In defense of mary sues: please don't kill me!

[Bobtheduck]

I personally see nothing wrong with a ficitonal story that involves real people... I'm making a TV show involving real people that's fictional, though it's only the external story that's fictional... I actually think that this sort of thing could be incredibly interesting, but in it's true form hasn't shown up in the public view with very few exceptions... Usually these sort of things are tongue in cheek, and they would almost certainly be quirky and a bit avant garde, but that doesn't make them "bad" per se... It's not the inclusion of real people (self or otherwise) that makes them bad, but that the story itself is bad... I think that the self-insert/mary sue has garnered a bad reputation with false backing to it.

[Ashley]

I think the thing that gives them the worst reputation is the typicality (is that a word? It is now) of the plot. It varies from show to show, of course, but it's nearly always the same for that particular show. I've read a few "good" Mary Sues, but that's where they were extremely creative and didn't sleep around with one of the main characters. Is the technique itself bad? Usually not. Is the over-use of a simplized plot and sex scenes bad? Yup, and it brings the whole genre down with it.

[madphilb]

Excuse my ignorance..... "mary sues?"

PHIL

[andyroo]

Here! The second page and later explains it.
http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1453

Now some song from the 50s or 60s is starting to come around.

[uc pseudonym]

A self-insertion is not necessarily a Mary Sue, in my book. When it becomes a Mary Sue is when the character has been inserted for the purpose of someone living out their fantasies within an existing show. I find that very few Mary Sues are actually tongue-in-cheek at all... the world would be a better place if they were.

So yes, I suppose the technique is not necessarily bad. However, I would say that it's predisposed to be a bit worse writing, though it doesn't have to be.

[MillyFan]

I think Mary Sues/self inserts are idiotic. All of them that I've seen are basically the writer's attempt at self-aggrandizement, fulfilling one's wishes that will never otherwise come true, and writing a cliche story.

I give an exception to self-inserts done in a humor story and that are obviously in mockery of self-insertion-this is actually somewhat funny if it's done well.

Nevertheless 99999999.9 percent of Mary Sue material is absolutely brainless and seems to follow the same cliche style as follows:

An incredibly beautiful and intelligent girl who has better marksmanship than Annie Oakley and who has an intellect stronger than anyone else's enters the story.
Somehow, Miss Perfect (as I will call the textbook Mary Sue) manages to fall madly in love with one of the main bishounen of the anime even if he's already in love with someone else or even if he has no interest in women.
She somehow miraculously helps him out of impossible situations, yet becomes a whining little wimp in need of being constantly protected or rescued.
In the end, Miss Perfect manages to win him from his intended love interest or even convinces him to develop an interest in women that until that point has been nonexistent.
Then, there is either a plotless, pointless lemon (if the Mary Sue writer is looking for reviews) or the poor, poor little wimp somehow makes an incredibly stupid and automatically fatal mistake in a battle/enters time and ages/commits suicide/etc. and dies, whispering last words of love as she dies next to her "beloved." (if the writer is going for angst)

Maybe I'm being unfair, but this is what a Mary Sue is in the Trigun fandom. I've seen more than my share of them (when they're labeled in the summary in such a way as to make you think they're not a Mary Sue, or conversely when they're so obvious that I stop by to leave flames).

I personally wish that authors who write these self-indulgent pieces of spam would do the rest of us a favor and label them as such-especially if they're multichaptered, long stories. Little in fanfiction annoys me more than reading 10 chapters of a story hoping the original character won't be a Mary Sue (in the rare instance when they aren't one), and instead it just gets deeper and deeper into Mary Sue territory.

[Bobtheduck]

I'm going to compare your example with a SM fanfic I was writing.

I think Mary Sues/self inserts are idiotic. All of them that I've seen are basically the writer's attempt at self-aggrandizement, fulfilling one's wishes that will never otherwise come true, and writing a cliche story.

Well, um... Actually, my semi-self-insert fanfic for SM wasn't for the purpose of putting myself in some sort of fantasy setting, but bringing the characters into a story I had made. As for whether you would have interpreted that as so I won't really know...

I give an exception to self-inserts done in a humor story and that are obviously in mockery of self-insertion-this is actually somewhat funny if it's done well.

Nevertheless 99999999.9 percent of Mary Sue material is absolutely brainless and seems to follow the same cliche style as follows:

An incredibly beautiful and intelligent girl who has better marksmanship than Annie Oakley and who has an intellect stronger than anyone else's enters the story.

Well, I gave my character no special powers. No fighting abilities. Nothing spectacular...

Somehow, Miss Perfect (as I will call the textbook Mary Sue) manages to fall madly in love with one of the main bishounen of the anime even if he's already in love with someone else or even if he has no interest in women.

Well the object of your desire's status has nothing to do with your liking them... They could be gay or married or priests or something... That isn't going to stop people from liking them.

She somehow miraculously helps him out of impossible situations, yet becomes a whining little wimp in need of being constantly protected or rescued.

Hmm... Well, no... And yet that doesn't mean that the SM characters won't rescue my character... It's not out of their characters, I mean... In fact it would be out of character for them not to.

In the end, Miss Perfect manages to win him from his intended love interest or even convinces him to develop an interest in women that until that point has been nonexistent.

Nope... My character doesn't "win the girl"

Then, there is either a plotless, pointless lemon (if the Mary Sue writer is looking for reviews)

Now you already know how I feel about this... eeew...

or the poor, poor little wimp somehow makes an incredibly stupid and automatically fatal mistake in a battle/enters time and ages/commits suicide/etc. and dies, whispering last words of love as she dies next to her "beloved." (if the writer is going for angst)

Well, um, actually... I was planning on having my character die... The rest of the stuff, no. Nope... My character isn't even "in love" with any of the characters... His brother is though (hehe, a fictional character I made up just for the story...)

Maybe I'm being unfair, but this is what a Mary Sue is in the Trigun fandom. I've seen more than my share of them (when they're labeled in the summary in such a way as to make you think they're not a Mary Sue, or conversely when they're so obvious that I stop by to leave flames).

I personally wish that authors who write these self-indulgent pieces of spam would do the rest of us a favor and label them as such-especially if they're multichaptered, long stories. Little in fanfiction annoys me more than reading 10 chapters of a story hoping the original character won't be a Mary Sue (in the rare instance when they aren't one), and instead it just gets deeper and deeper into Mary Sue territory.

Ok... So, go by what I'd said... Was my story a "Mary sue"?

in any case, my SM fanfic probalby won't get made... I have an original story to write and a TV show to make, which take priority. I just thought the Fanfic would be fun, but no one read my first couple chapters, so i gave up on it.

I have started other fanfics (one for SM, one for pokemon... it was a long time ago) and my stuff usually ends up being really dark (on my pokemon one, some of them comit suicide) and, well, I just never finished any of them (those others weren't self inserts... I came up with entirely original characters ) the only reason I wanted to make that last one a self insert was because... Well, i have no clue... But it was not truely a self insert because though the character had my personality, the name was fictional, the place was fictional, and the surrounding original characters were fictional, history was fictional, I guess it's more accurate to say I just used myself as a model for an original character, which is true even with my novel I'm working on.

In any case, though, I dont' see anything wrong with the concept by itself.

[uc pseudonym]

But it was not truely a self insert because though the character had my personality, the name was fictional, the place was fictional, and the surrounding original characters were fictional, history was fictional, I guess it's more accurate to say I just used myself as a model for an original character, which is true even with my novel I'm working on.

That's not a Mary Sue. A lot of my characters have a lot of me in them. That just happens naturally, if the author is very good. Of course, you should be able to create characters completely unlike you as well.