Do I have to choose anime or faith?

[MillyFan]

I don't know whether this is an example of Jesus using his emotion, but he did get anrgy from time to time (the market place incident for example). Technically, he should have refrained.

Who are you to say what God should and should not have done?

If you're accusing Jesus of actually sinning, then you have just ripped the heart out of Christian belief, because He had to be absolutely, perfectly without sins (even forgiven sins) to be an acceptable sacrifice to God in our place for our own sins. So much as one lustful thought, one moment of uncontrolled rage, any human weakness or fallibility at all, and He would have become no better than the rest of us, hence unable to save us from our own sin.

The reason I (and many others) are Christians is because we know that we are too weak, are too sinful, and therefore need to be represented before God by Jesus Christ our Lord, Who has never sinned.

Sorry, but while I agree with you on some points (free will, the need for developing our own ethical code on secondary issues as opposed to simply accepting what we've been spoon-fed from others), I totally disagree with you here.

[Bobtheduck]

Every act Jesus did was for a purpose. He WAS angry at the money changers because they were causing people to lose faith. They were turning what should be worship to God into a conduit for greed. Now, I know some of you are going to latch onto that and ever so casually slip in something like "tv evangelist" but please don't go there right now. It's neither the time nor the place.

I have heard many people bring up this point, about the money changers. You'll notice that the only places Jesus ever got violent (either verbally or physically) was dealing with the religious leaders. They were using their position to drag people down, and he dealt with them in the only way they could respect. It was only where it affected people's faith and brought them down that he did that. He didn't lose his temper or act irrationally. He didn't do any thing wrong. He wasn't being led by emotion (though he clearly had many, including anger, so the belief that emotion=bad is not only laughably perpostrous, it is very anti-scripture) He met them exactly where they were at. And when that is applicalble is what only the wisest of us are able to discern, which I am not yet. And, if you're a new convert, I can say with some level of assurance that neither are you. That's ok. That's why we need help from others and can't do it on our own. That's really why you need to make sure you're in a Church, particularly a church where you feel you can talk to the pastors and leaders/deacons/elders. The Body of christ needs to stay in communion so we can grow and not go off in our own little way. This is especially key if you're a new Christian, because you are in many ways like a Baby (born again) and you need to be sheltered and protected and guided by those who've been around longer (your older brothers and sisters) and at Home with your father (communion/community with other Christians)

Groups of people mess up interpretation of the Bible a bit, but individuals with no input from people who've "been here" longer are almost certain to fail. There's a reason Jesus never sent people out by themselves. It was always 2 by 2 because seperatism is at heart very against Christianity.

Also, genesis aside, the commands Jesus gave are pretty much not up to interpretation. They are quite clear. However, things that were not outright commands, and the words of desciples are a bit different, but it is possible to understand what they are saying and there is a right interpretation, but it really only comes by study and discussion and, most importantly of all, honest prayer.

[Echelon]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold up a second.

I was asked to provide evidnce of Jesus using his emotions in his work NOT whether or not he sinned. Don't go reading too much into what I say Milly. All I meant was that he was highly emotional when he turned the tables over, and so he should have been, faith was being destroyed.

Bob, I disagree. The very fact that you, I and anyone else disagrees with each other in minor issues is the very proof that tells us the Bible is being interpreted, whether it should be or not. Thats all I am saying, and only Jesus can you tell us whos right and wrong (even tho the grey area in between maybe large).

[Frank]

we should alll remember not to take media too seriously any one that over re-acts to neon genesis thinks to deep on the matter. shows like that and the news should be humoured they are there for entertainment not for fact.

don't think too much on tv shows and movies coz if we all did, it would end up with a chicken run liberation army

[Technomancer]

If we all agreed with one another, this would be a very boring place! Recall how sharply I disagree with many people here myself on a variety of issues.

