Christian goths??

[cbwing0]

I would not consider myself to be a goth. Goth fashions do not appeal to me (largely as a result of their lack of function), and I do not make a habit of participating in the negative elements of the goth lifestyle.

Your appreance reflects who you are on the inside.

I believe that there is more truth in this statement than you realize. Although some of you may not consider yourself to be goths, that does not mean that others do not perceive you as such]do [/i]judge others based on their appearance. As Christians, we know not to judge in this way, but most non-Christians have not been taught this, and they are the people that we are trying to reach with the gospel. For that reason alone, one should carefully consider the consequences and implications of wearing goth clothing.

Be honest: is "possible Christian" the first thing that enters your mind when you see a goth? Given that the goth lifestyle is tied to a number of un-Christian beliefs and worldviews (militant atheism, nihilism, occultism, etc.), I seriously doubt that this is the case. This is particularly true of adults, who know much less about goths than teens and preteens.

There may be a Goth attitude, but I do not see it in a lot of goths. Most of those that I know are happy, cheerful people. Of course this is not surprising, since deliberately being depressed and gloomy all of the time is foolish. However, even those that have pleasant personalities tend to hold very liberal beliefs, as well as those worldviews that I have already mentioned.

Finally, remember this:

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone; Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king" (1 Peter 2:13-17).

Our soceity tells us not to care what other people think, but rather to "be ourselves" (which usually involves the purchase of several mass-produced items to confirm our chosen identity). Such a teaching is not found in the Bible. In contrast, we are told not to use our freedom as a license to do evil; and that, if we do something that causes our brother to stumble, we are sinning. Examine youselves: if you wear goth clothing, why do you do it? Does such clothing facilitate witnessing, or is it an obstacle that must be overcome?

[EireWolf]

The fact is, people do judge others based on their appearance. As Christians, we know not to judge in this way, but most non-Christians have not been taught this, and they are the people that we are trying to reach with the gospel. For that reason alone, one should carefully consider the consequences and implications of wearing goth clothing.

On the other hand... aren't we also trying to reach Goths with the gospel? I know a girl who dresses in Goth style who has the ability to reach Goths, partly because of how she dresses. She can reach people that you could not... likewise, you can reach people that she probably could not.

"The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." (1 Samuel 16:7b)

[Vash is a plant]

It can and yet it can't. Our outside should reflect our inside, otherwise we are wearing a mask, unfortunantly this is a very hard thing, few including myself can not do this.

By looking 'goth', as it is defined by our sociaty today, people get the impression that the person is depressed, angsty, etc. Which if on the inside you are filled to the brim with joy that is given through Christ, this look does not fit. It works in visa versa.

Because people are so different, they can not be labled, or stereotyped. As a sociaty, we need to move past catagorizing people with one word. It just doesn't work that way.

[Vash is a plant]

I guess a person who needs to get over themselves, and cheer up, and more importantly needs the Lord. If they have the Lord, they need prayer.

Do keep in mind though, that some of those people may have clinical depression or other mental illnesses. In those cases, it's not a matter of getting over themselves, but a matter of getting help. Sometimes, just "cheering up" doesn't work..

[Syreth]

This is an interesting thread. It's also an interesting thing to think about. I've always seperated who you really are on the inside and how you dress. I would say that if the way you are dressing is reflective of something wrong on the inside, then that's something that should be changed. But if it's a matter of personal taste, then there's nothing wrong with it. It's good to have a moderate attitude about cultural boundaries, though, if you get what I mean.

But as for the goth and Christian at the same time thing... It has to do with your heart. You can be a Christian and have a dark, negative view of the world and it doesn't make you a non-Christian. I'm not saying that it's good or encouraging that, but Christians can have bad attitudes too. As for just being a more negative person... I don't think there's anything wrong with that to a degree, because some people just think different ways... like how they can't do something rather than how they can do something. Some people are rational and some people are ambitious. These can both be good. Everyone has their view on these things, and it's cool because it's helped me to reflect on what I think.

[Golden_Griff]

The fact is, people do judge others based on their appearance. As Christians, we know not to judge in this way, but most non-Christians have not been taught this, and they are the people that we are trying to reach with the gospel. For that reason alone, one should carefully consider the consequences and implications of wearing goth clothing.

Be honest: is "possible Christian" the first thing that enters your mind when you see a goth? Given that the goth lifestyle is tied to a number of un-Christian beliefs and worldviews (militant atheism, nihilism, occultism, etc.), I seriously doubt that this is the case. This is particularly true of adults, who know much less about goths than teens and preteens.

Hmm...good point. Honestly (before I learned more about the goth style) the word Christian was the last thing that came to my mind whenever I would see a gothic person. *Griff is enlightened by the posts of others*

Well, I thought I'd share this seeing that we're on the topic of outward appearance:

[color=blue]A lady once told me that she was on the front porch with her dog and a nextdoor neighbor. They were outside talking when this group of teenagers came walking by her house. The teens were goths, dressed in black colors, wearing black makeup, etc. "Weirdos" she called them. The whole time that this group of gothic teenagers were passing by this lady's house, her dog just kept silent and laid on the porch watching them.

