Women pursuing men

[Maledicte]

I can't speak for all girls, of course, but my kind of man is the kind I know can stand on his own two feet. If the man is supposed to be a pillar of spiritual strength and discipline in a marriage, shouldn't he to have the maturity to ask someone he likes out?

Maybe it's not a question of nerves. Maybe he just isn't aware of the fact that the girl is interested in him.

Of course, girls shouldn't be teases, but I don't think it's healthy for either parties for the girl to be easy to get.

What Thunder said.

[broly146]

I don't pursue anymore because I locked away my emotions a long time ago...and I know I need to bring them out again, but if i do what will happen? I've experienced heartbreak a lot and I don't want to go through it anymore.

[piffle]

By "chasing", do you mean making the initial move for a relationship, planning the dates, and proposing?
I think these are reserved for the man, his privilege and his burden.
A girl can do her own "chasing", by being the kind of girl being worth chasing. This requires a slightly different skill set: Patience and restraint. A guy needs this too, certainly, but it's especially needed in a girl.
I like the way The Rebelution sums up the two roles:

for girls:
http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/02/three-teens-define-a-real-woman/

for guys:
http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/01/teen-girls-define-a-real-man/

[Cognitive Gear]

But girls- if the guy you want doesn't feel like you're worth the trouble of gathering the nerve to ask you out, do you really want him?

But guys, if a girl requires that jump through a series of specified hoops to earn her affections, do you really want her?

I can't speak for all girls, of course, but my kind of man is the kind I know can stand on his own two feet. If the man is supposed to be a pillar of spiritual strength and discipline in a marriage, shouldn't he to have the maturity to ask someone he likes out? Of course, girls shouldn't be teases, but I don't think it's healthy for either parties for the girl to be easy to get.

Every girl is easy to get if she is interested, just like every guy is easy to get if they are interested. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way, but there's no way to "earn" someone's affections. No amount of work will make it happen, either the feelings will be there or they won't. That's not to say that feelings can't grow over time, but it's that it won't be the grand romantic gestures that win them over. It will ultimately be all of the things that make you who you are.

So that being said, if a girl has that attitude that I need to "work" to "earn" her affections, then she isn't someone I am interested in.

Anyways, I really do think that the best, and healthiest option is for the pursuing to be mutual. A functioning relationship is always a team effort, and placing all of the responsibility on one person seems selfish to me.

[Syreth]

I know when I was dating, the few times I was actually pursued, it made me go, "ehhhh." Don't exactly know why. Probably just a gut reaction.

[broly146]

When I get pursued I don't just say yes, I get to know them first before I even consider the possibility of dating.

[piffle]

By "chasing", do you mean being the initiator of a relationship, proposing, that sort of thing?
I believe these roles are reserved for men, their privilege and their burden.
Girls can be chasers, in a way, as in they strive to be the kind of girl worth chasing. I believe this requires a slightly different skill set; patience and restraint. The point of chasing someone is to get them to like you back, right? Which the guy needs, certainly, but the girl more so.
I like the way The Rebelution blog sums the two roles:

for girls:
http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/02/three-teens-define-a-real-woman/

for guys:
http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/01/teen-girls-define-a-real-man/

Why wouldn't a guy need to earn a girl's love and respect?
Girls shouldn't put guys through trials to "prove" their love, but the guy still needs to show he's willing to go the extra mile.

Maybe I am the only one who feels this way, but there's no way to "earn" someone's affections. No amount of work will make it happen, either the feelings will be there or they won't. That's not to say that feelings can't grow over time, but it's that it won't be the grand romantic gestures that win them over. It will ultimately be all of the things that make you who you are.

No, you can't make someone like you, I agree. But after the feelings of love fade away, what is left? The peak of loving feelings can't be maintained 24/7. But in a real relationship, after the feelings take a break, the love is still there. Why? Because love isn't just a feeling, it's a commitment, and a true commitment can't be based on feelings alone.
The character of the person you're with is just as important as how much you like them. Even more important when you love them.

Anyways, I really do think that the best, and healthiest option is for the pursuing to be mutual. A functioning relationship is always a team effort, and placing all of the responsibility on one person seems selfish to me.

