About God bashing in animes...

[Darth_Kirby]

I've watched several animes that I've like, but have bashed God. I understand that Japan is a secular nation, but so is the US. I've gotten to the point of being fed up with the God bashing in some animes/mangas. Usually if I'm watching a new anime/manga and it explicitly God-bashes in the first 10 episodes/chapters I don't bother watching/reading that anime/manga anymore. What about you guys?

[TopazRaven]

I must not watch enough different anime, never came across God bashing in any of the stuff I've watched. 0.o

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

I'm going to guess you watched and misinterpreted FMA because I can't think of anything else that could be construed as anti-God.

Unless you're saying that anything that takes place in a universe without the Christian God is bashing God.

[ShiroiHikari]

I've rarely come across shows that openly bash the Christian God. A lot of times when they say "god" they don't always mean the God we worship.

[Rusty Claymore]

At first I read this as God "bashing in" anime. XD

I'd suggest finding out what Japanese word is being translated as "God". The standard word for "god" in Japanese is kami, (which also means hair, amoung other things...) and is a generic term that does not nescessarily mean the Lord. So the actual manga/anime may not have anything to do with the Lord at all. But some are specifically talking about the Lord.

[Yamamaya]

Alexander Anderson was here.

AMENNNNNNNNNN

There are very few animes I know of that specifically "bash God." Most of the time Christianity is represented in anime, it's so lolwut that I couldn't possibly be offended by it.

[mysngoeshere56]

I'm going to guess you watched and misinterpreted FMA because I can't think of anything else that could be construed as anti-God.

Unless you're saying that anything that takes place in a universe without the Christian God is bashing God.

Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. There are very few titles I can think of that openly "bash God" (in my opinion).

I'd suggest finding out what Japanese word is being translated as "God". The standard word for "god" in Japanese is kami, (which also means hair, amoung other things...) and is a generic term that does not nescessarily mean the Lord. So the actual manga/anime may not have anything to do with the Lord at all. But some are specifically talking about the Lord.

That too.

[ShiroiHikari]

There's no distinction between "God" and "god" in Japanese. The word is "kami-sama", which can mean any god but can also mean the Christian God.

[Fish and Chips]

Here's a suggestion.

Next time you're offended by something, think about it.

It's the mark of a mature individual to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it. Rather than switch the channel or babble furiously to the Internet about haters, sit down and consider the source of your frustration. What is it really saying? You may come out with a better understanding of yourself, or at least a more adequate understanding of your opponent.

One of our biggest missteps as a species is our knee-jerk rejection of anything that doesn't fit comfortably into what we already believe. Challenge yourself; it may surprise you.

[Darth_Kirby]

[quote="Fish and Chips (post: 1481274)"]Here's a suggestion.

Next time you're offended by something, think about it.

It's the mark of a mature individual to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it. Rather than switch the channel or babble furiously to the Internet about haters, sit down and consider the source of your frustration. What is it really saying? You may come out with a better understanding of yourself, or at least a more adequate understanding of your opponent.

One of our biggest missteps as a species is our knee-jerk rejection of anything that doesn't fit comfortably into what we already believe. Challenge yourself]

One, I'm not knee jerking here. Just saying. I've read over 20 to 30 mangas that bash the idea of religion in general. After alwhile it gets downright annoying. I didn't have a problem with it at first because I understood that Japan is very secular. But after the 10th story with God bashing in it, it became very tiring. Basically it's the same reason that many get tired of christian literature because it preaches too much.

Just to clarify to all of you, none of them overtly bashed the christian God. They bashed the idea of religion in general as superstitious and non-rational. But essentially that's the same as bashing God persay. Just including all other gods as well. However, many did use very catholic like priests to be the strawman for religion.

[ChristianKitsune]

One, I'm not knee jerking here. Just saying. I've read over 20 to 30 mangas that bash the idea of religion in general. After alwhile it gets downright annoying. I didn't have a problem with it at first because I understood that Japan is very secular. But after the 10th story with God bashing in it, it became very tiring. Basically it's the same reason that many get tired of christian literature because it preaches too much.

Just to clarify to all of you, none of them overtly bashed the christian God. They bashed the idea of religion in general as superstitious and non-rational. But essentially that's the same as bashing God persay. Just including all other gods as well. However, many did use very catholic like priests to be the strawman for religion.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but... I'm afraid I do. Bashing the "idea" of "religion" isn't the same as Bashing God. And I think it's a little unfair to say that. I mean There are PEOPLE who bash religion and God all the time, and do you get sick and tired of them? I'm not sure that's good if we do because God still loves them too you know?

Maybe that was a bit of an extreme question, but you can't get mad at every single person who questions or says "religion is stupid." I guess it comes into a "Pick your own battles and things to get angry about" kind of situation.

