Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann!

[aliveinHim]

I recently started watching Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. I've enjoyed it so far. It's a really good series. Even though I'm only on episode 6, it's definately grabbed my attention. My only objections are the bathhouse episode (because of the fanservice) and Yoko's clothing (which really aren't clothes). Kamina is definately one of the best anime characters of all time.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Believe in the Kamina that believes in you.

[Atria35]

TTGL is definitely a great anime. I like how even though Yoko is a lot of fanservice (and believe me, this gets turned right on it's head in one of the episodes! In one of the most hilarious ways!) she's not just standing there to be pretty- she actually DOES something! And is one of the most awesome, amazing female characters I've ever come across!

Oh, Kamina. You're only on episode 6, right? Yeah. He gets me right where my heartstrings are. What's amazing is that he's such a motivating force in personality, but openly admits that he's the least powerful among them. That doesn't matter, though, and he has the courage and stregnth to keep going.

[aliveinHim]

I love Yoko cuz she kicks butt and is more dominating than most of the guys. Kamina in many ways (except for being pervy) reminds me of my adoptive daddy. Kamina's such a stud. I saw this article and he represents God in the series. TTGL is actually a biblical illusion believe it or not.

[mechana2015]

Yyyeahh, I'd save the 'biblical allusion' theory until after you see the whole series. I don't really see it personally, or at least not the way you're describing it.

[Atria35]

I love Yoko cuz she kicks butt and is more dominating than most of the guys. Kamina in many ways (except for being pervy) reminds me of my adoptive daddy. Kamina's such a stud. I saw this article and he represents God in the series. TTGL is actually a biblical illusion believe it or not.

People can make anything try to fit in with the 'Biblical allusion' theory if they look hard enough and someone dies- it's not (as Mechana said, wait until you've seen the entire series). I mean, it's like watching Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind- just because it has some similarities doesn't mean that it's an allusion, especially when everything else about it says it's not.

I've seen that theory bandied about with so many anime, either 90% of animators and directors are secretly Christian or we're seeing things that aren't there. (please note- I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's great that we can pull Biblical themes from anime that aren't Chrisitan, but they weren't meant to be in the first place).

[Narnian]

TTGL is a good series overall (I especially like how the characters are more than they seem and the humor can be down right awesome at times), yet the blatant secular humanism and narcissism (my apologizes for the initial confusion) gets under my skin, especially at the end of the series. Please let us know what your thoughts are on the series once you finish.

I agree with Atria. That and since the foundation of the world is based on Christianity and the cross, images of it will show up everywhere whether atheists like it or not.

[Atria35]

I agree with Atria. That and since the foundation of the world is based on Christianity and the cross, images of it will show up everywhere whether atheists like it or not.

It's far more accurate to say that since Christians made a point to go out and convert people to their religion, all over the world, that the imagery is just that familiar to people.

Or even that because the religion is that prevalent, it's so easy to draw incorrect parallels between stories that have very shallow similarities and try to make them fit the Christian mold.

EDIT: Didn't read the beginning of your post properly. There is no nihilism whatsoever in the series. If you want to see nihilism, watch Narutaru. TTGL is the exact opposit.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

TTGL...nihilism

Could you back up this assertion, please?

[Narnian]

@Doctor - My apologies, I meant to say narcissism. I will look more into the nihilism aspect as well.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Not to go too far afield, but there are varieties of nihilism.

There's moral nihilism, which claims that moral values do not exist, and no action is mind-independently, morally wrong.

Epistemological nihilism is commonly referred to as skepticism or the belief that an item one would call knowledge does not exist in this world or in the mind.

Then there's the trendiest sort of nihilism, existential nihilism. This position is just the claim that life, as such, has no built-in or intrinsic meaning beyond what human beings superimpose onto it.

I suppose you could argue that TTGL is guilty of "promoting" existential nihilism, but, then again, so is a LOT of anime. A good chunk of it, actually. I'm not claiming that the Japanese are all nihilists, but perhaps many from that culture posses a framework that rejects the notion of the meaning.purpose/value of life coming from outside of the human community or of that individual life. Just speculation, though.

