Harry Potter controversy

[Technomancer]

Yes, the universe presented by Lovecraft is not one that leaves any room for Christian hope. It is at once both incomprehensible and utterly indifferent to humanity. However, I cannot think of anyone (including myself) who would for a moment consider taking theological instruction from something bought at a comic book store.

More importantly, as threats to Christian belief books like these are in the main pretty weak. If books like Harry Potter and others have a stronger hold on people's imagination than they ought, it is not a problem of the books, but rather one of the society in which they were written. We today live in a society where the overriding paradigm seems to be 'I Want', or what Sir Kenneth Clark termed 'Heroic Materialism'. The society we have built, of shopping malls, bland communityless suburbs, a world that sees no more greater good than the economic is to me far more corrosive to faith, and to the message of the Gospel than any number of supernatural fiction writers, or their hack fanficcers.

[uc pseudonym]

I'd mentioned whoever wrote "His Dark Materials." Gary Paulsen (I think). Anyone else ever read the series? I didn't particularly like it, but not because of the anti-Christian elements.

[HeavensTek]

I cannot think of anyone (including myself) who would for a moment consider taking theological instruction from something bought at a comic book store.

good words

[Technomancer]

It's Gary Pulman, but close enough. I've read them and thought they were fairly well done. It's true that the books were written from a strongly atheist viewpoint, and that this view colours the message of the books. However, it should not be taken to diminish the literary quality of the novels.

[uc pseudonym]

Well, that's your opinion, I won't argue with you. I guess they just really weren't my type of book.

[MyrrhLynn]

Well... I am going to go back to the Harry Potter converstation if you don't mind.

Since I am the oldest in the family I got the job of "reading the HP books so you can make sure your younger sister isn't reading trash" this is a job I have had before and I have to admit I have now become a Harry Potter fan. One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is that she got the "prefect" word from the bible. Go and check out Daniel, and see what kind of people they were.

Not really much I want to add (or can for the matter since everyone has done an excellent job ) but I did want to say that I agree that J.K. Rowling writing is going downhill a little (and she is making the books darker as she goes). I also agree that Harry Potter is a bad role model, if he was my kid I would ground him for a very long time. (and his wand would be taken away during the grounding )

I think as long as kids don't get obsessed or start trying to act like Harry, everything will be fine. And at this point with the books coming out farther apart I don't think the obsessed thing will be as much of a problem.

On positive thing out of the Harry Potter mania is that they considered making new movies about the Tales of Narnia. Haven't heard anything recently about this though so I don't know if it will happen.

[shooraijin]

> However, I cannot think of anyone (including myself) who would for a moment consider taking theological instruction from something bought at a comic book store.

Quite so, and as you said in another post, there is a certain literary value to them. Nevertheless, while I have specific concerns about Lovecraft, I'll just close my points there.

[majanthehun]

(opinionated majan jumps in, bound to make SOMEONE mad)....

i have read all the first four HP books, and i think that they are poorly written. not only that, i also beleive that it's another way that satan is tryng to "demoralize" or "desensitize" the world to witchcraft, immorality, violence, etc.

all i can say Isaiah 5.20- Woe to those who call good evil and evil good; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

we all know (i would hope) that God calls Witchcraft bad. Deuternonomy 18.10-12: There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.

so if God calls witchcraft bad, and its obvious that those who call evil, good will have woe, why on EARTH would you want to say that its okay to read HP, so blatantly full of witchcraft?

just a thought...

sorry, i didn't mean to turn this into a theology lesson, but when in doubt, go to the Word. i found it odd that noone went to the Bible earlier.

[Technomancer]

First, the question of the books' literary merits (or lack thereof) is primarily a matter of personal taste. Noone's going to make you like Harry Potter, just like noone's going to make me like Left Behind

Second, the question of tolerating witchcraft. Majan's objection is the same as many objections to anime. Quite a lot of the anime that is discussed on this site does contain material that could be construed as 'occult' or witchcraft depnding on who you ask. Better toss out those Inuyasha DVD's just to safe hm?.

Now, arguably there is little resemblance between magic presented in anime and that in the bible. Come to think of it, the resemblance is at times pretty strained between anime and local Japanese religious traditions. The same with Harry Potter. Any serious student of mythology or religion will tell you that the HP books bear almost no resemblance to the practices of pagan Europe much less to those of the ancient near east. The books simply follow standard literary conventions in their portrayal of the subject.