Now, the question of emotion. In the end, our belief however we express must come down to something that in human terms can be called emotion, or better, faith. I cannot *prove* the existence of God, or the truth of the gospel, nor can I express my faith in purely rational terms. Theology is important in our thinking, but remain "faith seeking understanding", in other words if they are to be more than an intellectual exercise, they must be rooted in faith. At the same time, faith and love cannot be based on the mere expectation of reward, or fear of punishment. Beyond freedom and dignity indeed.

Where does leave us? In the end, all of us are are drawn by grace towards God. And it must be in love that we respond, love that draws us to communion with God.

Man cannot live without love. He remains a being that is incomprehensible for himself, his life is senseless, if love is not revealed to him, if he does not encounter love, if he does not experience it and make it his own, if he does not participate intimately in it. This, as has already been said, is why Christ the Redeemer "fully reveals man to himself.

Pope John Paul II- "Redemptor Hominis"

This does not mean we exist in a vacuum, and that we have no need of others. The Church is intended as a community. It teaches, supports, leads and serves, all in the service of its great mission.

The Church's fundamental function in every age and particularly in ours is to direct man's gaze, to point the awareness and experience of the whole of humanity towards the mystery of God, to help all men to be familiar with the profundity of the Redemption taking place in Christ Jesus. At the same time man's deepest sphere is involved-we mean the sphere of human hearts, consciences and events.

Ibid.


PS. to those with webpage renewal problems wiping out your posts. You will find that a simple solution is simply to copy it to the clipboard prior to hitting the "Submit reply" button.

[Echelon]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold up a second.

I was asked to provide evidnce of Jesus using his emotions in his work NOT whether or not he sinned. Don't go reading too much into what I say Milly. All I meant was that he was highly emotional when he turned the tables over, and so he should have been, faith was being destroyed.

Bob, I disagree. The very fact that you, I and anyone else disagrees with each other in minor issues is the very proof that tells us the Bible is being interpreted, whether it should be or not. Thats all I am saying, and only Jesus can you tell us whos right and wrong (even tho the grey area in between maybe large).

[DanekJovax]

I'm looking into moving this new discussion to a new place, and I'll post news as I get it.

I'd like to continue it, but I just don't think this thread is the best place for it.

Ja matta ne! ;2)

[Bobtheduck]

Bob, I disagree. The very fact that you, I and anyone else disagrees with each other in minor issues is the very proof that tells us the Bible is being interpreted, whether it should be or not. Thats all I am saying, and only Jesus can you tell us whos right and wrong (even tho the grey area in between maybe large).

I'm not saying people don't make their own interpretation, I'm saying that Jesus commands can be taken at face value. And yet people still try to interpret them to mean something other than what he said, or for that matter what he did. I think many people's "interpretations" come by looking too hard at one verse or another, and not reading the whole story in one piece. If you look at everything as a whole, much of the issues people argue about are not all that debatable.

By the way, you countered with a defensive stance against milly, but didn't remark on my answer to the same statement. I said that what Jesus did was not acting on emotion, and gave the reasoning I had. Since that was the statement in question, why did you overlook what I had said? And, no, it's not only Jesus who can tell you who's right. Jesus does put people who have more time and growth in Christ in the position of "shepherds" or protectors (Pastors) as well as some as teachers. That doesn't mean those people are above reproach, quite the contrary, but it's not "just Jesus" who tells us because if that's the case, it becomse quite blurry who's "just Jesus" as Satan can look really close to Jesus.

Also, if all of Scripture (I'm going out on a limb here, I don't think you said all scripture, but I'm probing a bit) is all based on interpretation, there is no church. We're all just little philosophers making our own observations and living our own way. There are certain things that are right and wrong, certain things that are absolute, certain things that are not up to interpretation. Some (but not all) of the things that are absolute are

