Where do you draw the line?

[Mimichan]

Hi everyone. I hope that I am posting this in the correct forum...if not, then I apologize in advance.
I would like to pose a question to "whoever" concerning where we draw the line in our viewing habits. Since I am new here and this is only my 2nd post...I haven't had a chance to get to know anybody or give any testimonies yet. Lemme just say that when I was "in the world" I was involved in Shamanism and Eastern Religious Rituals...meditations and Spirit guides,etc. I've messed with ouija boards and tarot cards and sacred vision quests.... Okay...that is all under the Blood of Jesus (amen). I have been redeemed and set free from these things and am a NEW creature in Christ Jesus and Baptized with the Holy Ghost. Well, back in those days, I didn't pay attn. to the anime I watched or the fanfics I read...yaoi, yuri, demonic..it didn't matter to me. Well, now it does matter. I don't want to watch anything that is going to grieve the Holy Spirit. Obviously, this means staying away from hentai or outright blashpemous anime. But what about the other ones? Some of them promote witchcraft, Eastern mythology, Mother Earth/Gaia philosophy, astrology, secular Humanism. Well, the Bible says that there is only one God, and one way to salvation. It also says that astrology, idolatry, and witchcraft (among other things) are an abomination to God. That being said....do you feel that it is okay to watch anime that contains such content? Some examples I can think of would be Sailor Moon, Fushigi Yuugi, Flame of Recca...Or what about Yu Yu Hakusho? or Kiki's Delivery Service? *okay..I've never seen "kiki's..." I havent seen YU Yu hakussho either and maybe thinking of Inuyasha (it's the one with the half-demon boy?...)* Oh yes, and lets not forget Slayers! Anyway, I am asking where you draw the line? This was not to create any debates. But I have heard professed Christians talk about RPG's and animes that I feel the Holy Spirit has absolutely forbidden me to view! I won't say I 'm not tempted at times. And there have been a few times I've had to repent. I have even gotten rid of games and anime that I REALLY liked...simply because I felt it wasn't pleasing to God...*not easy to do sometimes, esp. when its something you like*...but then I 'll hear other Christians talking about the very thing I felt so convicted over like it's no big deal. I don't think it's okay for me to playing D&D games, for example and I've read about other Christians who play it all the time and say it can be a tool to witness. Okay, just my opinion: but iznt that a bit like this example:
" Thanks for inviting me to this pagan ritual....you know as I stand here and sacrifice this Chicken with you to your false god Mobopobo...I am reminded of Christ's love for us and how he shed HIS blood ....."
I am sorry, but I don't think it works that way. And sorry also for being so long-winded, but this is really bothering me!! I need to find a balance with how to determine what is allowable. There are so many animes out there... How do you determine what's acceptable?
Okay, I am done now...gomen nasai

[Shinja]

thats a big question. but one ive asked myself many times. and its not one i can really give a sure answer to. i know most of my friends watch all kind of things i dont feel right watching, no matter how funny it is it still is wrong. i think if i were a better man id never watch tv again, and i think about doing that everyday. the only thing i can tell you is you have to debate it then dont watch it. if it has anything you wouldnt want God to see you watching then you shouldnt watch it. it sounds that simple but it never really is. personally im thinking heavily of not takeing my tv off to collage next semester, or at least not getting cable. pray about. and i will too.

[MillyFan]

Simply put, the line is drawn at your personal convictions and what your weaknesses are.

As for me, I can tolerate some fanservice if the plot and characters are strong simply because I'm not weak to that kind of thing 99.9 percent of the time.

I can tolerate some language if there's some kind of reasoning for it (i.e. a character is going through extreme emotional torment or really getting beat up on in a fight) because I know that one, it is wrong to use or even think any bad words in any situation in real life, and two, I've heard worse in everyday life in my family for much more mundane reasons.

As for the "magical" characters, I'm not convicted against that because most of it is so *obviously* fantastical and not corresponding to realities of such matters. If you actually believe that you can call a Dragon Slave to deal with a bunch of bullies wanting that funny necklace or that demons look like white-haired half puppy dogs half cute bishounen, then you have a *serious* problem that goes much deeper than anime.

However, I do have some convictions and I don't like the fact that you are painting all anime fans as people without convictions. Just because our convictions are not the same as yours does not make them any better or worse-it just means that we have had and have different experiences and different weaknesses. The convictions of a former New Ager are obviously different from those of a former scientific athiest skeptic. The convictions of a former Iranian fundamentalist Muslim are probably different from those of an American former hedonist pr0n freak.

Here are my convictions for the flaming, BTW if you're interested:

I am totally against hentai. I hate it. It's garbage. Enough said.

