Harry Potter controversy

[Spazzy-chan]

Harry Potter receives a blessing
By NICK PISA in Rome
05feb03

HARRY Potter gained an important ally yesterday in his battle with the vile sorcerer Voldemort.

The Vatican gave its approval to the tales of the schoolboy wizard, saying they emphasise the victory of good over evil and are unlikely to lead youngsters down the path to witchcraft.
Several religious groups have criticised J.K. Rowling's best-selling books, claiming the goings on at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry glamorise the occult.

One Church of England head-teacher in Kent went so far as to ban the Potter tales and order pupils not to read them.

But yesterday Father Peter Fleetwood, a British priest at the Vatican, said Roman Catholics could enjoy the books with a clear conscience.

"I don't think any of us grew up without the imaginary world of fairies, magicians, angels and witches," he told a conference at the Vatican.

"They are not bad or a banner for anti-Christian ideology. If I have understood well the intentions of Harry Potter's author, they help children understand the difference between good and evil."

He added that J.K. Rowling, who married in 2001 and is expecting her second child, is "Christian by conviction, is Christian in her mode of living, even in her way of writing".

Ms Rowling's four Harry Potter titles have sold an estimated 192 million copies worldwide, and the books have been published in at least 55 languages.

The first two books, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone and Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, have been adapted into two of the most successful movies to date with child actor Daniel Radcliffe starring as Harry.

Filming starts shortly on the third, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. The fifth book in the series, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, is not yet out but advance orders have already given it record-breaking sales.

It will be issued on June 21, a Saturday, so that Harry's younger fans will not take time off school to catch up on their hero's exploits.

At more than 250,000 words, it is a third longer than its predecessor Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

I think this says a lot, I myself am a big fan of HP as well as fantasy anime and manga. Just really liked this article and thought I would share.

[Benu]

Not to offend anyone but I think Harry Potter is just plain trash. Nuff Said.

[Zal-Utaon III]

I reads the first book and it was boreing and stupid not enough action to keep my attension. I can find more action in Ed Edd n Eddy.
Besides im to lazy to flip 600 pages times 5 books

[majanthehun]

when an official Satanism website lists things/people who are going to lead people down the occult road, and they list only three authors: Anne Rice, Steven King, and J.K. Rowling, i think i'm going to avoid anything written by them.

the occult aside, HP is poorly written- it's not Bunyan, it's not Melville, it's not Hemmingway. the writing itself is unpolished, rocky, confusing... it's childlike. the woman doesn't know how to write.

i just don't like them.

sorry for stepping on toes. i do that.

[Zal-Utaon III]

could that be why she was on welfare?
sorry couldnt help... go ahead hit me

[majanthehun]

now THAT'S comedy!!

[Gypsy]

could that be why she was on welfare?
sorry couldnt help... go ahead hit me

Or give you candy.

Anyway, I only know about Harry Potter from various articles I've read. I've never read them, and probably never will - they're a little below my age bracket. However, and this is a completely contrived conclusion on my part - I don't care for JK Rowling - especially when she is compared to phenomenal writers such as Tolkien and Lewis.

When my younger cousin was into the HP books, he almost immediately began diving into occultic things. Books, hard-core magic games, you name it, and he was after it. He even went around at school telling people that he wasn't a Christian any more. This broke my heart, because I'm his mentor of sorts, and we ended up spending hours discussing why Christ was different from Buddah, and why he wanted be a druid like some of our ancestors were. He said there were higher powers over God and that I just wasn't ready to believe in them. All of this from a twelve year old.

Very recently, something happened between him and God, and he tossed all of his magic cards, a lot of books, and even a few movies. I've actually been helping him write a fantasy-style allegory.

So, when someone asks me what I think of Harry Potter books, I can give my qualified disapproval because of the situation I just spoke of. Are the books evil in themselves? Maybe, maybe not, but it's what they can lead to is the real problem.

Often, I think and speak in analogies. So here's one for this topic:

Handing a kid a HP book is like handing someone the key to a serial killer's cell door. It may be used to unlock something that really should be left alone.

I can already foresee this topic going to the question of "Well, what makes Harry Potter books different from other fantasy books?" but I'll tackle that question only if it arises.

[MasterDias]

when an official Satanism website lists things/people who are going to lead people down the occult road, and they list only three authors: Anne Rice, Steven King, and J.K. Rowling, i think i'm going to avoid anything written by them.

I don't see how HP is going to get anyone seriously involved with the occult since the "magic" in HP is about as occultic as Alice in Wonderland...

unless maybe if some unknowing kid searches for "witchcraft" on Google hoping to find a way to fly around on a broomstick or something and stumbles onto an occultic website. That would really be the only major concern I would have.