I agree; it's a team effort. But a think of a team, any team. Not everyone can be the linebacker, not everyone can be the the pitcher, not everyone can do a slam dunk. Each player is given a role according to the skills he's given. As it is with men and women; He gave men and women different roles; and I believe the role of the initiator belongs to the man.

These are all my own opinion, which I believe are biblically based.
I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to my view, I'm just saying what I think. I truly don't want to start an argument, but if this turns out to be a good discussion, I'm game. Just putting that out there.

Respectfully yours,
piffle

[broly146]

I honestly can't know what goes on with what girls feel, but us guys (not all) have a hard time realizing when we actually have feelings for someone. I have a really hard time connecting with girls because I'm afraid my emotions will get out of control.

[Maledicte]

Girls can be chasers, in a way, as in they strive to be the kind of girl worth chasing. I believe this requires a slightly different skill set]
This doesn't make sense to me. I think men need to practice patience and restraint just as much as women have to.

Likewise, if a woman should be worth chasing, shouldn't a man be, as well? It's not a sin for a man to have attractive qualities.

Why wouldn't a guy need to earn a girl's love and respect?
Girls shouldn't put guys through trials to "prove" their love, but the guy still needs to show he's willing to go the extra mile.

I want to show I'm willing to go the extra mile for my guy, too! I'm not some princess to be doted on, I want to support and love him just as much as (I hope) he wants to support and love me!

I agree; it's a team effort. But a think of a team, any team. Not everyone can be the linebacker, not everyone can be the the pitcher, not everyone can do a slam dunk. Each player is given a role according to the skills he's given. As it is with men and women; He gave men and women different roles; and I believe the role of the initiator belongs to the man.

But what if they have the reverse of those skill sets and personalities? If a girl who has initiative gets together with a guy who is more submissive, both are happy with the arrangement, and they have a happy, productive marriage, does that mean that there is something wrong with their relationship?

[Cognitive Gear]

The rebelution site's ideal women are illustrated as being from a romanticized Victorian age. Something tells me that the teenage authors might be appalled to learn the truth about relationships from that era.

No, you can't make someone like you, I agree. But after the feelings of love fade away, what is left? The peak of loving feelings can't be maintained 24/7. But in a real relationship, after the feelings take a break, the love is still there. Why? Because love isn't just a feeling, it's a commitment, and a true commitment can't be based on feelings alone.
The character of the person you're with is just as important as how much you like them. Even more important when you love them.

Exactly, and it won't be the flowers he brought you that earned that staying power, it will be the friendship that you built while falling for them for who they are. The flowers made you feel nice for a few minutes, but those feelings fade as quickly as the flowers wilt. It's the same with all romantic gestures: important for showing how you feel, not important for building the actual relationship. (though they certainly can help to break the ice)

I agree; it's a team effort. But a think of a team, any team. Not everyone can be the linebacker, not everyone can be the the pitcher, not everyone can do a slam dunk. Each player is given a role according to the skills he's given. As it is with men and women; He gave men and women different roles; and I believe the role of the initiator belongs to the man.

Not every guy has the same skills, and thus not every guy will fill the same role. Not every woman has the same skills, and thus not every woman will fill the same role.

Basically, I don't think that it's good to have very strictly defined roles for people of each gender. I don't want to get too theological (it's clear that we are coming from very different positions), but when we talk about Biblical relationships, it is very important to remember that these verses were written to a certain people, within a certain culture, at a certain time. For the most part, it is written to a group of people for whom marriage is a way to gain property, or to show that your family is closely aligned with another. There was no choice in marriage, so there was no "pursuing". (Except in a few very rare cases. Jacob comes to mind, in which case he even had multiple wives and exchanged 7 years of labor for each wife. He basically bought them. Not exactly an ideal situation to base our modern marriages on, imo.)


EDIT: I just want to make sure that I note that I don't think that fitting into the traditional gender roles, or desiring to have a relationship that is like that is a bad thing. It's perfectly fine, I just happen to run into people who pressure others into it all too often. My own parents' very successful relationship certainly falls into the traditional gender roles type of relationship.

[broly146]

That's some good points there.

[shooraijin]

I don't want to get too theological

I don't want you getting too theological either.