In the same vein, overly gratuitous fanservice with little or no story or where the story is totally overwhelmed by the fanservice is something I don't like. I don't know if you would call it a conviction per se or just the fact that I hate such things and would rather spend my time watching something with a little more substance. As an example, I don't much like Lupin the 3rd or FLCL. In fact, I severely dislike both.

Another conviction of mine is against excessive and pointless bad language. I can understand a character being not exactly saintly in speech when the love of his/her life has just died or he/she's facing off against an incredibly well-armed enemy bent on his/her death with a weapon that has no effect on it. However, a character screaming the worst the Japanese or English languages have to offer when he/she, say, bumps into someone or gets a bee sting, that's both against my Christian convictions and an affront to me as a writer.

Another conviction I have is when the magic/demons/etc actually correspond to real practices and put in a somewhat realistic setting. I don't watch those kind of animes. If a main "good" character is drawing pentacles and calling upon Satan for assistance, then I don't watch. This is one reason (among the others) that I don't like or watch H***sing.


It all comes down to convictions and personal weaknesses. I would compare it to living in Los Angeles in the summer. If you have lung problems, don't go out on a smoggy day because it could kill you-yet if you don't have lung problems, sealing yourself off from the slightest puff of smog is unnecessary.

[Technomancer]

Mostly I agree with what Milly said, your viewing choices depend on your personal conscience. Contentwise, I draw the line where the show becomes exploitative or where the violence/nudity is gratuitous (ie. is done for its own sake and has no real bearing on the plot). From personal experience, these sort of shows are pretty vapid plot-wise anyways; I don't feel I'm missing out on much.

I have no problems whatsoever with seeing depictions of other religious practices, or with watching standard "fantasy" elements. For that matter, I'd also consider that a serious, and honest study of other religions can be enomously enriching; the same goes for the mythology or folklore of other cultures.

[LorentzForce]

i can tolerate anything but porn.

i'll consider 'magic' as science that isn't researched enough to a point of it as a general knowledge, or only a few people knows it. so it really isn't bad in my conscience to watch Harrry cast his magic stuff and whatnot.

violence, i've been influenced too much, that and i did biology when i was little. i should have never saw that disecting-a-frog tape when i was 8... and i shouldn't have played C&C when i was 10... and i shouldn't have played Quake when i was 11... and i shouldn't have watched all those SF movies...

as for nudity, i'll tolerate it to a point where it becomes unnecessary, then i'll throw it away. porn is of course, too much.

language, same story as MillyFan.

in conclusion, i tolerate pretty much everything.

[Ashley]

I'd say the easiest way to know what is acceptable to God and what is not is to ask Him about it. In prayer, just ask Him to make you aware of His desires and feelings towards things like this. I'm sure He will honor your desire to please Him. Then, when you're actually watching something, don't shove aside your conscience. I'll give you an example; I was watching the Animatrix, and I felt something stir inside me. At first I just shoved it away because I knew in my mind I was old enough to handle everything shown. But eventually I gave in, stopped the dvd, and went to bed feeling much more at peace.
Now is that to say the animatrix is wrong for everyone? No. But it is to say that the Holy Spirit will nudge/urge you if you're willing to listen. I hope that helped.

[uc pseudonym]

I agree with Ashley and Millyfan in regard to my personal convictions. It's a question of what really causes you to stumble. Beyond that, I think I have three things to share, that may or may not be of any use to you.

Demonic aspects in anime always put me on edge, but it's important to remember that this is actually just the translation of the word oni. Oni doesn't really carry anywhere near the same type of connotations as the word demon does. Of course, some things will still bug me.

D&D, ultimately, is a system of numbers. While I think it is something that easily could be viewed as cross the line (and it is for me), I would not be so quick to condemn it. What determines the negative content is who is in charge of the game. Just because something can be used for evil means doesn't mean anything (there are cults that twist the Bible to mean truly horrible things).

Elements such as witchcraft, Eastern mythology, Mother Earth/Gaia philosophy, astrology and secular Humanism do bother me somewhat. I consider these far more dangerous that the more obvious things, such as demons. But what ultimately crosses the line for me is what it causes me to do. No Christian material is perfect, but that doesn't mean you refuse to read all Christian material. Of course, your questions says this in a way: that there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

[EireWolf]

Hi Iesu_no_Senshi. There are lots of good answers here. I just thought I'd add one more thing. Believe it or not, God doesn't actually treat all of us exactly the same way... because He KNOWS each of us intimately, and knows our strengths and weaknesses. Of course there are some absolutes (see the 10 Commandments), but the details can be different for each of us. Because of your background, it's probably not a good idea for you to watch anime containing the things you used to be involved in, because it may drag up old feelings and temptations in you. The same would not be a problem for me, because I have never been tempted by those things. See what I mean?

