to the point I'm trying to make. Would yo ukill someone? You don't know if you would until the incident actually happens but you can, based on your morals and your values, can make a smart guess. I don't thik a Christian would kill someone fo rthier own gain or just to get a kick out of it. However, and I for one agree, that if any of my family, friends, or loved ones would be threatened with thier life, I now for sure I would kill whoever is threatning them with thier life. Is that justified by saving those whomI loved or am I just as bad as the gun who treatened to kill one of my loved ones? Is it right? Even though it is for good.

I will say this much: I believe that it would be wrong to kill another, but also wrong to do nothing in the situation. In our theoretical situation it is not necessary for anyone to die. In practice this will at times result in death, but I would gladly lay down my life for another. If it is a question of others dying, my question for myself would be this: do I really want to play at being God and decide who lives and who dies?

i look at king david, he was called a man after Gods own heart. he was also know for slaying his tens of thousands. but it wasnt untill he murdered uria that the Lord told him he had blood on his hands and would not allow him to build the temple. i think more than anything else this shows the distiction between the two.

Not so. The passage in question is 1 Chronicles 22:8, which reads "But this word of the LORD came to me: 'You have shed much blood and have fought many wars. You are not to build a house for my Name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in my sight."

[quote="Shinja"]He said to them, But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag]

Keep in mind that immediately following the chapter reads:

[quote="Luke 22:37-38"]He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag]

Assuming that "the disciples" refers to at least the 12 apostles, that's a ratio of 2:13, weapons to people.

[Godly Paladin]

Since others have discussed your other comments, I'll just answer the title question.

I'll try not to give the reflexively macho answer of "Sure, if it was the right situation, I'd kill someone." I've thought of this before, in the context of a criminal, etc., charging me with a knife or whatever. Theoretically, I think I could, but on the other hand I believe that something inside of me would make me keep threatening him with the gun until it was too late. Fear or anger would probably be the driving force in the end that would make me pull the trigger. Otherwise, like I just said, I'd probably wait too long before shooting.

But seriously, though, I'm only fifteen. I have absolutely no doubts that my dad would indeed kill someone who, for the lack of a better phrase, 'needed killing.' Maybe in time I, too, will gain the mental fortitude and the maturity needed, but right now...it's theoretically. I wouldn't have problems with the concept of justifiable killing, but I would have trouble with the execution. (No pun intended.)

[Shinja]

Assuming that "the disciples" refers to at least the 12 apostles, that's a ratio of 2:13, weapons to people.[/QUOTE]

this is true, yet you should realize a sword is a weapon made to kill, it serves no other purpose, you dont play with it, you dont hunt with it, there is no "sporting sword". "2 is enough" doesnt mean that God didnt want his disciples to protect themselves, even up to and includeing lethal force. also he clearly says in the first part of luke 22:36 to not only arm your selves for protection, but sell you cloak to do so, if you must. meaning its not only nessecry but importantly so.

killing is a bad thing, it should not be our goal as christians to kill those who hate us, or annoy us, or try and make us angry for the bible says we should love those who persecute us and forgive those who have wronged us. remember those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

and i persoanlly wouldn't worry about thier salvation. becuase if i killed some one they would have to be threating or in the processof killing myself or someone else, and if theyre a christian, they should know better, and if theyre not, it is they who have refused Jesus's salvation. any Grey areas, like what if theyve never heard about Jesus?, God knows these things, and he will judge these things.

[Uriah]

If it meant the life of an innocent, and I had no other way to protect them, I would pull the trigger.

The bible may say "Thou shalt not kill"
But it's also written "He who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin"

So if I had the power to protect someone, even if It meant killing, but instead I just watched them die, wouldn't I be just a guilty?

[Hitokiri]

It just seems to contradict eachother...Thou Shall not Kill and to protect those you love that you would kill someone. I kinda find that confusing.

I would never kill someone if thier wasn't a cause so great that would tear apart my humanity to do so such as protecting a family member or innocent lives.

[Godly Paladin]

"Thou shalt not kill" refers to murder.