There is also the question of Satan using these books for his own purposes. Do you mean that he is using the writer, or the fans? If the former you are essentially accusing Rowling (a professed Christian) of being in league with the prince of darkness. If the latter, then how is this any different than anything else in the world (sports, money, etc)?

Also, you may find this write up of some use:
http://www.steugene.org/harry_potter.html

[Michael]

Why trust a Satanist web site?

Their books. People who get obssesed with Lovecraft are usually from broken family's.

I've tried to read a Anne Rice novel and all I have to say is it's a steaming pile of manure.

Stephen King is actually very good. Read ''The Stand'' and tell me it's a Satanist book.

God commanded that witches be burned because they followed a different diety.

[majanthehun]

good points, all... you're right, the literary side of Rowling is in the eye of the beholder.

to counter point by point, you're right... some anime does have occultic leanings. thats why i don't watch anime with that subject matter. my convicitons on that are not necessarily anyone elses.

next point- regardless of weather the occultic pracitces spoken of in HP are realistic or not, the point remains the same... just because something looks evil but isn't really doesn't make it better than the real deal. May i remind you that Jesus said that even looking at a woman lustfully is the same thing as commiting adultary with her. anything involving the occult is negative, even if its not exactly accurate.

on Rowling's christianity, i have a hard time beleiving that!! i know lots of people who are "professed Chrisitans" yet who are not! i'm not going to say that Rowling is a lying heathen who is going to hell (for it's not my place to make that assumption) but i will say that i have a hard time beleiving it. on accusing Rowling of being in leauge with "the prince of darkness", may i remind you... if your not for Him, you're against Him. satan can and will use anyone that he can to further his cause.

i eagerly await the next rebuttal.

[BrianC]

IMO, this is an ongoing debate. You either like Harry Potter or you don't. BTW, there are books and sites out there that are far more occultic than Harry Potter. There are also lots of books out there that are similar to Harry Potter that get far less contraversy. Things shouldn't be judged by popularity rather than actual content.

Why is it these contraversial topics always last longer than they should? The points have already been made. This topic should have ended a long time ago. I know this is too much to ask, but would you mind ending this topic now with my post being the last reply? I don't think there is anything more to discuss on this issue that hasn't been said.

[madphilb]

Good point Brian, but I think I'll try and sneak in the last word... I know that Debate here is often frowned upon because it ends up rather nasty (it usually ends up in hair pulling and name calling, so to speak).

Arguments for this stuff is often based on personal perspective (including the initial opinion/feeling about the book, movie, etc). People will argue (as was just done) that we're to avoid even the appearance, then will read Tolken, Lewis or many other books.

When one of the deciples asked about another, Yeshua (Jesus) told them to mind their own business... yet we often feel it is our business to tell others what God is telling them to do/not do, watch/not watch, etc. Noone can see into the heart of others... best we can hope to do is keep a close eye on the fruit.

As for the books becomming darker as they go.... well, I'm sure that the 3rd installment of Lord of the Rings is a sunny walk on the beach, right?

On a final note, I noticed in the latest book that Harry seems to be reaping a bit of what he's sewed, maybe not, but that's how it seemed to me.

PHIL

[Technomancer]

You'll have trouble taking those quotes in isolation, and using them persuasivly. Deuteronomy has all kinds of regulations, do you follow all of them? Probably not. I'm not saying that actual, literal magic is permissible (assuming you could ever find it). However, these prohibitions were addressed to a specific group of people in a specific time. They were given the great gift (and burden) of preserving God's word through the ages. At the same time, the ancient Hebrews were a small, poorly developed people living at the crossroads of the ancient world, and embedded among many other much more powerful nations. Under these circumstances it would have been easy for them to have been submerged, and lost without such strong prohibitions. It is worth noting that the verses you quoted were both from times of great stress, once early in their arrival as a nation (Deuteronomy), and once when they were held captive in Babylon (Isaiah).

The fantasies that are written today are just that, fantasies. They make us think of a time when the world really was magical, in the fullest sense of the word. Most of us thought this way when we were children.

There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight,
To me did seem
Apparelled in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream.
It is not now as it hath been of yore;--
Turn wheresoe'er I may, By night or day,
The things which I have seen I now can see no more.
(Bonus points if you know the poem!)

