On Loosing One's Religion

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On Loosing One's Religion

Postby Haibane Shadsie » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:44 pm

I'm not. I haven't been to church in about 2 months, but, no, I'm not loosing my faith. I'm still a Christian...

I'm just wondering if any of you go through this...

wishing you didn't believe what you do believe.

What I mean is...

like, Christ being the only way to God and Heaven. I believe this wholeheartedly, yet, I often wish I didn't, because it would be so much easier in regards to thinking about unsaved people in my life (whom I have shared the gospel with but who haven't accepted it), and about the world in general.

And... what I'm really feeling today...

I wish I could get in touch with one of those preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin and that the Bible isn't against it. I believe certain verses in the Bible are pretty darn clear on that - but I wish I could have someone convince me of the other view, the more liberal view.

That way, I wouldn't get myself into so much trouble aruging with yaoi fans on other places that I go to, and I wouldn't look like a hateful, stupid person with out of date views.



These things... you know, I think I would feel so much more free if I believed diffrently than the way I do on them, but, unlike what some people seem to think, believing these things is not a choice for me - I just believe them, even if I would like not to sometimes.
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Postby Ingemar » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:35 pm

It's normal to have these worries--about people rejecting the gospel because of elements that sound too foreign, or offensive to their sensibilities. We ourselves can't do much about it, except to keep loving those who reject the word and keep hope.

Though God can and most certainly does affect the course of history, I am a firm believer in individual Free Will, and God's allowance of it. If God wanted mere robots to sit there and praise him all day, he certainly could have made a whole new batch of cherubim and seraphim, but he didn't. Love coerced is not love gained. It pleased God to give Man free will, even if that will is used against him.

The doctrine of Hell is what causes many in the religious and spiritual world to spurn and loathe Christianity, or at least, the doctrine of Hell itself. But I believe Hell is a compliment to man's unique ability to choose for himself. That may not be a comfort to you, but let us remember that no one with confidence can tell you what heaven and hell are exactly like, even if they believe in it. Some believe that hell is a temporary place (Jews) while others believe some would rather be in hell than spend eternity in heaven with a God they hate (J.P. Moreland).

Don't let Biblical difficulties get you down. Some of the strongest Christians faced their doctrinal difficulties head-to-head and emerged stronger than ever before.

And remember that Christianity isn't about "being nice to others." Even heathens can do that. What separates Christianity from any other social program is that Christ brings treasure that never perishes, and water that satisfies evermore. Food and water is fine, but whoever eats will assuredly get hungry again.

Remember that love is not a purely sexual thing. He who believes love can only be expressed in sexual terms is, to put it politely, obtuse.
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Postby shooraijin » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:28 pm

Certainly it is frustrating that, once you've learned the truth, you realize that you are obligated to it, and every time I deny it I get grilled about it by my conscience. It would make me feel immensely better to not know that the unsaved are truly lost without Christ, and not to realize that the truth demands my position on things such as immoral lifestyles (heterosexual *and* homosexual) be respectful of the sinner and yet simultaneously unerringly condemnatory of the sin (and pained to realize that the sinner him/herself may still take it personally no matter how much I try to separate the two). Unfortunately, the truth found me, and I too am stuck.

I can well empathize with the position that it was easier when I was ignorant. On the other hand, Hebrews reminds us that the fulfillment of God's promise is often long after our lives have ended -- thus, even if the promises held in His truth don't come true in this lifetime, they will in the next. But it's hard to struggle to live in this world and wait for them, living by a truth that sometimes feels like deadweight holding tight to believing that one day, God will reward us. Of the awareness of that struggle, I am fully in agreement.
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Postby Archan » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:18 am

I don't know if you are refering to a dry spell so to speak Haibane, but in case your wondering, yes I have been through one.

It's rather interesting, yu don't so much loose your faith, but you feel, dry, as if your not effected like you use to be, you don't get the same feelings, the same rush, the same annointing of the spirit that you use to, and it feels more like obligation to go to church. It's also a rather scary feeling, because you develop this wonderful relationship with good, and all the sudden you feel dry? It's sort of drives you to do alot of personal self-inspection so to speak. but eventually, you come out of it. It feels like ya never will, but you do.