But suddenly the lady heard her dog making a very low growl in her throat and it's fur began to rise up. The woman looked up but she didn't see anything. Then her dog went mad]

Well, that's her story not mine. But I thought it was interesting. Still think the outside reflects the inside?

[Shao Feng-Li]

Well, that's her story not mine. But I thought it was interesting. Still think the outside reflects the inside?

Well if the bible says so then it's true plain and simple. But there is such a thing as deception. I know all to well. PM me and I'll tell you... Maybe...

Well, overall, I think I totally agree with cbwing0.

[cbwing0]

Well, that's her story not mine. But I thought it was interesting. Still think the outside reflects the inside?

I'm not in the habit of being persuaded by morality tales, since they can be constructed to teach anything at all.

At any rate, I think there are a few more important lessons to draw from the story in question. The first concerns the appearance of evil: "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masuquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14). The story reminds us that evil can appear a good. However the story and the verse imply that there is in fact a certain appearance that can be called "good," as opposed to one that is typically evil. Then the question becomes, is it better to adopt the apperance of unrighteousness in spite of your nature, or to adopt a modest and pleasant appearance to match your inner light? The goths in the story only look acceptable when juxtaposed with the demonic girl.

In contrast to the story, the Bible is clear in stating, "But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God" (1 Peter 2:20). If other people think ill of you for wearing goth fashions, all you have is a certain smug satisfaction that they are wrong, despite the fact that they would be justified in thinking otherwise based on your appearance. How much better would it be if you risked ridicule for doing good (that is, sharing the gospel and defending your faith)?

If this is not enough to convince you that appearances matter, consider this:

"But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak" (1 Corinthians 8:7-9).

In this passage, we see that something can have the apperance of sin, even though it is left to our discretion. As long as it is modest (which raises another question, since a lot of goth clothing is designed to draw attention to oneself), our clothing does not make us more or less righteous before God. Unfortunately, we are not trying to reach God with the gospel, but rather the flawed human beings that surround us every day. That is why it is important to have an apperance of righteousness to match a heart of righteousness.

Finally, consider this:

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" (Matthew 6:19-24).

Focusing on the last part of the passage, we must be careful in how we spend our time, and what we do with that time. Although you may be strong enough to resist the negative elements of goth culture, why tempt yourself needlessly? Furthermore, once you start spending significant amounts of money on goth clothing, you begin to develop an attachment to it that may be very difficult to break.

The question is not whether goth clothing is acceptable, but whether it is the best way that you could choose to present yourself: "Everything is permissible for me'--but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible for me'--but I will not be mastered by anything" (1 Corinthians 6:12). While goth clothing is technically accceptable, it is difficult to justify it as beneficial, even for the purpose of witnessing to those immersed in goth culture.

Perhaps you feel that you have a special calling to witness to those immersed in goth culture. In this case, it could be seen as beneficial: "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings" (1 Corinthians 9:22-23). Still you have to ask yourself: if you continue to wear goth clothing, are you doing it simply to avoid having to change, or as a legitimate missionary effort?

[Jaltus-bot]

As for just being a more negative person... I don't think there's anything wrong with that to a degree, because some people just think different ways... like how they can't do something rather than how they can do something. Some people are rational and some people are ambitious. These can both be good.

I Can Do All Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me - Phillipians 4:13.

Being very negative adds stress which wears down the immune system and our physocal bodies. God cares about us holistically, body, mind, spirit. We need to be aware of when our attitudes are having negative effects on us, otherwise why bother reading the Bible or praying, it's not like it would do us any good. Just as being overly optomistic can lead a person to not prepare for things, being overly negative can lead us to fail to see the blessings that we have been given. We need a balenced, realistic view of things, acknowledging the power of God and ways of this imperfect world.

[Jaltus-bot]

What are the elements of goth dress that you know of? Can any of them be applied in ways that are in accord with Christianity? How can it or can't it?

[uc pseudonym]

The word "goth" has a broad variety of meanings, depending on the social setting and who is using the term. Elderly individuals call anyone a goth if they wear mostly dark colors (I speak only of the 60+ people I am familiar with). Other people use it only in the black lipstick and fishnet sense.

In essence, I would say the answer varies extremely widely. Read what cbwing0 wrote on the subject. If you feel like your attire does not hurt your Christian message, I don't see why there would a problem with it.

[Zedian]

I myself am not a goth but I have friends that are, and they actually are in no way oppressive or full of remorse in their lives, even if they look like Robert Smith.

I just dislike how other people judge them, merely based on their outward appearences...but I guess with all 'stereotypes' it's something in the end that is going to be unavoidable.

Cbwing made some very well and validated comments, though again if you don't feel spiteful or angered inside, and it's a 'fashion statement' than I see it ok. Even though we live in a social world where people who are considered to be 'hardcore', will outlandishly make rude gestures at people who only dress goth just for appearence.

[Jasdero]

Er.. I would have to agree with some of what the others said. It depends on what you mean by "goth."

[c-girl]

The clothing and stuff doesn't matter i think... it's just that when they are into magic, ya know like they think they have some kinda powers. Or if they do all that satanic stuff... It's really creepy.. But how they dress doesn't really matter.