Better than my own words are the words of God through the apostle Paul. One of the main points in Romans 14 is this: "But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." I will post the whole chapter here; it's quite relevant.

Romans 14

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

[Rashiir]

Yah, Romans 14 is what I was going to point out. I think Paul repeats this bit in 1 Corinthians and maybe elsewhere too. I think you need to watch out for anything that might be pulling you away from God...no matter what it is. At this site we try to cover all the different trouble spots people might have, but ultimately it is between you and the Holy Spirit. Like Ashley said, there's often a little tinge where He's like whispering "Get out of here...It's not safe here." Listen to Him. If one can feel that it is unclean, then it is. I think the line is basically at anything that is pulling one away from God and if one ignores the Counselor when He tells that person to stop, he is being pulled away.

[Mimichan]

[quote="EireWolf"]

Better than my own words are the words of God through the apostle Paul. One of the main points in Romans 14 is this: "But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." I will post the whole chapter here]


You really didn't have to type out that whole chapter I appreciate it though...just as I appreciated everyone who answered. This reply is just to mention that I found another chapter in the Bible that compliments what you gave me. It's in I Corinthians Chapter 8. I'm not going to type it out though. Now, I DO believe that there are certain things that we as Christians should stay away from that the Bible is specific about. And we live by the Word of God, not by what we feel. The Bible says "we walk by faith, not by sight"...but in other cases it's an individual thing. I was just having a problem finding the balance for myself. I made this vow to God, etc....but how far does it go before I am bound by legalism and wading in the Pool of Ridiculous?
I am a reasonably intelligent woman. I am also perfectly sound mentally... but sometimes I take things to extremes and get out of balance in certain areas. So, part of the reason I posted that question was to get some godly insight and keep myself from going too far in either direction. Ultimately, I will do what I believe the Holy Spirit tells me to. But it's nice to know there's a place that I can pose such questions. Okay that's it....thanks again

[Mimichan]

I'd say the easiest way to know what is acceptable to God and what is not is to ask Him about it. In prayer, just ask Him to make you aware of His desires and feelings towards things like this. I'm sure He will honor your desire to please Him.... the Holy Spirit will nudge/urge you if you're willing to listen. I hope that helped.

That was very good advice. Thank you. I know exactly what you mean about being nudged by the Holy Spirit. That's something I'm quite familiar with. Thank God He loves us enough to do that,neh?

[EireWolf]

Hi Lesu_no_Senshi! I didn't actually type out the chapter... I'm not quite THAT patient! I looked it up at http://www.biblegateway.com and copied and pasted it. But anyway.... Yeah, it seems like Paul is saying pretty much the same thing to different people in the 1 Corinthians passage. Apparently it was a big problem in his day, but it definitely applies to today. Perhaps not with meat offered to idols... but it applies.

You are right when you say that we are to live by the Word of God and not by what we feel. But the Holy Spirit speaks to each of us about the things that fall into the "gray area" category. It IS difficult to find the balance sometimes, between legalism and the abuse of freedom. You're right to be careful, and you're right to ask other Christians about it. Ultimately, it is between you and God. If your conscience (or the Holy Spirit) tells you to stay away from something, then do, even if other Christians don't have a problem with it.

If this helped you in any way, then I'm glad!

[majanthehun]

to be one hundred percent honest, i draw a line that is a bit more conservative than most of what i've read here... partially because i don't see a lot of anime so i rarley have to draw lines and partially because, like others have said, i want to avoid things that will bring up any negative feelings about my past activities.

one thing that hasen't been brought up yet is parents (of course someone has to bring THEM in) but i normally avoid a lot of anime only because my MAA is not to into anime (she prefers that i avoid it). even though my MAA and i don't always agree, i know that it's my place to be obidient and do as she wishes, even if i don't like it. when i'm outta the house i can do as i please, but until then my mom makes the rules. this doesnt mean that i dont get a say in anything (my mom is very open to hearing my opinon/arguments/point of view) but i do obey when an agreement is reached (or a line is drawn).

for example, i felt no convictions at all from seeing Myazaki's "Spirited Away", but my mom watched two minutes of it and said "turn it off"- so off it went. We don't always see eye to eye, and that's okay-we're two completley different people. God sees us differently.

the bottom line is, avoid anything that you feel is wrong- anything where you feel the Holy Spirit tugging you away. there's always another option (in my case, i turned off "Spirited Away" but promptly put in "Castle in the Sky"-which my mom was okay with).

the lines i draw are simple- gore, ecchi, excessive language, any witchcraft or demon(ology), excessive eastern religion leanings, and any tugging from the Holy Spirit- all will cause me to turn it off. luckily for me, there's a lot of anime out there that doesn't have that stuff.

well anyways, i would say that that's my two cents but my words have been a lot longer than two measly cents!!