As for the burden of being aware of the truth holds, I am more then aware of it, and the cause & effect this knowledge holds. It's dangerous knowledge, no one ever views it as such, but it is. People have died over this knowledge, people still die, with this knowledge death follows close by, but irronically so does life. The bible slearly states that the word Jesus brought with Him was going to pit father against son, and daughter against mother, it would seperate families, and tear apart the stongest pacts between men. And so, as we see, it has. I know what you mean about family members, I am going through the same situation, and have lost very close members to lies, never to be saved again or given another chance, but I strive on. I never stop, because I myself don't want to be accountable for that kind of sorrow on a loved one, I'll fight tooth and nail to save the ones I love, until the day they die, because then I'll truly know I did everything I could, and it was their choice in the end. God gave my family free will and who am I do deny them that? They will choose one or the other, I have come to peace with this.

As for if you will come to peace with this fact, is entirely up to you. There's no magic set of words or counsel that will make this horrible fact go away. You have to simply accept it as the will of God, and trust in Him, have Faith. Talk with Him, though you may feel like your not getting answers, that is actually the time when your closest to God, and He usually answers in a way only He can. Will you lose family members, probably, and I'm not going to lie , its gonna hurt alot. But you'll stive on, God will always be there to share the burden, and guide yu through, He never gives us anymore then He knows we can handle. And if we do fall, He's always there to help us back up.

As for the Homosexuality thing, and being singled out, i feel just about the same as well, mainly with Evolution and Creation however, but still, the feelings are the same. I personally love to be singled out however, because I know I'm not alone, and after all the dust has cleared and the words have flown and the tempers have flared, I'm still standing, with my little book, and I feel stronger then ever. You will always be singled out for your faith Haibane, history has proven this and it will only get worse, but you are never alone if you stay true to the Word. I don't mind because i think I was given a sort of....debative nature so to speak. But each one of us if different and deals with these things as God sees us fit too. God will reveal how you will overcome this hurdle, because it's your own personal hurdle that only God can help you with. and when you do overcome it, the feeling you'll exerience will be quite enough to shadow your troubles.

I hope i wasn't too vague, and I hope I wasn't too long with my rant. I only hope there was something in there that can help, and that you know your not alone with these feelings you have, there are people here that can relate. If anything let that one statement shine the brightest out of my overly long post :sweat: I'll be praying for you though, if this is any comfort, and I hope you pray for me as well :thumb:

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Postby uc pseudonym » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:41 am

What I have to say is very similar to what many other have said. I can very much understand Christianity making your life worse than it was before. But I don't think I have much to add to what has been said.

Haibane Shadsie wrote:I haven't been to church in about 2 months, but, no, I'm not loosing my faith. I'm still a Christian...


I would urge you to go to church in some manner. Why don't you? Does it have to do with the church teachings, possibly related to this issue? Have you considered attempting to find a new church/denomination entirely?

Haibane Shadsie wrote:I wish I could get in touch with one of those preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin and that the Bible isn't against it. I believe certain verses in the Bible are pretty darn clear on that - but I wish I could have someone convince me of the other view, the more liberal view.

That way, I wouldn't get myself into so much trouble aruging with yaoi fans on other places that I go to, and I wouldn't look like a hateful, stupid person with out of date views.


Be cautious. Most pro-homosexuality preachers have absolutely terrible theology, the kind of thing I could take down off the top of my head. If you really, really want to, there are some arguments regarding the exact meaning of homeocoitus. The thing is, I completely disagree with these interpretations, and so do basically all Hebrew scholars.

I can understand how the view immediately puts you at odds with yaoi persons. But it strikes me that taking almost any Christian stance will get you pegged as having out of date views. I'm not sure that's escapeable. The best I can ever do is making sure I love the person, despite the sin. And I'm afraid I really don't have anything to say to help you. At least I can promise to pray for you...
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Postby termyt » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:16 am

Ignorance is indeed bliss, Haibane Shadsie. I often wonder what my life would be like if I didn't know what I know and I didn't know that I didn't know it. Knowing you don't know is no fun, but if you don't know you don't know, then it's great not to know, you know?

On the other hand, I'm glad you know, even though that dumps a ton of responsibility on you. I pray you can find some support from Christian friends both here in more personal face-to-face ways.

If someone is set in their sinful ways, arguing is rarely fruitful. State your opinion and back it with good reasons and then let the topic drop. If they pursue it, then they're the ones who are being hateful. That's my philosophy, anyway.