I haven't ever got around to reading them myself but I feel like I know enough about them to make a qualified decision.

[Technomancer]

Too true about the Pope and the Falwellists. Then again, it wasn't that long ago that Falwell went on about how Mother Theresa was going straight to hell, so his opinion doesn't cut much dice us either.

I've read all the Harry Potter books and enjoyed them. They're not especially deep, or much in the way of high-brow reading, but they're definately a cut above the average in terms of children's literature. They are primarily kid's books after all, and there's nothing wrong with that. More importantly, the books are instilling in children a real love of reading, and you have no idea how refreshing that is to hear. I grew up with plenty of people who took a positve pride in never having read a book that they weren't required to by way of their schoolwork.

As far as satanism/occult goes, I really don't see it. Like Fr. Fleetwood said, the elements that go into the Harry Potter books are the stuff of every kid's imagination. My advice for those unsure of the books is to read them for themselves. Don't rely on what anyone else says (and yes I put this into practice; I've even read 'Left Behind')

[inkhana]

I haven't read them myself (and have no real plans to) but I've heard that some of the rituals (or whatever) are actually modeled after real satanic rituals and thus a great deal of the concern. Is that true, or not, or does anyone know?

[Technomancer]

In terms of the 'spells' used definately not. They're nothing more than a sort of pseudo-latin made to sound fancy and magical. The rituals are pretty much the same sort as I've read in almost every popular fantasy. It's possible that they draw from some bastardized version of pagan rituals, although probably owing more to 19th century romanticist cranks than to any 'inside knowledge'.

There are those who claim to have been members of covens and say that such things are real. These people are, as far as I'm concerned, poseurs and cranks. Their claims are of the same order as those who claim to have been inside UFO's, seen Elvis, or discovered Atlantis.

[Saint]

I've been to Atlantis. Nice place. Big Casino.

[Technomancer]

[Saint]

As for HP, I think that anything we give value to will begin to influence our decisions. Lots of kids like or 'value' HP and that can affect them. I think it may only be a problem if that is the only thing that is of value. Like that and no christian beliefs or they switch over to that instead of christianity. Thats when i think they may start seeking out more than is in any HP book for themselves.

[Zal-Utaon III]

good point

[Technomancer]

I think it may only be a problem if that is the only thing that is of value.

Excellent point. In which case, the problem isn't the books themselves, but the lack of meaning in the life of the reader. They see something 'magical' that is lacking in their own life and latch on to it. The same can be said of those who seek validation in sports, or clothes and so forth.

[MasterDias]

And it also doesn't help much that it has been one of the most popular book series in years. A lot of kids could possibly become addicted to it because it's the "cool" thing to do. An over-addiction to anything isn't very healthy.

Still, I get annoyed when people write articles full of misinformation and illogical reasoning. I'm beginning to think that anything super-popular will instantly get a ton of articles written by Christians against it who often don't know what they are talking about. Pokemon was the same way. I remember there was some pretty absurd stuff written about that.

Harry Potter is one of the most contraversial topics among Christians today. Let's hope this doesn't turn into a seven page debate.

[Gypsy]

Let's hope this doesn't turn into a seven page debate.

As long as it's not a nasty debate. So far, opinions and views have been respected, and we can handle seven pages of that kind of discussion. However, if anyone feels the need to rant and rave in either direction, they'll be asked to take it to another forum.

But hey, so far so good.

[Kat]

I have read all the Harry Potter books and have seen both movies. I do plan on seeing any other film releases, and reading the rest of the series.

That said, I treat HP the same way I treat Japanese anime and manga. Whenever I talk about either with parents, I always recommend the parent investigate the book/movie/manga/anime first then decide whether their children should be exposed to it. As an adult, I have the maturity to make the decision on my own whether to watch or read certain material, but parents should monitor and be aware of what their children are reading/watching.

Personally I'm of the camp who feels HP is not as well done as anything Tolkein or Lewis or Lloyd Alexander wrote, but not, perhaps, as dangerous as some fear. This is only my humble opinion. I see the "magic" used in the book as no more than what a friend described as "wishcraft." What is important, is what kind of worldview have parents taught their children? What kind of basic values and morality have they given them, so that if they encounter this kind of book, will they be able to make an evaluation about it based on the kind of foundation their parents have laid in their lives?

I was raised in a very strong Christian home, and was exposed to a number of fantasy/sci-fi books and movies, and never strayed from the faith into the occult. Others, on the other hand, have had trials and temptations with it. So I personally feel that if you are not comfortable with reading this kind of material, stay away from it.