[Benu]

Yep, you all covered alot of things here that I really don't need to say anything, everything I wanted to say is all ready said. But I draw the line at what convicts me. That's Witchcraft Presented The Way It's Done In Real Life, Gratuitous Violence, and Pornographic nudity. But I was talking to the speaker Up at the camp I went to last week and we were talking about games. I he said I like to play games and some games I play are violent but I play them for the story or the challenge but I don't enjoy the violence. That's how i will draw my line too in Anime and games if it doesn't convict me. Like some Final Fantasies Convict me and others don't like FF8 has convicted me already and I'm gonna get rid of it soon. But FF7 doesn't. The same I try to do with anime.

[Link Antilles]

Which other Final Fantasies did? Just curious.

Oh, BTW, hey!

[inkhana]

Hey Benu, I'm curious too.... What things about FF8 (or any other FFs for that matter) convict you? (I haven't played it)

[MillyFan]

Yeah, I'm curious too about what in FF8 convicted you. I mean, there was that Doomtrain GF thing, but you can play the game without it. No big deal, and it's actually easier to play without getting it. If you want to know, I can tell you-I've played FF8 five times without Doomtrain. Finished each one.

I'm personally more convicted against FFVII, and have no convictions against any other game in the series.

[MasterDias]

FFVII was worse content wise than VIII.

But I guess it depends on your convictions...

[majanthehun]

*clears throat* lets not get all touchy because someone sees things differntly than you...

[Mimichan]

Hmm....well, I have never played any of the FF games. I wouldn't know if something was bad about them or not. I DID see the movie, though I'm not sure if that relates...ummm, sorry. I've been deprived I guess. I only had my PS2 for a short time before I gave it away, and I just recently got this computer so I don't actually own any games yet...except TombraiderIII: which I already had from a few years ago....that and a Japanese language Cdrom. But that isn't exactly a game ,is it? *fumbles around for a way to relate* Ummm, Warcraft had disco music--my friends and I used to enable it through the cheatcodes....*mumbles something about jellybeans and walks away*......




*dancing around to the Warcraft Disco music in her head: "Welcome to the World of Warcraft....Daboo DAbooo.oooooooooohhhhh!!!*

*sigh* nevermind.

[Rashiir]

Majan...when you say MAA, is that a reference to the same MAA in Days in the life of CAA?

[Benu]

Yea, well most of the GF's In FF8 for one thing. Really that's the only thing I can think of right now.

[MillyFan]

Most of the GFs? OK, Shiva and Siren were fanservicey, Doomtrain was acquired through something involving getting 6 of 3 items, and Shiva, Quezacotlatl, and I think a few other ones (sorry, it's been a year or so since I played FFVIII) share their names with Hindu or Aztec "gods."

Here's how I dealt with it.

As for the fanservice angle, I'm a girl and I consider myself straight. It was really no big deal to me, however I set the camera where it wasn't panning everywhere if I knew I'd have to use Shiva in a battle and there was no way to use something else (like in the battle against Ifrit or against the Fire Dragon or T-Rexaurs)

As for Siren, the field abilities it provides are useful, but it is a VERY weak battle GF (which is the only time you see it BTW even if she's junctioned to a character) so basically just don't use her in battle.

As for the name issue, I just renamed them. Shiva became "Snow" or "IceLady," Quezacotlatl became "ShockRock" or "Thunder," et al.

As for Doomtrain, you CAN easily win FFVIII without it. There's no need to get it, (even for fighting the invincible Red Giant in Ultimecia's Castle, where the official guide says it's the only way) as long as you have the other GFs, Squall built up to where he can deal major damage (4500-5000+ HP per hit) and 100 Meltdowns stocked to each character in your party.

With the above strategy, you have the weakest character in the party cast Meltdown and the other two attack with physical attacks. If Squall is strong enough and you have at least 10 Meltdowns, this battle is TOO easy. Doomtrain? Who needs it?

A more chancy strategy for the Red Giant is available if you have Selphie in your party-have one character cast Aura on Selphie while another character use GFs with the longest animations (like Brothers) and while you (the player) frantically go through Selphie's limit break options and use either "Meltdown" or "The End" when it comes up. "Meltdown" will weaken the RG where it can be attacked by the other characters, while "The End" will defeat it in one turn. This was actually the strategy I used the first time I played FFVIII, although it's not my recommended one unless you're too impatient to get the Meltdowns and level up (or junction 100 Ultimas or Tornados or Quakes to the strength value of) Squall.