But I think God is greater than those who question Him, and I don't think He wants us to waste our time complaining about it, especially when it's simply "Religion is stupid."

Allow me to play a cliche' card and say being a Christian isn't about a religion you follow. It's the relationship, and no one can question that about you. So who cares what other people say, you know what's real right? Don't let this stuff bother you, there's more things in the world that should concern us.

[MrKrillz0r]

I think bashing the idea of religion is stupid since it shows complete disrespect to so many people, but I haven't seen a whole lot of it in anime/manga really, real life is where I usually meet up with that kind of bashing.

Whatever, if you find a anime/manga offending its just to stop watching/reading it. ^^ Thats what I do at least. ;p

[TWWK]

I think it might be helpful if you brought up a specific example? What's one series that provides some of the most egregious bashing?

[ShiroiHikari]

I do think that "organized religion", as some people put it, is sometimes worthy of some scrutiny.

But yes, I would also like to hear of some examples.

[Maokun]

I think Fish is right on the money here. OP's zeal for defending God's portrayal is laudable but I think he's allowing himself to be fooled by appearances. As others have pointed, God =/= Religion nor Religion =/= Christianity. While it's true that religion is often portrayed under a negative light, in most cases this portrayal is accurate. More on this down below.

As others pointed too, Japanese culture has a totally different cosmological views. For them, Christianity it's an interesting, foreign mythology to draw symbolism and plot ideas from in the same way we westerners do with, for example, old Roman or Nordic mythology. And while looking at Christianity's history with unbiased, distanced eyes, they find that it was at the center of events in the darkest era of this side of the planet in the medieval times: A time when religion was used by corrupt people as a tool to manipulate and control people to gain riches and power. A time when people's honest faith and devotion was abused by those in power. This is something that has no parallel in eastern history; can you imagine how fabulously evil it looks in the eyes of a storyteller? How it presents an amazing framework to antagonize the ideals of freedom, individuality and valor that anime heroes are so well known for?

So, as Fish suggested, instead of recoiling in disgust at their godlessness, analyze: Are they actually condemning and attacking God? The actual tenets and beliefs of Christianity? Or rather the contemptible actions of people that misused them? In this sense, the negative portrayal is accurate. In fact, stories that directly deal with the topic of religion (as opposed to metaphors of it,) often show that the true believers of that religion are humble, kind and devout people that suffer valiantly the tyranny of those that are supposedly representatives of the clergy and who are shown in contrast as aggressively lacking the virtues that would make them truly believers.

[mysngoeshere56]

Allow me to play a cliche' card and say being a Christian isn't about a religion you follow. It's the relationship, and no one can question that about you. So who cares what other people say, you know what's real right?

Amen! I was just about to say the same thing. Took the words right out of my mouth. Very nicely put.

[Scarecrow]

I don't read manga but I've seen plenty of anime... And they generally treat religion and/or Christianity a lot more fairly than anything in the US for the most part. Even if it's not a 100% accurate representation or just used for the sake of being mystical and mysterious or whatever. But I think I've been offended by what they say/imply on American Tv more than anything I've ever seen in an anime... but I guess I haven't watched the right ones.

[minakichan]

Not to open a can of worms here, but I totally interpreted Letoist Reole as a direct criticism of organized Catholicism, and to say that it's not at all and that there is no science vs Western religion message in Hagaren seems a bit too apologetic to me. (Unless you go with Death of the Author and then IT DOESN'T MATTER! yaaay) I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call it "God-bashing" but honestly, while I think it kind of has those undertones, it doesn't particularly BOTHER me; I'm not going to set down every piece of media that has an alternate worldview from mine, unless it's waaaaay preachy.

Then again, I'm not really religious, so =/

[Yamamaya]

Then again, I'm not really religious, so =/

As long as you aren't Richard Dawkins, we're cool.

As others pointed too, Japanese culture has a totally different cosmological views. For them, Christianity it's an interesting, foreign mythology to draw symbolism and plot ideas from in the same way we westerners do with, for example, old Roman or Nordic mythology. And while looking at Christianity's history with unbiased, distanced eyes, they find that it was at the center of events in the darkest era of this side of the planet in the medieval times: A time when religion was used by corrupt people as a tool to manipulate and control people to gain riches and power. A time when people's honest faith and devotion was abused by those in power. This is something that has no parallel in eastern history]
It's important to note that when examining the Middle Ages, the negative elements of the times tend to get a lot more focus than other parts. In addition, some popular beliefs about the Middle Ages are myths, such as witch burnings. The Catholic Church didn't believe witches had any powers at all. That's why none were burned during the Inquisition. There had to be proof of the witch's powers to condemn him or her. There were no official witch burnings. However this didn't stop local overzelous priests and mobs from burning witches. Another typical event that tends to get demonized were the Crusades. Yes, horrible things happened during the Crusades, but they never would have happened if the extremely vicious nomadic Turks hadn't assaulted both the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt and the Byzantine Empire. Note: I'm not saying there weren't bad things that happened during the Middle Ages. I am also not saying that your statement was wrong. It's just one of my pet peeves when someone completely condemns the Middle Ages as being the WORST TIME PERIOD EVER.
It is certainly true that the east has no real parallel to the role the Catholic Church played in the Middle Ages or the actions that occurred during those times.