Do they contain magic? Certainly, but only of a kind that is proper to the 'world' in which they are set. Certainly one may eschew them on such a basis, but to do so is to also toss out Peter Pan, Cinderella, MacBeth, and many other classics of literature. Tolkien too, truth be told. That some of these stories are non-christian in origin and tone is not important. The Church has a long history of turning pagan symbols and stories to its own uses, and this is no different. With Harry Potter the case is simpler since the stories do have a strong ethical component, not just of good versus evil, but of friendship, loyalty, courage and self-sacrifice.

[EireWolf]

When one of the deciples asked about another, Yeshua (Jesus) told them to mind their own business... yet we often feel it is our business to tell others what God is telling them to do/not do, watch/not watch, etc. Noone can see into the heart of others... best we can hope to do is keep a close eye on the fruit.

Very good point, madphilb. And I think it really depends on the child who's reading it, too. In some children it seems to produce rebellion of some kind, but in others it only produces the love of reading a good story.

Technomancer -- Who wrote that poem? (*do i get bonus points for admitting ignorance?*)

[uc pseudonym]

Very little to add here, I'll try to keep this short.

I'd be skeptical of Rowling's Christianity as well. Not really because of anything regarding her books, but what I've read of her in interviews. If she has faith, it's of the "I mark a box on a question page and that's about it" variety.

Oh, and about being darker. Obviously, 4 was darker than the others (Voldemort's revival). But 5 wasn't, really. Just more serious and less petty. Things about the fate of the world, not about who wins the House Cup (Harry's house won! Oh my goodness! I never expected that!). People call this "darker" but I actually like it a bit more.

[madphilb]

If this starts up again, I'm filing for horse abuse.

ROFL.....

That's a good one, I'll have to remember that....

PHIL

[uc pseudonym]

I saw someone else had posted here, and I started to get worried... but that's fine. Thanks.

[supa dupa ninja]

Or give you candy.

Anyway, I only know about Harry Potter from various articles I've read. I've never read them, and probably never will - they're a little below my age bracket. However, and this is a completely contrived conclusion on my part - I don't care for JK Rowling - especially when she is compared to phenomenal writers such as Tolkien and Lewis.

When my younger cousin was into the HP books, he almost immediately began diving into occultic things. Books, hard-core magic games, you name it, and he was after it. He even went around at school telling people that he wasn't a Christian any more. This broke my heart, because I'm his mentor of sorts, and we ended up spending hours discussing why Christ was different from Buddah, and why he wanted be a druid like some of our ancestors were. He said there were higher powers over God and that I just wasn't ready to believe in them. All of this from a twelve year old.

Very recently, something happened between him and God, and he tossed all of his magic cards, a lot of books, and even a few movies. I've actually been helping him write a fantasy-style allegory.

So, when someone asks me what I think of Harry Potter books, I can give my qualified disapproval because of the situation I just spoke of. Are the books evil in themselves? Maybe, maybe not, but it's what they can lead to is the real problem.

Often, I think and speak in analogies. So here's one for this topic:

Handing a kid a HP book is like handing someone the key to a serial killer's cell door. It may be used to unlock something that really should be left alone.

I can already foresee this topic going to the question of "Well, what makes Harry Potter books different from other fantasy books?" but I'll tackle that question only if it arises.

kids today are so easy to influence. just like that episode in king of the hill where bobby was dragged along by hardcore magic players.
<imitates old man voice> why back in the day, we used to play poker and magic the gathering and still go to church uncorrupted.

[Zarn Ishtare]

oh God in heaven, Save us from HP flame wars! I suggest this conversation is moved to THeologyweb, since this is a religious debate more than a debate on the quality of liturature. as for all the people who say harry potter leads to the occult, this can swing both ways. I was saved long before HP, and I'm still saved after it. People who use harry potter as a gateway were already looking for power; this just made it more obvious a way to take. As for you few people hating the writing style of HP, one word is used......NYAH!

[JediSonic]

Uhhhh.... why did you just grave-dig a topic so you could ask for it to be closed?

[Zarn Ishtare]

this is old? (Gulp) I really need to start looking at dates.....(Sweatdrops)

[JediSonic]

yeah the last post before you was from september

[Technomancer]

Does thread necromancy count as practicing the occult?

[Zarn Ishtare]

Technomancer, that was an evil joke....(runs to the Trashcan lair)

[Zarn Ishtare]

[Ashley]

Mmmmkay, I guess I need to lock this before anyone else accidentally opens up a flame war zone. Off it goes to the archives now.