[majanthehun]

yes, Rashiir, my refrence to my MAA is the same MAA from "Days"- we have a delacite agreement at this point as to my involvment in anime.

[MasterDias]

FFVII had summons too although they weren't as important as the GFs in FFVIII. Hades is more evil-looking than Doomtrain and is actually based on mythology whereas Doomtrain was most likely based on a FFVI boss.

Hades and Doomtrain did actually have pretty useful attacks and their status effects actually worked a lot of the time. It was interesting to see a train run over your enemies. Still, I can see how they could be offensive.

Millyfan, you forgot to mention Diabolos. He would likely be a more questionable GF than some of the others. He is an optional one you don't have to get if you don't want too although he is helpful during that tedious Tonberry sidequest.

[Ashley]

I may not have played the FF games, but I did face similiar struggles in my own life. The first came when I developed an eager interest in Greco-Roman mythology; while I was a bit repulsed by the sexual immorality of the "gods", I was fascinated by how people wanted to explain things pre-Christ. It did set up a bit of a guilt trip though, because I began to compete in mythology tests for Latin Contest, which meant studying quite a bit for something so arguably pagan. I reminded myself constantly of the nature of the myths, and why I was competing. Plus, mythology just seemed to be a cultural part of history, which I was already attracted to. I can't say it didn't bother me for a while though.

The other big thing for me was the Legend of Zelda, and some celtic stories (I was and still am an avid learner of medieval tales) because it mentioned the 3 goddesses. This was a lot easier to shrug off, but in both cases I just dismissed it as pure fantasy. I also made sure to remind myself of the wonders of God's world all around me, so I had no need to pursue the pagan foundations these aspects were built upon; in other words, I was satisfied with following Christ, and had no need to really delve into the other religions.

[MasterDias]

I've been somewhat interested in mythology myself. It is heavily prevalent in RPG's and basically anything fantasy(and often other genres as well). LOTR and Narnia had plenty of mythological creatures that can be commonly found in european myths.

[MillyFan]

FFVII had summons too although they weren't as important as the GFs in FFVIII. Hades is more evil-looking than Doomtrain and is actually based on mythology whereas Doomtrain was most likely based on a FFVI boss.

Hades and Doomtrain did actually have pretty useful attacks and their status effects actually worked a lot of the time. It was interesting to see a train run over your enemies. Still, I can see how they could be offensive.

Millyfan, you forgot to mention Diabolos. He would likely be a more questionable GF than some of the others. He is an optional one you don't have to get if you don't want too although he is helpful during that tedious Tonberry sidequest.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that one, but you reminded me. I rarely used Diablos in battle (although part of my early strategy was junctioning it to Irvine to raise his strength and HP values and give him a few field skills.)

About Tonberry King, I never needed Diablos to beat him. I just had Quistis use her "Laser" (not Laser Eye) limit break. It does the same thing that a level 100 Diablos would, and with it, this is an easy battle. There's always an alternative-you just have to look for it LOL!

[Technomancer]

I've never seen the study of mythology to be a problem. They're usually interesting stories in their own right and offer useful insight into the culture that created them. Indeed, it would be difficult to imagine any cultural/historical study that didn't take these into account. With regards to classical mythology, if some of the myths aren't required reading in school they probably ought to be. They form some of the earliest western literature, and were an important part of the cultures that gave rise to our own.

For myself, the idea of refraining from studying (or reading, or listening to, etc) something simply because it happens to have non-christian origins, or because it is something that I disagree with theologically, would be worse than any exposure to paganism.

[Benu]

Wow, thanks for the insight everyone. But yea I have my views when it comes too mythology and magic and stuff. The thing is I kinda shy away from things with magic and stuff. But I think this also has to do with my pastor's and parents views on this. Too them anything that deals with magic and that stuff is evil. Especially my pastor, if he were to see a game like FF he would flip. But the views he holds on movies is strange. He says going to the movies is wrong and renting movies is wrong, but he buys every single movie that come out on DVD and Video. I kid you not he buys every single movie that comes out. On the first day it comes out too on top of that. I totally think that's really twisted. It's even worse then renting or going to the movies because you are bringing that junk into your home. Really I've seen worse stuff in my home then at the movies. But I respect my pastor by not going to the movies. So I really think the way I feel about things comes from what I've been taught. I have so much too say about these things it's not funny. But I think I'm gonna get you all bord. If I go on talking about this.