So, as Fish suggested, instead of recoiling in disgust at their godlessness, analyze: Are they actually condemning and attacking God? The actual tenets and beliefs of Christianity? Or rather the contemptible actions of people that misused them? In this sense, the negative portrayal is accurate. In fact, stories that directly deal with the topic of religion (as opposed to metaphors of it,) often show that the true believers of that religion are humble, kind and devout people that suffer valiantly the tyranny of those that are supposedly representatives of the clergy and who are shown in contrast as aggressively lacking the virtues that would make them truly believers.

This is definitely true. I would wager to say that your average Japanese person doesn't understand the true tenets of Christianity any more than your average American understands Taoism or the native Japanese religion.

[Fish and Chips]

I'm not knee jerking here.

Usually if I'm watching a new anime/manga and it explicitly God-bashes in the first 10 episodes/chapters I don't bother watching/reading that anime/manga anymore

Okay.

I've read over 20 to 30 mangas that bash the idea of religion in general.

I'd very much like to see the list for this.

This is definitely true. I would wager to say that your average Japanese person doesn't understand the true tenets of Christianity any more than your average American understands Taoism or the native Japanese religion.

Alternatively, your average Japanese person doesn't understand the true tenets of Christianity any more than your average American.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

It's important to note that when examining the Middle Ages, the negative elements of the times tend to get a lot more focus than other parts. In addition, some popular beliefs about the Middle Ages are myths, such as witch burnings. The Catholic Church didn't believe witches had any powers at all. That's why none were burned during the Inquisition. There had to be proof of the witch's powers to condemn him or her. There were no official witch burnings. However this didn't stop local overzelous priests and mobs from burning witches. Another typical event that tends to get demonized were the Crusades. Yes, horrible things happened during the Crusades, but they never would have happened if the extremely vicious nomadic Turks hadn't assaulted both the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt and the Byzantine Empire. Note: I'm not saying there weren't bad things that happened during the Middle Ages. I am also not saying that your statement was wrong. It's just one of my pet peeves when someone completely condemns the Middle Ages as being the WORST TIME PERIOD EVER.

Hurray! Never thought I'd read someone here put forth this view!

Mother effing this.

A rare, evenhanded look at the Middle Ages. Thanks for being sensible, sir.

[Sapphire225]

I'm with Fish and Chips with this one. As well as Kitsune. Religion doesn't always equal God, as there is a broad choice of religions. The Japanese in anime have even used Buddha in some of there series. Also, is it that they are blaspheming God or just coming down on religion all together? There is a difference between the two concepts. For example, look at Family Guy, a prime example of doing both, despite the producer being Jewish if I remember correctly.

Also, if it gets to you, you should avoid it altogether. It can be avoided with a simple flick on the remote or the close of the book.

Also, if I may ask, what anime/manga have you come across to have those concepts? I really want to know. Loki of Ragnarok is th only that I know that actually comes down on Christianity.

[Nate]

As long as you aren't Richard Dawkins, we're cool.

Even if she's Richard Dawkins, we're still cool.

Yes, horrible things happened during the Crusades, but they never would have happened if the extremely vicious nomadic Turks hadn't assaulted both the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt and the Byzantine Empire.

Sorry, don't buy it. It's still valid to criticize the church of that day and age. What you said may be true, but it's still pretty much "It's not MY fault, HE started it!" Didn't work in grade school, and shouldn't work in history either.

[Yamamaya]

Sorry, don't buy it. It's still valid to criticize the church of that day and age.

I never stated the institution of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages was beyond reproach. Heck, I'm a Protestant so obviously by default I wouldn't be in favour with them. Don't put words in my mouth bro.

What you said may be true, but it's still pretty much "It's not MY fault, HE started it!" Didn't work in grade school, and shouldn't work in history either.