[Nate]

By "chasing", do you mean being the initiator of a relationship, proposing, that sort of thing?
I believe these roles are reserved for men, their privilege and their burden.

Sweet, you're saying I don't deserve to ever have a girlfriend. Thanks for the confidence booster! Really makes me feel a whole lot better.

Wait, I meant "worse." I always get those two things mixed up.

The point of chasing someone is to get them to like you back, right? Which the guy needs, certainly, but the girl more so.

The girl needs it more because...? I'm curious to the logic behind this. Since you pretty much seem to have pulled this out of thin air.

http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/01/teen-girls-define-a-real-man/

See, I already have problems with this...

"…is a gentleman. He is polite and shows women honor in everyday things such as opening doors, etc."

A gentleman, as I've said before, would do these things for anyone. Guy or girl. Regardless of gender. If a guy would hold a door open for a woman but let it slam shut on the face of some other guy, he's not a gentleman. I see absolutely no reason to limit these things to refer solely to women.

"…has no desire to be gross in order to impress other men. He doesn’t burp, swear, or tell disgusting stories."

A man doesn't burp? Well, I guess I'm foiled by my stomach, because I'm extremely gassy and there really isn't any way to stop it. Probably more info than anyone here wanted to know, but there's medical reasons behind why we burp and stuff, and some of us just can't help it, okay? Good to know you have to be in perfect health to deserve a significant other though, guess I'm even MORE screwed!

"…shows by his actions that he loves children."

Wow. I hate children. I can't stand them. I think they're annoying and never want any. I'm really failing this whole man thing. Maybe I should get a sex change. Apparently women are allowed to hate children, but us men aren't.

"…is mature in his emotions and his expressions of them. He can deal with the trials of life logically, with wisdom, not on a basis of emotional instability."

That's just so ridiculous I can't even think of a response except to say wow, they think logic and emotion are mutually exclusive and on top of that, reinforce misogynistic gender notions that those darn women, you just can't trust their emotions because they're crazy! Not like us smart men, no sir!

"…expresses himself with intelligent words rather than using 'street talk.'"

How very white of them. Remember kids, anyone who speaks differently than you isn't intelligent.

Why wouldn't a guy need to earn a girl's love and respect?

Because love isn't something that can be "earned," that's why he wouldn't need to. Respect is different, in a sense, since you do have to earn certain kinds of respect, but love is never something that needs to be earned. I can imagine a mother and father saying "Well we don't know if we love our son or not, he hasn't done anything yet to earn it." That's horrible.

Girls shouldn't put guys through trials to "prove" their love, but the guy still needs to show he's willing to go the extra mile.

So guys shouldn't have to do anything to prove their love, but they have to do things to prove their love. Um, what?

I also know that there are girls who are uncomfortable and dislike when guys do something for them, even guys they like.

But girls- if the guy you want doesn't feel like you're worth the trouble of gathering the nerve to ask you out, do you really want him?

One, you act as if the ONLY reason guys don't ask girls out is because they're scared. This isn't true, as often times guys won't ask out girls for other reasons...such as, perhaps they don't notice the girl because she's acting like a doormat and not making her presence known. She's sitting there waiting for the guy to take notice of her, but feels she can't say or do anything because "Men are supposed to be the pursuers." And so he just doesn't notice her, because she won't make a move.

Or, perhaps it's because he feels like he would be bothering her. Annoying her. Ryan made a thread about this a while ago, about eHarmony dating profiles and stuff, and it turned out the more attractive women were asked out less. The reason? Because most guys go "Wow look at her, she's probably got a thousand guys asking her out, in fact she probably already met someone, no point in trying." If the girl is attractive enough, the guy will assume she already has someone, or that they're not good enough for her and will only be an annoyance.

Also, rejection can be a pretty harsh thing...it doesn't last long sometimes, but it's still painful, and a lot of people don't want to have to deal with unnecessary pain, especially if the above situations are in play. If there's a gorgeous girl, I'm not going to make a move on her. She probably already has a guy, wouldn't be interested in me, and I'd rather just let the attraction naturally wear itself out over time than have my feelings crushed insignificantly and with a handful of words. Unless, of course, she, y'know, shows interest in me, then it's a different story.

