Treatment of Women in Anime

[ChristianKitsune]

One thing I've noticed, particularly in some shojo and josei manga and even in their anime forms, is that the girls are depicted as being incredibly stupid and naive.

I was reading some of my old manga from when I was a little younger and I'm like "Why is this girl so dumb? Why is she falling for the obvious jerk? Why is she LETTING this guy treat her so awfully and still call it "love?" Why is she letting herself get caught up in this sticky situations that if any woman with a brain could figure a way out of really quickly.

THAT's the depiction of women/girls that I hate even more than the scantily clad, large breasted fan service objects. Because sometimes at least those characters have a functioning brain.

[MightiMidget]

One thing I've noticed, particularly in some shojo and josei manga and even in their anime forms, is that the girls are depicted as being incredibly stupid and naive.

I was reading some of my old manga from when I was a little younger and I'm like "Why is this girl so dumb? Why is she falling for the obvious jerk? Why is she LETTING this guy treat her so awfully and still call it "love?" Why is she letting herself get caught up in this sticky situations that if any woman with a brain could figure a way out of really quickly.

THAT's the depiction of women/girls that I hate even more than the scantily clad, large breasted fan service objects. Because sometimes at least those characters have a functioning brain.

This. I was having difficulty with my wording and gave up, and this hits the nail directly on the head.

[ShiroiHikari]

That's why I don't read a lot of shoujo manga...

[TheSubtleDoctor]

*breaks up the flow by commenting on the OP w/o reading the most recent replies*

All I'll say is that when you have things like Nausicaa and Rose of Versailles on one hand and things like Infinite Stratos and Dual on the other (saying nothing of stuff like Ninja Scroll), it's...pretty tough to make generalizations. Then there are multiple angles to consider things from: objectification vs stereotyping vs misogyny vs, etc. Women don't have to be depicted wearing little clothing to be slighted, while depicting all women as "unsexual" beings isn't healthy either. Maybe we can make general statements on this subject about certain genres or even directors, but we're probably safer just taking things on a case by case basis.

[Midori]

One thing I've noticed, particularly in some shojo and josei manga and even in their anime forms, is that the girls are depicted as being incredibly stupid and naive.

I was reading some of my old manga from when I was a little younger and I'm like "Why is this girl so dumb? Why is she falling for the obvious jerk? Why is she LETTING this guy treat her so awfully and still call it "love?" Why is she letting herself get caught up in this sticky situations that if any woman with a brain could figure a way out of really quickly.

THAT's the depiction of women/girls that I hate even more than the scantily clad, large breasted fan service objects. Because sometimes at least those characters have a functioning brain.

I've seen this too, but to be fair, I have also read/watched some shonen/seinen titles where the male main characters were incredibly stupid. Harem shows and horror shows tend to have this the worst, though there are mecha and action titles too.

[mechana2015]

I've seen this too, but to be fair, I have also read/watched some shonen/seinen titles where the male main characters were incredibly stupid. Harem shows and horror shows tend to have this the worst, though there are mecha and action titles too.

This tends to be attributed to the charachter being... dumb or 'hot blooded', rather than their gender though. In a lot of the josei/shojo, their decision making abilities are directly tied to their gender, whether it's explicitly stated or not, but there's a strong case to be made for it being blown off as 'haha girls can't think straight if the guy is hot', and making it seem like staying in abusive relationships for love is OK. Guys don't really get the same treatment, though one could point to how abuse in harem anime is used for comedy, but that would be a different thread entirely.

[Yamamaya]

This tends to be attributed to the charachter being... dumb or 'hot blooded', rather than their gender though. In a lot of the josei/shojo, their decision making abilities are directly tied to their gender, whether it's explicitly stated or not, but there's a strong case to be made for it being blown off as 'haha girls can't think straight if the guy is hot', and making it seem like staying in abusive relationships for love is OK. Guys don't really get the same treatment, though one could point to how abuse in harem anime is used for comedy, but that would be a different thread entirely.

While this is true, oftentimes being hot blooded is considered to be the ideal trait of manliness in many anime series.

[mechana2015]

While this is true, oftentimes being hot blooded is considered to be the ideal trait of manliness in many anime series.

Exactly. Hot blooded stupidity is seen as a good thing usually, and they end up getting rewarded for it. Shoujo stupidity often results in prolonged abuse 'in the name of love'. Maybe its that the over the top superpowered results that tend to be associated with 'hot blooded stupidity' are so unrealistic that they can be looked past, while shojo is so close to normal life that it becomes problematic.

[ABlipinTime]

sigh. Apparently I need to either monitor the threads I start like a hawk and handle responses as soon as they arise or be very wordy and figure out how all of you tend to interpret my statements. Since I don't have time to do the former - mental note: say what I mean in every possible way. Well, I suppose I got enough info to answer my question.

My involvement in this conversation is finished.

[minakichan]

One thing I've noticed, particularly in some shojo and josei manga and even in their anime forms, is that the girls are depicted as being incredibly stupid and naive.

I would posit that you're not reading the RIGHT shoujo manga, but yes, it is weird to see that when shoujo is written by women for women. (or rather, by women for girls)

[Maokun]

I agree with what most people have already commented on the thread, so I'm going to go ahead and comment on OP's post risking to be a bit controversial (though I swear I mean no offense to anyone.)