[VioletEyedCat]

I believe that if the cause is great enough, as you say, Hitokiri, to kill someone for- then the cause is great enough to sacrifice your own life in place of theirs- like Christ did for all of us. Which is why I find uc pseudonym so compelling:

In practice this will at times result in death, but I would gladly lay down my life for another.

Unfortunately, the situation is not always one in which a Christian can lay down his life to prevent those unsaved from dying.
One of my Bible teachers taught that there is a point of no return- a time in a sinners life where it is determined that he will not be saved. I still don't know if I can put my trust in this- but if such a thing were true, then killing an unsaved person to protect another may not be condemning them to hell. I do not know for sure- it's just something to think about.

[Nate]

One of my Bible teachers taught that there is a point of no return- a time in a sinners life where it is determined that he will not be saved.

I disagree...in theory.

God is omniscient. He already knows in His infinite wisdom and intelligence who is going to accept His son and who is not. So, in that sense, He already knows who He will condemn to Hell.

However, we as Christians do NOT have this information. Therefore, to teach that there is a "point of no return" is in my mind, false...as God already knows who the saved and unsaved are. Therefore, there CAN'T be a "point of no return." It's already been...I don't want to say determined, as I don't believe God picks and chooses who He wants to be saved, He wants everyone to be saved...but I can't think of a better word, so I will go ahead and say it has been determined already.

Second, keep in mind that this belief may foster an attitude of "it's not worth it" to some Christians. "Oh, he's past the point of no return...he can't be saved." To say that there is a point of no return would probably foster that attitude in some believers, because it would justify their personal convictions (i.e. "I don't like that person, he doesn't deserve to be saved so I'll say he can't be saved, that way I don't have to witness to him"). We do not know who will be saved and unsaved...therefore, we must do as God commands and witness to everyone rather than saying there is a "point of no return" beyond which a person cannot be saved, seeing as how the people that God knows will not be saved even before they are born can't be.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this is what I think.

To drift back on topic...

It's easy to say that I would not kill someone...however, I have seen the movie "A Time to Kill." If I had a young daughter that was raped and beaten by some drunk guy, and he was acquitted due to a technicality (i.e. the police didn't read him his Miranda rights or some such nonsense), I would more than likely be compelled to do what Samuel L. Jackson did in that movie, without thinking of the repercussions. I would like to think that I am stronger than that...however, it is difficult to say being that I have never been in that situation before (and hopefully never will be).

Yet another reason to praise God that I will never have kids.

[VioletEyedCat]

Yeah- my Bible teacher says some weird stuff- I take everything he says with a measure of salt.
I do remember the book and movie 'A Time to Kill'- I know I probably sound really heartless- but I dislike 'A Time to Kill' in its entirety because it tries to justify murder. Doesn't the Bible tell us to not seek revenge? For that is what was done. It saddens me to see people trying to make excuses for it- and twisting a Bible verse to do so is just wrong. That verse refers to killing in warfare- not murder for revenge. Sigh...

[Debitt]

I'd love to say that if my family or my friends were in life-threatening danger, I would do everything I could to protect them without killing. Unfortunately, I'd be lying if I said that, because when provoked, I can be VERY tempermental, and in a situation like that I fear I might not have the self-control to think out a solution more reasonable than killing.

I don't smile upon killing in any form, but I believe that there is a difference between cold-blooded murder and killing. Like Hitokiri mentioned, God instructed the Israelites to kill, and though it may border on "playing God" in this day and age to kill someone for a reason such as protecting another, I think not doing anything would definitely be just as bad.

[Hitokiri]

I think not doing anything would definitely be just as bad.

To me, knowing you allowed one of your most closest loved ones die without you attempting to save them is more worse torture than killing somone. I would think that pain would be more severe.

[The Last Bard]

God knows the heart. He knows why everyone kills, and therefore I know he is able to tell apart a murderer and someone who kills only out of self defense or protecting an innocent.
Say there is a man that had just killed...someone you loved very much. You are standing over him with a .45 to his head.
You could call the cops.
Were you to shoot him, that would be murder, I would think.
When killing is not done as a last resort than that would coincide with the "Thou Shalt Now Kill".
And also, isn't war, defence? Those who would go to war for anyother reason than to protect the ones they love, or their country would be wrong.