At the very least, reading the books have given me a feel for what appeals to kids these days, and one can say something positive about HP from this standpoint...at least evil is still being depicted as the ultimate loser and good is still being depicted as desirable and right.

Just my two cents worth.

--Kathleen :rolls_eye

[Technomancer]

I don't think the danger of "over-addiction" is too great. The books don't offer the same sort of over-stimulated visual crack that modern television or video games do. The hype will eventually settle down, leaving the books to stand on their own. In the end there are really worse things to expose children to than a love of books.

I don't like the merchandising that's true, but it's also a separate issue from the books. Of course, I'm sure lots of kids had Superman PJs or wallpaper, or some other gimcrackery associated with their favourite superhero.

Harry Potter is one of the most contraversial topics among Christians today

I honestly find that depressing. Consider the problems we face today: economic and political injustice, environmental degradation, globalization, and so on. Instead of facing these very real issues, people are sidetracked into fighting about whether a series of books about an English schoolboy are 'satanic'.

[uc pseudonym]

This is going to be more than two cents.

Eh, I did read Harry Potter. Mainly because I started as a really little kid, and got somewhat interested. I'm not obsessed in any way, but I know people who are, and eventually get the books from them.

I'm at least moderately able to talk of witchcraft things, but Technomancer has already covered that nicely. I'd add one other detail, however. I have seen people who have dove into witchcraft after reading both Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia (Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I'm thinking of). There's nothing wrong with these, but it can still cause this sad event.

One pet peeve I feel I must vent. While I do not believe that the Harry Potter books are excellent literature (and I think Rowling's writing is going downhill, which is odd), I disagree when people refer to it as literary trash. Why? Well, I'll get into that in just a second.

What are these things based upon? Our cultural values. You will find people who have said every generation of classic literature is trash. Perhaps we, with our older mindsets, look at these books and say they're worthless. But how many children will read these books, and refuse to read older material? How many of them look at Lord of the Rings and say "why is there so much useless description? It's excess baggage. The story seems to move really sluggishly." These people will grow up to be the new generation of literary critics. Where will our former values be then? (same way with language: how long is a grammatical rule really a rule when no one obeys it?) These things change, and I believe that people are strongly resistant to change. We'll continue to use our model to judge everything, thank you very much.

In addition, one last thing. I've seen many people promote the books as a battle between good versus evil. I'll get back to this in just a second, consider that the preface to the issue.

You know that book that basically boils down to "Harry Potter is evil?" I read it, because someone else wanted me to for the sake of helping other people. By large, I felt his arguments had no weight, but he made one very interesting point: Harry and co seem good only by contrast to extreme evil.

The books really don't teach all that great of values. Harry disobeys rules frequently and is either unpunished or rewarded for it. Those who do punish him are cast as "semi-bad guys." He can do whatever he wants, and is still the main character, and thus right and good and all. This appeals to kids, as they like that sense of power. For that matter, Harry casts crucio on someone in the most recent book (an unforgiveable crime, for those who don't read). It causes excruciating pain. Technically he deserves to be in jail. But that could never happen, because there are "bad guys" and while there are bad guys, the "good guys" can get away with anything.

I have no problem with anti-heroes. But in real life, that isn't a good thing. Especially for Christians. So I can read something like this as a story, but I would never want to draw truth out of it. Does that make sense?

[Benu]

I kinda get what your saying uc pseudonym. But I think I would stay away from a book written by a wiccan witch and a book that started taking to little kids in the middle of the night. Hope I don't offend anyone by saying this sorry if i Have.

[HeavensTek]

wow, i can't believe i'm seeing this topic on an anime forum.....



basically, i'd say make sure your kids are grounded in reality before they read em.......but that goes with anything. There are a lot worse things out there that will twist your kids then Harry Potter.....(like television, magazines, music, or movies).....

[Spiritsword]

I'm not going to post a book on this topic because I think Technomancer and ucpseudonym have pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter much more eloquently than I am capable of at this time of night.

As with most other "borderline" fictional works in anime or literature, if you can handle it and enjoy it simply as fiction, a simple pleasure, or a way to stimulate your imagination then in my opinion there is no problem with it. It is not the work itself so much as the individual reading and interpreting it (as others have already said). If someone were to begin confusing that fiction with reality, or giving it precedence over God, then yes, there is a problem. From what I have seen, in the vast majority of cases it is not a problem. Most kids are better at discerning reality and obvious fantasy than we give them credit for.