It's not as simple as that. The Papacy of that time wanted to mend the schism between the Eastern and Western churches from a few decades back. In addition, they were scared to death of what would happen if the Turks managed to conquer the Byzantine Empire and enter Europe(which did happen when the Byzantine Empire fell in 1453, ironically in part because the Fourth Crusaders were bumbling morons who sacked Constantinople in 1204 and creating their own little kingdom in Greece. This was a blow the Byzantines would never recover from and allowed the Ottomons to easily sweep they away). The Byzantine Emperor sent his cry for help to the Pope. The Pope saw a lot of political opportunity here, but knew that he couldn't gather a massive army with just the cause of helping out the Byzantines. Thus he came up with the idea of "taking back Jerusalem" from the Muslims. There were a couple of reasons for this. Although the Muslims had controlled it since the 600s, they had allowed pilgrims to come there for quite some time, until the Turks moved in and started killing the pilgrims or enslaving them. The second reason was that areas like France and Germany were overrun with constant warfare between the various lords and their knights. In fact, it got so bad, that the Catholic Church passed a Peace of God act which was an attempt for war laws. It consisted of not killing civilians and not killing on Sunday(which is hilarious and sad at the same time). The Papacy figured they could stop these petty conflicts if they united the knights for one cause. And the third was that people of the Middle Ages were fascinated with Jerusalem. It was to them the Holiest of holy places in an era dominated by fascination with "Christian relics." It was even placed at the center of the world in many European maps. Thus it would be easy to rile up the populace to go take back "the Holy City."

The motives behind the Crusades were diverse, but there certainly was an element of justifiable fear behind the actions. After all, in 732, the Franks under Charles Martel had just barely managed to prevent the Moors from taking France. A few decades prior to the first Crusade, the Normans had just driven Muslim pirates out of Sicily and Southern Italy. They were frightened that the more powerful Muslim nations would swallow them up. Not to mention the fact that the Turks scared the crap out of everyone.

In addition, the Crusades did have some positive impact. Many ideas from the Muslim cultures got passed on to Europe which helped spark the Renaiisance. In addition, if the Crusades hadn't occurred when they did, the Turks might have taken out the Byzantines much earlier and the whole course of history may have shifted.


Sorry for the tl]Basic point is, the Crusades were not as simple as EUROPEANS BAD. MUSLIMS GOOD.[/B]

EDIT:And before you say it, I am aware of all the horrible things both the Crusaders and the Muslims did and I do not endorse any of those actions. War is Hell. That's the way it's always been.

[Jingo Jaden]

Sorry, don't buy it. It's still valid to criticize the church of that day and age. What you said may be true, but it's still pretty much "It's not MY fault, HE started it!" Didn't work in grade school, and shouldn't work in history either.

Peace for our time!

[Darth_Kirby]

wow... alot has happened on this thread since I've been gone. One, I'd like to start by saying that I understand that Christainity is a relationship with God and I champion that whenever I can, but to throw the baby out with the bathwater (the baby being religion) is wrong also. If you think that fasting and other rituals will get you to heaven then you're wrong, but if you use them as they were meant be used, to discipline yourself spiritually, then they can draw you closer to God relationally in ways that can't be achieved merely by saying, "we're buds!" and leaving it at that.

As for what Nate said, true, the church should always be open to criticism, but I also think that we, being surrounded by a secular culture, have been conditioned a little to be overly critical of the church at times, thus lacking grace for when the church does mess up.

edit: I think what I'm saying is that I get frustrated with how the secular crowd express their views and are considered "enlightened/tolerant" and when christians express their views they are considered "backwards/intolerant."

[mechana2015]

Let's please try to stick to talking about anime. The history is interesting, but I think it's run its course in its usefulness within the thread. Also, please keep blatant theological discussion out of the thread as well. That is for a separate forum.

Kirby, you really ought to answer the questions people are asking. It's kind of unfair to ask for responses when you don't provide specific examples.

[Darth_Kirby]

Let's please try to stick to talking about anime. The history is interesting, but I think it's run its course in its usefulness within the thread. Also, please keep blatant theological discussion out of the thread as well. That is for a separate forum.

Kirby, you really ought to answer the questions people are asking. It's kind of unfair to ask for responses when you don't provide specific examples.

Sorry, I will try to be more specific in the future. However, I was trying to hit on a very general trend. I didn't want to get into a "is this specific manga/anime evil!" debate.

[mechana2015]

Well heres the reason people are asking probably...

My personal experience has been that I've seen a lot of anime, but haven't seen anime against Christianity or the Christian god more than once or twice, so I, like many of the other posters are curious as to what shows you're seeing this in so we can understand what criteria you're using. We're not mind readers here, so we can't just know what you personally perceive as bashing.

[Darth_Kirby]

Well heres the reason people are asking probably...

My personal experience has been that I've seen a lot of anime, but haven't seen anime against Christianity or the Christian god more than once or twice, so I, like many of the other posters are curious as to what shows you're seeing this in so we can understand what criteria you're using. We're not mind readers here, so we can't just know what you personally perceive as bashing.

+C Sword and Cornett, Magical x Miracle, and FMA are the prime examples that I remember off the top of my head. The others, as I said before, I didn’]+C Sword and Cornett [/I]and Magical x Miracle. But in FMA it seemed the first thing they did was preach secularism, so I didn't watch or read beyond the first episode.