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Postby cbwing0 » Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:33 am

If you are asking whether I have ever felt bound by my beliefs, then yes, I have felt that way. I find that as time passes I am less able to sin without feeling the compelling force of my own conscience (and the source of this is the Holy Spirit, if I am not mistaken). For example, I hear a good song on the radio, and I want to hear it again. In the past, I would have just downloaded it on Kazaa; but now, I just...can't. When I am working, I am sometimes tempted to cut corners in order to save time; but again my conscience reminds me of what I should do, and I have to take the extra time to do my job well. Of course there are still times when I give into temptation, but these are becoming less frequent.

However, I do not really consider it a burden to know the truth. Truth is inherently exclusivistic, as there is only on reality; therefore, there is only one right answer amidst a sea of error. No one questions these answers in something like math, but there aren't many people who have an emotional and spiritual investment in math equations. Perhaps some would consider it a burden that I cannot believe whatever absurdity enters my mind, but I view it as a blessing.

I do question my faith; or rather, I honestly confront the doubts of myself and others by seeking answers. So far, I haven't found a question that didn't have a satisfactory answer, and I do expect that to change anytime in the near future.

Haibane Shadsie wrote:I wish I could get in touch with one of those preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin and that the Bible isn't against it. I believe certain verses in the Bible are pretty darn clear on that - but I wish I could have someone convince me of the other view, the more liberal view.
I would also advise against this. It is easy to find someone who asserts a position that would appear to extend our own license (or that of others); however, letting emotion guide reason in this manner is not the way to find truth. I would encourge you to study opposing views (while at the same time balancing that by finding reasons for your own beliefs), but not if your goal is seeking justification for an immoral practice so that you can smother the voices of conscience and reason.

Extending the example of downloading music, I tried for a long time to find people who defended p2p networks, since I thought that that would justify my use of those networks. Then one day, I read the opinion of someone who honestly believed in the goodness of p2p networks, as well as that downloading copyrighted material was stealing. The moral issues involved are very clear, but I needed someone to remind me of the truth without sounding like a hypocrite. That is the nature of most--if not all--moral teaching: reminding us of what we already know, but were avoiding through rationalization or denial.

I have had some experience with "Christians" that defend homosexuality. Specifically, there is a student group at my university known as the Queer Christian Fellowship. Along with homosexuality, their beliefs are based on elements of the New Age movement and a large amount of relativism. Obviously, this is not the Christianity that is found in the Word of God.

My point is this: don't base your beliefs on how many people agree with them, or on whether you can find some pundit that advocates similar views, for that is one of the most basic and oft-ignored logical fallacies.
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:54 am

for a long time, I was afraid of hurting people with my views as well. I had to make a decision. either keep candy-coating my beliefs so that I could keep from offending those with opposing views, or stand up for what I believe in and run the risk of hurting people or even making them hate me.

Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV) 11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

I take a lot of comfort in those words. for a while I doubted if I was doing the right thing, but I think standing up for the truth is always the right thing to do. and yes someone might get offended, but there's also a chance that someone might find God.
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Postby Splintered » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:35 am

It's difficuly, and I don't think it gets easier.

After becoming Christian, I find myself not getting into the shows that everyone likes to talk about or laughing at all the jokes people tell. It's also hard to talk about with friends and others. Sometimes, during debates, I wish that it could be me on the otherside, because everyone labels you as ignorant before listening.

But no matter what someone is going to label you as their fool. The thing is to get past that. They can call me all they wish but it's my push forward in something I really believe that refuses me to get dragged down.

Just hang in there. Faith doesn't always come easy.

As for homosexuality, don't get to hung up about it. Even if it is a sin, it's only an outside issue. What you want to push for is their soul. Once God enters a life, it is his job to change them not anyone elses. A person's job is to give another the ability to meet God.
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Postby Vash is a plant » Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:04 pm

I know how you feel, that the very thing that is supposed to set you free, is really inslaving you, that if you didn't believe and follow, you would have freedom. That's one of the many lies given by Satan. No, in Christ there is a type of freedom that can't be described, only felt.

And while words to give you are now lost from my mind, I give you my heart and prayers in comfort.

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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:11 pm

I understand, i really understand. I have those same feelings. But all we can do is pray, and share the Bible.
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Postby Kat Walker » Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:36 pm

It seems to me yours is a problem of peer pressure, one I whole-heartedly emphasize with. Being a Christian nowadays is neither easy, glamourous, popular, or fun (was it ever?) for a long list of reasons, some which you've already mentioned.