Doubts such as the one presented about Spice and Wolf and the use of the word "dehumanization", are in my experience, cases of feminism taken to the extreme. I.e. eagerly scanning media for the slightest hint of real or imagined victimization, often to be used to push agendas that benefit a few individuals rather than actually helping to the very real and necessary stand against sexism. In fact, if any, such displays only hurt the cause by portraying the sympathizers (and even actual, real victims) as overreacting and petty, making people dismiss the whole thing as hysterical attention grabbing.

Now, I'm not accusing OP of being a source of this way of thinking. Rather, I feel she's been taught to think like that and she's only trying to do the right thing by choosing sensible forms of entertainment (and God knows that there's indeed noxiously sexist entertainment out there.) My advice is not to rely on jerk impressions such as "this girl is nude in a number of scenes", "this girl has big boobs and/or dresses in a rather provocative manner", "this girl appears to be in a submissive/nonhuman role," etc. to form judgments, but rather examine things in their context. I've seen series where female characters are clothed head to toe and behave properly, but the shallowness of their character and the way other characters act around her speaks much worse of the ideas the writer have about women than those series filled with scantily clad woman, whom happen to be strong and with a fully fleshed out personality.

[LadyRushia]

I agree with what most people have already commented on the thread, so I'm going to go ahead and comment on OP's post risking to be a bit controversial (though I swear I mean no offense to anyone.)

Doubts such as the one presented about Spice and Wolf and the use of the word "dehumanization", are in my experience, cases of feminism taken to the extreme. I.e. eagerly scanning media for the slightest hint of real or imagined victimization, often to be used to push agendas that benefit a few individuals rather than actually helping to the very real and necessary stand against sexism. In fact, if any, such displays only hurt the cause by portraying the sympathizers (and even actual, real victims) as overreacting and petty, making people dismiss the whole thing as hysterical attention grabbing.

Now, I'm not accusing OP of being a source of this way of thinking. Rather, I feel she's been taught to think like that and she's only trying to do the right thing by choosing sensible forms of entertainment (and God knows that there's indeed noxiously sexist entertainment out there.) My advice is not to rely on jerk impressions such as "this girl is nude in a number of scenes", "this girl has big boobs and/or dresses in a rather provocative manner", "this girl appears to be in a submissive/nonhuman role," etc. to form judgments, but rather examine things in their context. I've seen series where female characters are clothed head to toe and behave properly, but the shallowness of their character and the way other characters act around her speaks much worse of the ideas the writer have about women than those series filled with scantily clad woman, whom happen to be strong and with a fully fleshed out personality.

I agree with this as well, although OP is actually male, lol. Even so, your point about the issue being taken to the extreme is valid and I think it's important for people to not assume an overreaction when sexism issues are brought forth. Otherwise, as you said, the real problems will be ignored. I feel that because there's a certain feminist stereotype of someone who makes an issue out of every little thing, some people are inclined to assume that every single case is like that.

[TWWK]

I thought this was a pertinent post related to the topic:

"I'm Only Interested in 2D Girls!" On Lust, Animated Desire, and Gender Expectations

It's a few years old, but it's certainly an interesting analysis of how "anime treats women." Also interesting is that it was written by a gentleman who now hold an M.Div.

[Rewin]

One thing I've noticed, particularly in some shojo and josei manga and even in their anime forms, is that the girls are depicted as being incredibly stupid and naive.

I was reading some of my old manga from when I was a little younger and I'm like "Why is this girl so dumb? Why is she falling for the obvious jerk? Why is she LETTING this guy treat her so awfully and still call it "love?" Why is she letting herself get caught up in this sticky situations that if any woman with a brain could figure a way out of really quickly.

THAT's the depiction of women/girls that I hate even more than the scantily clad, large breasted fan service objects. Because sometimes at least those characters have a functioning brain.

I have to disagree with this on the basis that girls like this DO exist. I have known a number of girls who have been with real creeps but stuck with them because they "loved them". Portraying all women as otherwise doesn't make sense either because it is denying a reality. Granted those series should have the happy ending of the girl getting a good guy, but I can't comment on the ones you are referring to since I doubt I have read/seen them.
That's another reason I don't like when people say "they're stereotyping that girls are dumb because of this or that." (or any type of stereotyping, regardless of gender/age/race/etc.) Perhaps she is just a dumb person. Unless all of the female characters in a show are portrayed this way (and even then it could be a group of dummies.... I wonder if there's a term for that) I don't see any reason to be offended.

[Yamamaya]

I thought this was a pertinent post related to the topic:

"I'm Only Interested in 2D Girls!" On Lust, Animated Desire, and Gender Expectations

It's a few years old, but it's certainly an interesting analysis of how "anime treats women." Also interesting is that it was written by a gentleman who now hold an M.Div.

That was actually a very interesting article. I felt like the author really handled the topic well. I do have a few small complaints, mainly his statement that yuri alwaysi=pRon. This simply isn't true, but that's a different topic.

I especially liked his observation that we tend to be repulsed by the darkest elements of lust, like how everyone hates Makoto from School Days.