But you know what? Maybe I have no idea what I'm even talking about.
Just don't shrug me off as someone who knows nothing of what he's talking about.

Thanks, TLB

[Yojimbo]

God is all knowing and obviously knows who will be saved and who will not be. Of course we also know that even until the last moment of someone's life they can be saved no matter the sin. Obviously some will be saved and others won't be... It seems almost a contradiction but of course it would be foolish to say we as humans could possibly understand this on the level God does.

I believe it is clearly stated in the Bible that murder and killing are two different levels. I don't really need to go any further than that because everyone else has summed it up quite nicely. I too would if I absolutely had to "pull the trigger." Obviously with the line of work that I've decided on doing for a good portion of my life there is a pretty good chance I'll be having to do some of that. I know it's going to happen and if my life or someone elses were in danger I don't think I would not waste time thinking about it.

[Debitt]

To me, knowing you allowed one of your most closest loved ones die without you attempting to save them is more worse torture than killing somone. I would think that pain would be more severe.

I agree. I stated it that way because I didn't want anyone to think I condone killing or saw it as the first solution one should resort to.

[true_noir_chloe]

I think there have been some great answers. The law was given to 1) show sin and 2) to show us how holy God is. Christ took the law and gave it to us in His redemptive work as this: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." I paraphrased it.

It is all about intent and love.

Murder is cold-blooded with the intent to break Christ's second commandment: "love your neighbor as yourself." Love is what motivates a believer. Now, if someone is threatening an innocent, one not provoking another to kill them, and you, as a believer see that person what should you do? You should protect them. Are you not loving that neighbor by protecting them from one with ill intent?

God always works with "intent." What is the intent of the heart. Was your intent against a brother? Was your intent to do harm for no other reason than your enjoyment? Always look at the intent of the heart, because this is what God has always worked with. Such as, when David and his men ate of the offerings in the temple. Why was it not counted against him? Because God saw the intent of his heart, which meant not evil or disrespect to His God.

War has an intent to lawfully serve your country. Men and women do not go out killing with a murderous intent - at least, they shouldn't be.

I think I made the point rather clear in this, from my standpoint. I believe it is always based on the intent of the heart.

I know I would pull the trigger if I had to, but I would not pull the trigger if the person fell to their knees, dropped their weapon and ask me not to. I couldn't.

That is why I have to agree that I would never kill someone as an act of revenge. That is only up to God. I have to agree with VioletEyedCat who said they hated that book, "A Time to Kill." I didn't agree with what the character did. Although, I would be hard-pressed if it was my daughter to not want to do the same thing. I really doubt I could follow through and would make more effort in working with my daughter's healing in the Lord.

I think what you need to ask, Hitokiri is what is the intent of pulling the trigger, is love really at the base of it - love for your fellow man? Protecting your fellow man in the heat of war or in the possible murder of a family member to me is justifiable according to Christ's commandments.

[uc pseudonym]

this is true, yet you should realize a sword is a weapon made to kill, it serves no other purpose, you dont play with it, you dont hunt with it, there is no "sporting sword". "2 is enough" doesnt mean that God didnt want his disciples to protect themselves, even up to and includeing lethal force. also he clearly says in the first part of luke 22:36 to not only arm your selves for protection, but sell you cloak to do so, if you must. meaning its not only nessecry but importantly so.

I apologize]and i persoanlly wouldn't worry about thier salvation. becuase if i killed some one they would have to be threating or in the processof killing myself or someone else, and if theyre a christian, they should know better, and if theyre not, it is they who have refused Jesus's salvation.[/QUOTE]

Personally I don't think I'd be comfortable with that, as I believe I am responsible to my fellow humans. But I think that ultimately it would be best not to focus on our differences, for we truly do agree on most of this subject.

Unfortunately, the situation is not always one in which a Christian can lay down his life to prevent those unsaved from dying.

You do realize that my sentence following the one you quoted addressed that, however, right?