I feel like I'd be overstating the case that other posters have made on the issue if I rambled on so I'll just say this: Christianity is a religion of strength and constant growth. Of learning, hope, sacrifice, hardships. No other belief system is like that -- at the core they're mostly just self-gratifying, relativistic, passive, or made to excuse human nature. Where is the room for truth, sincerity, meaning, and triumph in those kinds of worldviews?

Nothing compares to the gauntlet that God will make the aspiring Christian run. Oh, you will come across dark times. You won't know if you can make it. You won't know if you even want to try. You will be hit with everything that the enemy can possibly strike you down with. Sometimes you'll fall and the reprecussions might even last a lifetime. But the fickle and ever-changing whims of man hold up nothing to the triumphant joy found in knowing you are saved...and therefore ultimately special and loved by the very Creator of the Universe.

Forgive me if this is not much help. I am by no means a counselor, and I know how futile it is to attempt to simply "talk" someone out of not being affected by such strong fears and doubts. From what I see your fortitude is quite strong and your heart sincere, its just difficult for you to have to deal with the pressure being exerted from you on so many sides. But regardless, God is watching over you, and rest assured one prayer is being asked on your behalf right now.
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Postby Kaligraphic » Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:52 am

In Jesus' death, we died. In his resurrection, we are resurrected - except that we're different people. Something like being undead, except possessing all life.

My view is that it's kind of pointless to tell people about sin - after all, every sinner knows they're a sinner. The thing is, people preach about sin when God says that he's blotted out our sin - the word gospel means "good news", as does the greek word "euangelion". If the gospel was about avoiding sin, it would be bad news.

If the gospel isn't about sin, then how about preaching righteousness. A lot of people preach that righteousness is behaving right, but the Jews tried that and it didn't work. ("Therefore by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, ...We conclude, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:20, 28) Since preaching right behavior doesn't work (or the law would still be in effect, and only jews would be able to be saved), God's plan is basically "do everything and all they have to do is trust me". The cross took care of everything - all human sin died on that cross, and God will work that out in anyone who agrees to it. Remember, God "works in us, to will and to do, according to His good pleasure". That basically means that we get to go back to before the fall. Remember that before the fall, there was only one sin - eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve didn't eat of the tree to know about evil, she did it to know about good.

The way I figure it, sin isn't the selling point - righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit are good selling points. Eternal life, supernatural provision, and miracles are selling points. Telling people about these seems to be more attractive, and is more in line with God's own marketing strategy. Jesus healed many people, and Paul had such a strong healing annointing that when he would pass by, sick people would be laid by the side of the road, and those that his shadow touched would be made well. try focusing on the benefits.
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Postby Momus » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:06 pm

Yeah... ya just have to remeber the joy you get from doing something well, or after worship, or from abstaining. Sure, its not as great as we'd like it to be, but you feel oh so more horrible if you sin than the regret of not. Even then you have God's approval to cheer you up. I think finding a new church would be a great new start. Redo your vows, like a marriage. You know you have the strength to do what is right, you just dont wanna. Its sorta like waking up on school days. Think about it, would it really make you feel better to believe something that is wrong? It would set you free inside a cage, thats the only freedom you would get. well, enuf of that. WHY DO PEEPS WRITE SO MUCH ON THEOLOGY POSTS?! also, just try to avoid stuff that drains you.
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Postby Kat Walker » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:20 pm

also, just try to avoid stuff that drains you.


That's also good advice. When I am going through stressful or doubtful times where answers aren't coming easily, I just step away from everything. Step away from the debates, the strife, the contention, say a little prayer for God's guidance, and rest for a while. During this time I usually contemplate and reflect on my situation, trying to be as positive as possible. Tackle the problems only when you feel rejuvinated enough to handle the spiritual warfare going on around you. I hope this may be practical enough to be of some help. ^^;
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Postby cbwing0 » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:13 am

Momus wrote:WHY DO PEEPS WRITE SO MUCH ON THEOLOGY POSTS?!

Quite simple: complex subjects require more than a single pithy phrase or quotation ;) .
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Postby uc pseudonym » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:19 am

Momus wrote:also, just try to avoid stuff that drains you.