[Narnian]

@Doctor - You literally just stole the words out of my mouth. What I find annoying about TTGL is not that it contains nihilism or any of its convenient subsequents (most shows and movies do anymore), but that it parades them around so loudly as being the only key(s) and/or answer(s) to the universe. That is purely annoying.

@Atria - To finish the discussion, everything that happened in history lead up to the cross and everything that happened since is a result of it. God is the one who created the universe and displays his attributes through it, even His death on the cross.
Therefore the entire basis of the world and history is hinged on and around Christianity. There is no other way around it. That is why images of God, Jesus, and His sacrifice show up everywhere, even if they were not intended. You cannot do anything without saying something about God and his attributes. It is neither physically nor humanly possible since His character is so infused into the world around us. The same goes for stories. They all say something about God and his attributes since nothing that exists did not already originate from God, even though some stories relay his character more accurately than others.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

I would say that TTGL is no worse than, say, the first arc of first Fullmetal Alchemist anime. If you unpack Edward's, "You've got two legs. Use them, and walk" statement (especially when viewed as a response to the girl's question of what does she do with her life now that its been robbed of its god, its meaning) then I believe existential nihilism is what lies at its root.

I don't wanna go too off-tiopic. All I wanted to illustrate was that TTGL isn't doing anything particularly new or noteworthy for anime when it proclaims that we gotta make meaningful lives for ourselves.

[Narnian]

I'm aware of that. It just seems to come across stronger in TTGL than FMA (to use your example). The entire basis of the show's theme is based in nihilism. The quote, "Kick logic out and do the impossible!", for example. There are a few others of note, which I will not bring up here.
That's all. Best to let the thread get back to topic. ^_^

[Makachop^^128]

I love TTGL!!!! one of my favorite animes :3 I was kinda annoyed at yoko.....but oh well :/

[Atria35]

I'm aware of that. It just seems to come across stronger in TTGL than FMA (to use your example). The entire basis of the show's theme is based in nihilism. The quote, "Kick logic out and do the impossible!", for example.

Which isn't nihilist if you read Matthew 17:20, where Jesus says the exact same thing.

[Neane]

Which isn't nihilist if you read Matthew 17:20, where Jesus says the exact same thing.

Interesting.


On Topic: Have yet to see Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

[Narnian]

@Atria - The entire show is based on the premise that the mind (logic) must be removed in order to let emotions rule. That is epistemologically nihilistic (the belief where all knowledge is denied or non-existent).
In reference to Matthew, faith is upheld by logic not separate from it. By kicking logic out you destroy faith and man's capacity to worship God though his mind. They are not to separate entities.

Thus ends the discussion. (Not yelling just making it easier for skimmers and readers to see. Sorry about any confusion. ) Thank you. Please carry on as normal.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

Gurren Lagann is pretty fantastic stuff. I kind of feel the need to rewatch it because I saw it at a time when I would not be called of good taste, and plus I saw it pirated because I didn't know any better. Some really excellent animation.

To be honest, I didn't mind the fanservice at all because it wasn't annoying about it. It wasn't called attention to by the characters for the most part, and if its incidental I don't really mind.

[Atria35]

I know that the movies are out there and licensed- has anyone seen them? How do they compare to the series?

[mechana2015]

I've seen both movies, and they're really fun. Watch them after the series though since a majority of the changes are towards the middle and end of what would be the series. (The ends of each movie)

And Narnian, yelling at people and shutting down the conversation isn't very polite. If you feel it's dragging the conversation off topic, and want to do the responsable thing, ask for the conversation to be taken to PM.

[Narnian]

There are movies?! Ooo, I must add them to my watch list.

@Mech - I didn't intended for it to come across as yelling. I can see how that happened. For me yelling is caps not so much bold so it never occurred to me. I can see how bold could be seen as yelling, especially now. I merely wished to make it clear to future readers and skimmers of the thread that the discussion was over so as to keep the thread alive. My apologies for the confusion.

[rocklobster]

Fun Fact: Nia's dub VA is also the same cheerful woman who voices Starfire on Teen Titans and Princess Bubblegum on Adventure Time.