God always works with "intent." What is the intent of the heart. Was your intent against a brother? Was your intent to do harm for no other reason than your enjoyment? Always look at the intent of the heart, because this is what God has always worked with. Such as, when David and his men ate of the offerings in the temple. Why was it not counted against him? Because God saw the intent of his heart, which meant not evil or disrespect to His God.

I agree with a fair amount of what you said, but I wouldn't be comfortable stating what I just quoted. By that logic, homosexuality is justified. While I'm not saying that logic is bad, I do believe that it is incomplete. It is very possible to sin against God with no intention of doing so (now, it is arguable if that will be counted against you, but that's beside the point).

[girlninja]

i believe we are given by God the right to defend ourselves.....thou shalt not kill....killing meaning murder....i think it's hard sometimes to really fill in the potential grey areas becuz your get questions like well who decides it's ok to kill this person for such and such reason.....like genocide with the nazi's felt justified to kill jews....iraqi militant radicals feel justified to rid the world of evil infidels....therefore we can't rely on justification alone by man's standards...tho i don't have the time to look up verses it is my belief that if your life is being threatened then you should defend yourself...bear in mind as well tho...you can incapacitate someone without death tho sometimes even this can't be helped...

well these are my thoughts at least ^^

[Fsiphskilm]

Proper Translation = Thou shall not Murder
wrong translation (mistranslated at the time of bible translating) = Thou shall not kill

kill = To put to death. To deprive of life
murder = The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

More examples:
Proper: "Counter-Feit Christ"
Wrong: "Anti-Christ
greek word meaning anti & counterfeit are frequently confused over.

proper: have respect/honor and awareness of the power and wrath of the lord
wrong: fear the lord

[chibi_chan]

I think that if somebody was hurting a person I loved, i'd kill them in an instant.....

And now your going to all read this and think i'm a pshycho O_O;;;;

[Hitokiri]

I explained my reasoning to my peer-paper group and some looked at me kinda wierd.

[true_noir_chloe]

I agree with a fair amount of what you said, but I wouldn't be comfortable stating what I just quoted. By that logic, homosexuality is justified.

No, I don't agree that that would justify sin, such as homosexuality, UC. I think this is where we are misunderstanding one another. ^__^]While I'm not saying that logic is bad, I do believe that it is incomplete. It is very possible to sin against God with no intention of doing so (now, it is arguable if that will be counted against you, but that's beside the point)[/QUOTE]
I agree, human logic is very incomplete. That is why I hate philosophical arguments, because they are cyclical within human reasoning. Finite man cannot reason an infinite being. (Sorry, that's beside the point.)

I also think we sin every day without intending to do so. However, because of Christ's grace to forgive our sins as far as the east is from the west, they are not counted against us. Again, however, to grow as a believer we need to come to Him continually in prayer and supplication and ask forgiveness in order to keep growing as a believer and a Christian who glorifies the Lord in all they do (I John 1). Salvation frees us of the bonds of sin, yet sin clouds our whole being. I think only in reading the entire book of Romans can you find the best argument on intent and God's sovereign grace.

I know this goes much deeper and my comments on "intent" run further than a quickie comment I made; such as, how can a sinful man ever have a godly intent? Since sin plagues our very nature, how do we justify anything we do? I just believe God knows more than this and His Spirit guides us to know when we should do the right thing, and His Word tells us to love above all else. "Love" is the operative word behind intent.

This is why genocide is wrong, because you are killing simply because someone is not like you. All our history is one story after another of one people killing another people because they did not agree with them. Only God has that right. Only He is holy and justified in this. That is why killing someone who commits abortion is wrong - because that is not "our right." We are merely fellow men. That is why when a Muslim/Islam kills innocents and says he is doing it for God it is wrong. He hasn't that right. That's why being a vigilante is wrong. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord - He can kill anyone He wants - not us.

Anyways, this could get very long. I'm not doing a very good job, but I think Volt's quickie version makes so much more sense than me. ^^;;

Sorry, I've commandeered your thread, Hitokiri. So, did you get a grade on this? Would you want to share the presentation you gave with us?:)

[Hitokiri]

I have yet to write my final paper on this (which is due wendsday). My group disagreed with me however. See, as a human, I am one in the same as Hitler. Sure I didn't order thousands of jews, gypsys, gays, etc to thier death but I am a human and humans have that capability.