Unless, of course, you are draining yourself into a path or career following God. At times emptying yourself can be quite beneficial. But I don't disagree with the statement, and do keep in mind that God is interested in your wellbeing.

Momus wrote:WHY DO PEEPS WRITE SO MUCH ON THEOLOGY POSTS?!


I believe this was covered by cbwing0.
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Postby termyt » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:38 am

uc pseudonym wrote:Unless, of course, you are draining yourself into a path or career following God. At times emptying yourself can be quite beneficial. But I don't disagree with the statement, and do keep in mind that God is interested in your wellbeing.


Absolutely. We are called to serve and that means we will get drained occasionally. It's part of the job. If you are never drained, you probably aren't doing all that you should. Just remember that God is faithful and He will fill you up again when He needs to.
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Postby Momus » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:25 pm

I suppose theology is complex, but theres really a very simple solution to everything. Just pray, even if you dont feel answered. Although that sometimes is a matter of will power.
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Postby cbwing0 » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:39 pm

Momus wrote:I suppose theology is complex, but theres really a very simple solution to everything. Just pray, even if you dont feel answered. Although that sometimes is a matter of will power.

If only it were that simple...God gave us His Word for a reason: so that we could read it, study it, and learn from it. Prayer is important, but so is being, "prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" (1 Peter 3:15a). That is why we study theology; and why every Christian should be at least somewhat familiar with it.
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Postby ice122985 » Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:26 am

good answer cbwing0. i think it is commendable the way you base nearly every answer of yours on the Bible. keep it up.

back on subject: what's more to say? The Christian life is no easy road to tread. Because it is absolute truth, it excludes everything that isn't- including homosexuality. Besides prayer, which many have encouraged you to do...and studying the Bible as cbwing0 has done, i think it is important to attend church. It is the family of Christ that we find support for our walk with Christ. Don't want to feel this way? Well, you know what to do...
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Postby Fsiphskilm » Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:52 pm

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You don't know God... So don't assume that evryone in the world is going to hell except for Christians. That's a load of BS...

Heaven is for the poor, the suffering, and many others who aren't christian. And God isn't some Cold-Hearted Jelious God that sends a poor soul to hell. So stop assuming all Gays, all atheists, all Other religions go to hell. Becuase the sad truth is that I know Sinner who deserve Heaven More than Some christians I know.

You don't know God... Don't assume anything

Being Christian is your RESERVATION into the kingdom of Heaven. And I'm possitive that God wil accept those who are searching with their hearts. Pure people that at least try but didn't make it. Poeple that are unaware of the Reservation but God knows if they knew...they
d take it.

The Much Stereotyped "Born Again - Movement" which is slowly being turned into a CULT. Is what's keeping this idea of "Heaven is for Christians ONLY" This movement is the same one that's pushing the idea of Catholics Running the world and being the anti-christ
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Postby cbwing0 » Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:31 pm

Volt wrote:You don't know God... So don't assume that evryone in the world is going to hell except for Christians. That's a load of BS...

We may not know God as much as we would like, but we do know His Word (the Bible), and in His Word, it says, "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

The Bible also says, "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life]And God isn't some Cold-Hearted Jelious God that sends a poor soul to hell.[/quote]
Actually, we are told, "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God" (Deuteronomy 4:24).

If there is anything that we can know about God, it is that no one comes to him except through His Son, Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that anyone can have an outward appearance of morality and kindness, but all have sinned. For this reason, we needed Christ's sacrifice on the cross to atone for our sin.

If we could be saved apart from Christ, then his death on the cross was unnecessary, and thus the greatest injustice in the history of the world. That is why we must never tire of spreading the gospel; for this is how the vast majority of people learn about Christ.

Think of it this way: if we could be enter heaven apart from Christ (you even mention that "atheists," who don't even believe in God, let alone His Son), for whatever reason, then telling people about Christ would actually be an evil deed. Think about it: if people did hear the gospel, they would be liable for rejecting it, but it they never heard it, they would still have a chance at salvation. Of course, this is absurd.

I am surprised and saddened that you would express such heretical, unbiblical doctrine.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:39 pm

I feel there is a certain chance that Volt expressed his opinion more strongly than he intended, and in the process unintentionally drifted into heresy. However, I would ask that he respond via PM if such is the case, or even if such is not. The issue of predestination is a distinctly doctrinal one, and should not be discussed here. Unless this discussion ceases this thread will be closed.