1. Jesus is God and came in the flesh (as a human with a physical body). He claimed it numerous times, and so did his early followers (particularly Peter, John, and later Paul) If you believe anything else, you are not a Christian. There is no interpretation to that.
2. Jesus died and was ressurrected. That is core to what we believe.
3. Everything comes down to love. (as a note, Love is not the concept most people have in English, but an explanation of Love is in I Corinthians) and if we are truely followers of Jesus, we will develop Love... (as a note again, that doesn't mean we don't screw up still... Just that we are en process)
4. Sexual immorality, including heterosexual activity outside of marriage, Homosexual activity of any kind, meditative sexual desires to someone who's not married to you, and of course one other step I could go, but prolly won't be acceptable to bring up in this forum...
5. Lying is wrong and counterproductive to a christian life... IN english, it destroys your faith (just as the sexual immorality does) basically, this is put on the same level as sexual immorality which made it impossible for people to get arrogant... With these two things, Sexual immorality and lying, no one is good enough to get into heaven (liars... sexually immoral... will not enter heaven)

Those are some of the absolutes.

i'm not saying that every single word in the bible is an absolute command. In fact, Paul says at time "This is only a suggestion" and also Peter says "sometimes his words are hard to understand" reffering to Paul, so we do have to interpret some things. But there are things that don't require any special interpretation.

If everything is based on personal interpretation, there is no church and there are no christians...

[Bobtheduck]

I like your point of view Frank.

It has been the much trumpeted mantra of christianity in general that the truth is out there, no one really knows what it is. Afterall, is my truth the same as your truth? How do you define truth? Its a consequence of perspective really, but Christianity, in its purest form (as endorsed by Jesus through the Bible) promotes self leanring, not puppeteering lunacy through the 'guidance' (or should I say dictation) of someone else. As the stories tell you, he defied authority in the light of discovery. Now, I am not advocating that you beat your mother with a stick until she listens to you, but rest assured you are not wrong.
.

Jesus was not defying "authority in the light of discovery" he was defying people who claimed to serve his father, when they were serving themselves. And Jesus wasn't underneath anyone's authority because he was God. That doesn't mean that there is no authority that God puts us under. "Go ye therefore into all the world preaching the gospel and making disciples" (sorry for the King James thing, that's just what I memorized it in first...) Making disciples. Why is that? Because it's too easy for new Christians to come up with their own ideas based on whatever that aren't accurate to what Jesus had said. John, Peter, James, and Paul all fought this sort of thing. They all fought false doctrine that people had. The people were all under their authority and guidance, and after them other such as Mark and Apolos and subsequently others through time. Of course, no single person was immune from correction or reached any level where they had no more problems... Even Peter, who Jesus had said he would build "on this rock" was subject to correction by Paul. And Paul was subject again to correction in the issue concerning John-mark. However, them being subject to correction did not elliminate their authority. They had authority. If you don't believe you are under any authority, you are in dangerous waters.

[Echelon]

Bob,

you certainly are going out on a limb!! I love the way you have interpreted what I have said *ahh, catch my sly example*

Anyway, sorry I didnt counter what you had said, I am a very busy boy, and I figured you wouldn't mind if I just addressed the issue in general. I don't believe that the enitre Bible is up for our own appraisal, and I msot certainly agree with the core basis of our belief in Christianity, without it we are nothing. HOWEVER.

Isn't (I am going out on a limb here :p) the church jsut an interpretation of Scripture as well, except that it just so happens to be the BIGGEST interpretation?? And it just so happens that we have faith in their knowledge? This is evidenced through denominations (this chat room is non denominational) however they do exist, and eahc offers a slightly different (albeit small) spin on the rleigion story pertaining to Christ. I often wonder, what makes them right and where do they get these assumptions from? As I have said I am not the biggest knowledge bank of Bible verse, even though I have read it, and as you say, I know the big picture, isn't that enough?

I am running out of time for this at the mo, will speak with you soon.

Tchuss!

[Shinja]

<Isn't (I am going out on a limb here :p) the church jsut an interpretation of Scripture as well, except that it just so happens to be the BIGGEST interpretation??>

im not intirely sure what your saying here,are you saying that the church isnt nessicry?

[Bobtheduck]

<Isn't (I am going out on a limb here :p) the church jsut an interpretation of Scripture as well, except that it just so happens to be the BIGGEST interpretation??>

im not intirely sure what your saying here,are you saying that the church isnt nessicry?