I personally have read all of the Harry Potter books, continually refer to them as "light, fun, reading," and don't feel justified in making qualitative judgments of another's literature based on my personal tastes. And for the record, I have read many of Stephen King's books and eagerly await the next in the "Dark Tower" series. I understand warning others of material they might find offensive, but I believe each individual should be left to determine what they feel is quality or "great" literature. Sometimes a simple book that helps you while away a cold winter night can be much "greater" than an acclaimed work of fiction. Sometimes what is great is what impacts you personally or brings you pleasure. Were I to list MY Top 10 animes vs. THE Top Ten animes, the lists would be very different. Same goes for books.

And I said I wasn't going to write a lot...

[shooraijin]

> when an official Satanism website lists things/people who are going to lead people down the occult road, and they list only three authors: Anne Rice, Steven King, and J.K. Rowling

You may add H.P. Lovecraft to that list. I've seen that author (and more ominously his many fans) mess up many lives by involving them in concepts and sci-fi/fantasy/occult issues that should never have been discussed, let alone created. I won't specify, but they can be truly horrific in scope, gore, detail and implication.

The real problem with Lovecraft is how many of his deranged fantasies have made it into more "mainstream" pursuits -- witness Call of Cthulhu at your local game shop, for example. Be very wary.

[Technomancer]

Benu, I don't know where you're getting your info, but you really need to check your sources (and better yet, avoid websites). J.K. Rowling, whatever her literary talents may be, is not a witch, she is in fact Presbyterian.

Also, I'd be more than a little skeptical of anyone who said their books were 'talking' to them.

PS. I like H.P. Lovecraft. I have never known anyone who has gone off the deep end due to sci-fi/fantasy gaming. Everyone I know involved who is involved gaming, is more or less well balanced. If anything, the people I know are more skeptical of occult claims, and a lot more scornful of people who can't straighten out the difference between reality and fiction. If people are getting sucked into strange fantasies, then it is a far more a result of pre-existing family or psychological problems than anything inherent in the games or stories.

PPS. Lovecraft's stories have nothing to do with any real concept of mythology or occult forces. They are entirely fictional. The man himself was a thoroughgoing atheist and skeptic. The stories themselves don't contain gore, sex or anything beyond sensible description. Those characters who do fiddle around with "occultish" forces in the stories almost always come to a very bad end.

[shooraijin]

> I have never known anyone who has gone off the deep end due to sci-fi/fantasy gaming.

I did *not* say sci-fi/fantasy gaming as a whole has caused people to go off the deep end (or else I've gone crazy myself) -- I said Lovecraft specifically. Also note that while I agree his fans have gone to greater lengths in the various fanfics than he went w/r/t content and intensity, although they are not in the official canon they tend to get linked together almost inextricably. As an example, some have expanded the Cthulhu world to the point of a considerably more developed and highly detailed mythos, and I find anything that looks deeply into a conceptual world that Lovecraft himself intended to be a description of evil to be disquieting.

[Lluvia]

To voice my opinion on the subject, Harry Potter is a good children's book above suspicion. However, slow children whom don't know how to diverge fiction from reality should be kept away... And to encapsulate the issue, Harry Potter is innocent, end of story. I've read the books, and the humor in it is VERY EVIDENT. (Not screaming, merely adjoining emphasis. )

They really are high-quality books for children, that is, above your everyday standard. ^^ And I have no trouble admitting that I enjoyed reading them.

[ShiroiHikari]

Well, I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm jumping in.

I personally don't like it. I read the first book and saw the first movie, didn't like them. I don't think JK Rowling is that great a writer either. She's -okay-. But she ain't no Tolkien or Lewis, that's for danged sure. Harry Potter doesn't entertain me.

-However-, I'd be darn careful letting my children read it. I'd sit 'em down and tell them how things are. Which is what any parent with a brain should do in the first place.

[shooraijin]

One more note on Lovecraft, since I just thought of this in bed (my more developed ideas come while I'm sleeping ). Let's say that people only limited themselves to the Lovecraft canon. While the forays into the world of the Old Ones are always portrayed negatively, the power of the Old Ones is always inviolate. There is no greater authority to appeal to than them (ignoring the Outer Gods which were created for the CoC RPG series, according to my information), and their effects on the people they come in contact with are viewed as negative (terrible) as well.

The concept of a world ruled by those sorts of beings aside, the overriding focus of the Lovecraft Cthulhu tales, let alone those by his correspondents and the fanfics, was on these beings nearly exclusively. I think C.S. Lewis' comment in The Screwtape Letters best exemplifies my concern: "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them." I think this last is where my worries with Lovecraft lie, because the canon focuses so intensely on them.