I remember one girl saying she refuses to believe that she could go to Hell caus she's a good person, does good things. When I commented that everyone is inheritantly evil, a person challenged me that aren't Christians supposed to be loving? I replied yes but that doesn't mean that I can't be straight foward and beat around the bush when saying we are all doomed to hell without Christ.

It's not my thread, just an idea. Anyone can say what they want ^_^

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="chibi_chan"]I think that if somebody was hurting a person I loved, i'd kill them in an instant.....

And now your going to all read this and think i'm a pshycho O_O]

Why Kill when you can K.O. them.

Poeple don't realize how fragile the Human body can be. One wrong fall and you can die instantly, on the other hand killing a person right then and there isn't the easiest thing to do, and would require rather.. volitile and gruetesque actions.

I just can't image you, chibi_chan, doing something like strangling someone. Maybe jumping up and doing a backflip and KOing them (like in tekken )

I would never kill a person unless it were the most Dire of situations. Dude, there are so many more things you can do, shoot them in the shoulder, push them out the window, why does everyone always resort to the Fatal Shot.

[Stephen]

Dude, there are so many more things you can do, shoot them in the shoulder, push them out the window, why does everyone always resort to the Fatal Shot.

Lawsuits will be so much fun for you. When the man that broke into your house, had his way with your wife...shot your dog, and slapped you around..only to be shoved out a window. Then, he can sue you. Take most of what you have earned in life...

I had promised myself I would not post on this thread...but, I am human and I feel the need to post. A lot of really smart things have been said on this thread. There is a clear difference between murder and defending yourself. I look at this a few ways...to guys who are married....you have a duty...to protect your wife. If someone breaks in, and they have no intent of leaving...its your wifes life or theres. In my posistion living at home, if someone broke in....its my parents life or theres. If I yelled at someone and they did not beg for mercy...I would kill them. I just care more about my family then the life of some crackhead trying to rob me. Now like Val said...if at 4am I hear somthing breaking...I go downstairs and yell whos there? If some kid drops to his knees...I would not kill him...that I think is crossing the line to murder. I belive the law in America is in the house....because if you chase someone out of your house and shoot them on the run...your in trouble. If someone was unarmed....I would not hurt them. But, if I know someones there...and they don't drop the ground...I would drop them. As I said, the lives of my family are more valuable then the lives of someone who decided to break in. When they kicked that door open, they made the choise that it was worth risking there life. I personaly belive that God knows conditions. If someone breaks into my house and is waving a gun around...God knows I would shoot them. So, if someone breaks into the house waving a gun around...I am not going to worry if they know the Lord or not. All in all, I pray I never am in that situation. Some movie had an awesome quote...I think it was the film Unforgiven. "Killing a man aint pretty...theres no magic like you see on TV...its a horrible thing" I just hope none of us ever are faced with this decision.

[Kaori]

The question of whether killing is ever justifiable is one that I have been deeply concerned about for a long time, but which I have yet to truly resolve in my mind. I do, however, have incredible respect for anyone who has decisively chosen a nonviolent route. (The attractiveness that this position has for me might have something to do with the fact that I am currently attending a Mennonite church, which does teach pacifism.)

Regarding Luke 22:36 and its context, I would simply point out the very real possibility that Jesus' disciples completely misunderstood him, especially given his response in the following verses. Since the disciples failed to understand Jesus' statements on several other occasions, is it not possible that Jesus was speaking symbolically in this case?

[Fireproof]

Why Kill when you can K.O. them.

I agree. IF you shoot someone in the foot, they'll likely fall over in pain, effectively removed from the situation. I understand that there might be a point where a lethal attack might be neccessary, but in most situations it isn't.

[chibi_chan]

I just can't image you, chibi_chan, doing something like strangling someone. Maybe jumping up and doing a backflip and KOing them (like in tekken :grin

I guess...One of the maine reasons is that I get angry easily (I can control myself sometimes) and if someone hurt my brother I would most definatly hit them over the head with something hard them keep hitting them till they begged for mercy.

I'm really not a pyscho, really^^;;;;;