[KhakiBlueSocks]

I'm sorry to be the lone voice of decent in this thread, but I really, REALLY hate "Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann". I hate to say this, but I'm gonna anyway: If I want to watch "Eureka Seven", I'll watch "Eureka Seven". If I want to watch "Evangelion", I'll watch "Evangelion". "If I want to watch "FLCL", then guess what? I'm watching "FLCL". On their own, these shows are really good. But when you try to smash bits and pieces from each of these shows together and add obnoxious characters, then thanks, but no thanks, I would rather not. I'm sorry, but in my book, Kamina can go take a long walk off a short pier; if a real man acts like this, then I pity the human race. Simon is the worst parts of every teenage male lead Gainax has churned out since "Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water". Sorry to be cruel, but that's how I feel.

[Atria35]

Simon is the worst parts of every teenage male lead Gainax has churned out since "Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water". Sorry to be cruel, but that's how I feel.

From my understanding of it, Simon beats Shinji in that he actually mans up at some point, whereas Shinji just remains a mess.

[Davidizer13]

[color=RoyalBlue]I'm sorry, but in my book, Kamina can go take a long walk off a short pier]

I don't think Kamina was supposed to be a "real man," in some ways; for example, look how awkwardly he acts around Yoko, or how rash and immature he is in pretty much everything else. He's not supposed to be a be-all, end-all role model, even though that's how Simon sees him. Kamina has the courage one needs to be a leader, but not the maturity and cool-headedness; he's able to teach Simon how to physically act like a hero, but he's not able to teach him emotionally, and that's what Nia eventually does to Simon. It takes both of them to finally shape Simon into what we see in the last part of the series, when he's at his height.

(Why yes, I do like TTGL, how did you guess?)

[rocklobster]

[spoiler] I think the way Simon acts in TTGL after Kamina's death is justified. I think if I were in his shoes, I'd be pretty grief-stricken, considering the kind of man Kamina was. [/spoiler]

[TheSubtleDoctor]

@Rock - I think the use of spoiler tags would be appropriate in your post.

That aside, I agree that [spoiler]Simon's process of grief and acceptance and growth[/spoiler]is actually quite inspiring to behold.

And Kamina is, indeed, a real man. Those who think otherwise are simply jealous. Don't be jealous, guys.

[KhakiBlueSocks]

And Kamina is, indeed, a real man. Those who think otherwise are simply jealous. Don't be jealous, guys.

[font="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"]
Umm, not jealous at all. For one, I'm alive and he's dead. Not much to be jealous of there, that's for sure.

If you want to talk about "Real Men" with regards to anime, I can think of several characters that could fit the bill WAY better than Kamina, my personal favorite being Hachirota "Hachimaki" Hoshino from "Planetes". He's not this over-the-top idiot spouting fake inspiring lines. He's real and inspiring without trying to be. He's an everyday guy with real flaws, real feelings, who works hard to get the job done and accomplishes his goals. Anyone can relate to him. I'm sorry, but when it comes to "Real" men...Hachimaki beats Kamina's pants in my book anyday.

BOOGITY, BOOGITY, BOOGITY, AMEN.[/color][/SIZE][/font]

[Maokun]

Wait... TTGL... Nihilistic?

Hahaha, did you actually watch the series or just skimmed some first impression from the first episodes and then refused to let it go before finally dropping the series? Excuse me if I sound harsh, but I'm afraid you don't know what are you talking about, either on nihilism or on TTGL.

We have here people that decide to go against Entropy which is basically the one true base for any educated nihilism: the fact that the whole universe decays down to a slow and cold death where all individualism and action is blurred down to nothing. And these characters say "heck, no! Even if it's futile I'm going to fight this and I'm going to win even if I have to force my will to match the universe itself!"

There's nothing about surrendering of logic to emotions either. In fact, we get to see how Simon almost destroys himself because wallowing in his emotions. And then, later we get to see someone else almost destroying himself and his friends because negating his emotions. If anything, this contrast talks of the importance of reaching a balance and that in the end, more important than either reason and emotions is the will. Which is something that as Christians, I'm pretty sure we can all relate to. NGE is nihilistic; TTGL is not.