Allow me to say this, however: what does it matter? Regardless of whether there is an elect or not, how can this possibly affect truths relative to a God that is beyond time, hence exists at the time of said "predestination" and also when they "make their choice"? Above all, because we cannot know the future, how will this doctrine change the way you act and treat others in or outside of the body of Christ?
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Postby ClosetOtaku » Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:40 pm

<clipped>

In the end, the Judge of the Universe will do right.

<clipped>
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -- C.S. Lewis
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Postby ClosetOtaku » Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:43 pm

Sorry, UC, I was responding to the penultimate post. (Our posting times are 1 min apart.) Did not mean to continue the argument against your directions.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -- C.S. Lewis
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Postby uc pseudonym » Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:44 pm

I understand that completely. Your post does contain a few very important sentiments, and I will edit the parts that could contribute to an argument. But I think you said what was really important in thinking about this.

All this having been said, could we please return to the discussion at hand? I apologize for the disrailment of a very serious thread.
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Postby cbwing0 » Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:46 pm

Without getting into a debate, let me say that I too believe that God will do right when he judges the earth. The problem is, God's standard of goodness is much higher than that of the average person: goodness to God is nothing less than perfection. None of us are perfect, and that is precisely why we need Christ.
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Postby Fsiphskilm » Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:41 pm

My point still stands...Uncertain, but still standing strong.

Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The bible also mensions The suffering poeple, and especially the Children. That heaven belongs to them, the bible doesn't say anything about wheather the Poor, suffering, or children are saved or secular. It says what it says.

And I think As christians we sometimes want to feel like we are at some kind of Exclusive membership only club. To feel special and important we Show no mercy to the very people whom DESERVE Heaven.

cbwing0 wrote:We may not know God as much as we would like, but we do know His Word (the Bible), and in His Word, it says, "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

The Bible also says, "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life]anything[/i] that we can know about God, it is that no one comes to him except through His Son, Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that anyone can have an outward appearance of morality and kindness, but all have sinned. For this reason, we needed Christ's sacrifice on the cross to atone for our sin.

If we could be saved apart from Christ, then his death on the cross was unnecessary, and thus the greatest injustice in the history of the world. That is why we must never tire of spreading the gospel; for this is how the vast majority of people learn about Christ.

Think of it this way: if we could be enter heaven apart from Christ (you even mention that "atheists," who don't even believe in God, let alone His Son), for whatever reason, then telling people about Christ would actually be an evil deed. Think about it: if people did hear the gospel, they would be liable for rejecting it, but it they never heard it, they would still have a chance at salvation. Of course, this is absurd.

I am surprised and saddened that you would express such heretical, unbiblical doctrine.


This is true, I read it over and agree I didn't use very good expression. I made it sound like everyone can get a free ride... I'm just saying because I know many perspectives, Long ago I was that Child, I was that Sufferer, I was the "closet fag" trying to fight for my morality.

and if I died before I won my war, If my search was over before I found Salvation, God knows I tried, I did my best and if I had more time I would of made it, and I did make it. So here I am, going around changing the way people think, making them think more open, more mercyful. Am I really Such a Heretic for protecting the Children of Heaven?


Am I a "BAD CHRISTIAN" because I don't go around saying "THOUT SHALL BE THIS AND THOU SHALL BE THAT?"

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I'm leaving CAA perminantly. i've wanted to do this for a long time but I've never gathered the courage to let go.
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Postby EireWolf » Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:20 pm

Volt, the truth is that NOBODY "deserves" Heaven. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Christians will not go to Heaven because they're better than everyone else -- they will go to Heaven because they've accepted the gift that God has given them through His Son.

I do sympathize with your view. I would love to believe that no one will go to Hell. It's a nice thing to believe. But "nice" and "true" are not always synonymous. How can you say atheists will go to Heaven when God's word says this: "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14)

Only God knows who will be with Him in paradise. It is not for us to judge -- only God knows the hearts of each of us, including self-proclaimed atheists. Regardless, Christ commanded His followers to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matt 28:19-20)

You're right that the greatest thing is love. We are to love EVERYONE, including non-Christians. And part of that love is telling them the truth. Not pounding our Bibles and shouting at them and calling them hellbound sinners... but telling them the Truth that we know. Not judging them for not yet knowing the Truth, for we were once where they are... But not being afraid to tell them the Truth.
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