That's exactly what I was pickingup this entire time. And that's what I was trying to counter.

Hmm... I have a feeling that no further thing I can say will make a dent. It seems you have beliefs you've formed on your own and no one can change your mind. That being the case, I bow out of this conversation.

[otaku]

well its better to keep the faith and all than anime really both just stay away from any that compromises your faith/beliefs. as for the church it isnt needed you can do without it, but it certainly can and is a help to you often.

[Bobtheduck]

"Do not neglect your congregational meetings"

that is the only verse I can think of right now, but there are many more... Basically you need to stay in fellowship with other christians and receive teaching. If you stop receiving teaching, you won't grow. The fellowship you have needs to be with those who are more, though this isn't the word I'm looking for, "experienced" than you are, who have gone through more and have wisdom to share with you. It is important. If you stay on your own you will fall. It's cutting yourself off from the body.

[otaku]

i have heard that and i welcome it. my point is you dont have to go constantly i would love to and will go but have yet to find a church i enjoy going to when i found one i will attend mostly at least once a week it is a good thing to do but i don't feel it is a must. i have bible study in school and i discuss things here on the net and with others I come across in my day good enough i feel but yes by all means attending church is a good thing

[Echelon]

This is what I am trying to say to you guys!!.

you are making assumptions in my posts of meanings that I had never tried to get across. I never once said that the church is not necessary - quite the contrary, it is absolutely necessary.

I was trying to get you all to think about the state we are currently in, and that interpretation does exist. There is nothing more to it. I repeat, there is nothing more to it than that. Maybe the point I am trying to make is trivial, or moot, but yet it remains. Christianity is NOT a solitary religion, the Church is needed, as guidance and as access to heaven. But sitll each denomination has its own slant on the rleigion issue and thus the slant of their message changes,a nd soemtimes even the bigger issues.

If I come back later and someone has posted a message saying * they think I said I was going to kill a rbbit (or something else that I never mentioned)* I don't know whether I will laugh or cry. Please pelase don't read too much into this.

[Shinja]

sorry if i sound rude i really dont mean to but it would help if you just would post what you mean instead of asking vage questions. but i think this debate has gone on too long as it is and would be beifitial to close it before misscomunication and opionions cause anyones feelings to get hurt.

[inkhana]

I agree; this is going nowhere. Guys, get back on-topic, all right? This is not at all in the spirit of the original conversation.

[Macross]

Well I don´t know how it´s there, but in Brazil most of te anime that goes to TV are violent ones, what brings a wrong idea about most anime, I belive that you shoud behave the same way that you do to movies, stay away from some that cam be bad for you(I would say that evangelion and hentais are some of them).
After all most of them bring some good ideas! Try to explain this to your mom!

[Echelon]

Sorry guys for going off topic.

You now have my undivided attention.

If your faith is strong enough, you will notbe adversely influenced by 'bad' Anime. Lets face it, if you are steadfast enough, it may even be good entertainment.

[Bobtheduck]

If your faith is strong enough, you can witness to someone in a strip club, having their salvation as your only focus and not be affected by the lust and seduction around you, but the number of people in the world who can do that is probably in the single digits. I don't personally know anybody with that good of self control to not be affected by ANYTHING. That's why it's good to establish boundaries at least for ourselves. What is the issue is how we set them for others... That's what's more shady...

[Blewin]

it's the same as selecting which movie and tv series to watch.

so select the good ones. There're lots of good animes out there with TONNES of good themes that'll blow your parents off their mind. Wayy better than most of the shows on tv these days.

[Echelon]

Here Here

[inkhana]

it's the same as selecting which movie and tv series to watch.

so select the good ones. There're lots of good animes out there with TONNES of good themes that'll blow your parents off their mind. Wayy better than most of the shows on tv these days.

This must be true, as I only have one timer on my tv receiver set to automatically change to a certain show and that show is anime...