Finally, different girls value different things. You say "Do you really want him?" as if all girls value assertiveness and that kind of attitude in a man. Some don't. Some don't want a guy like that at all. You're trying to invent a universal standard for attraction which just doesn't work. You'll never get 100% of people to agree on what is and isn't attractive, so phrasing such things as if all girls should feel the same just doesn't work.

Sorry if I sound like I'm being too harsh, but...I take some of this as personal insult, I'm not going to lie. I'm not an assertive guy, I'm very quiet, shy, and reserved in real life. And your statements do come off as "Well then you DESERVE to be alone your entire life," which while I've pretty much accepted that this is probably my destiny, is still very painful to hear someone say. Obviously, you don't know me personally, and you obviously aren't trying to say anything to me as an individual, but all the things you are saying apply to me and feel as if they are directed at me. That no girl should want me because I don't "feel like" asking a girl out, or that I'm "immature" for being introverted and socially awkward. It hurts.

Anyway this post is too long already...

[broly146]

@Nate I don't want to list them, I just wanted to let you know that I agree on somethings you listed.

[Nate]

Thanks. I probably could have said some stuff in a less snarky way, and again, to piffle, I'm sorry if I come across as a jerk...but this is sorta something I feel really strongly about, so my emotions get the better of me when something like this comes up.

Loneliness is a bitter pill...or something like that. I...I think someone probably said that at some point. Probably.

[Sheenar]

Yes, I agree that one cannot make blanket statements about genders and what they should act like/be like. People are individuals --with their own personality, interests, opinions, backgrounds, etc. To say that they must fit into a set mold is insulting to their individuality. Diversity is beautiful. I am not exactly a girly-girl --I'm a bit of a tomboy, actually, though reserved.

I also agree that a guy should not have to earn someone's love. Though, due to my background and growing up in an abusive home, he does have to earn my trust. One of my biggest fears is ending up in an abusive relationship --I tend to be very passive (defense mechanism), so it would be easy for a guy to take advantage of that.

I am afraid to express interest in another guy. It took me 3 years to tell my guy friend how I felt about him --and I was turned down. Even though we are still friends, I am reluctant to do it again. Now I know how guys feel when girls turn them down.

I've pretty much given up home for a relationship at this time. I'm not sure who would want to be with a sick girl and stay with me among all the specialist visits, tests, days confined to bed, not being able to keep up with housework (so my room looks awful), etc. It'd take one heck of a saint of a guy --which there are slim pickings of those around here.

[Nami]

But at the same time, I don't think it's wrong to admit that God will not always be enough for us. God was obviously not enough for Adam, and since Adam was closer to God than we'll be, I think that speaks volumes.

I'd have to disagree... but it could get theological, so if it is.. Mod's feel free to delete my post ^_^

God should always be enough for us, of course we long to have a partner, but true JOY not happiness is provided by God and we only experience that sort of Joy when God is involved in our lives. Seeking happiness outside of God and saying "He isn't enough" well, that tells me that God isn't good enough for that said person. Of course we will have happiness outside of God, He created all emotions, He'll know we will find it. But REAL JOY, that deep over-flowing Joy, only comes from God, my sister pointed out that; someone can be hurting on the outside, but be joyful on the inside because of their love for God. Take Joseph for instance. ^_^ (And yes, I agree God should be our main focus, and when He is, we usually are doing just fine.)

Anyway, I stand by my belief that even shy boys should pursue women. Hey, if that girl wants to chase a guy, that's usually a good way to lose them.

[MrKrillz0r]

Both my previous relationships I was the one who was being persued, I guess I'm that un-manly after all.

[broly146]

Yes, I agree that one cannot make blanket statements about genders and what they should act like/be like. People are individuals --with their own personality, interests, opinions, backgrounds, etc. To say that they must fit into a set mold is insulting to their individuality. Diversity is beautiful. I am not exactly a girly-girl --I'm a bit of a tomboy, actually, though reserved.

I also agree that a guy should not have to earn someone's love. Though, due to my background and growing up in an abusive home, he does have to earn my trust. One of my biggest fears is ending up in an abusive relationship --I tend to be very passive (defense mechanism), so it would be easy for a guy to take advantage of that.

I am afraid to express interest in another guy. It took me 3 years to tell my guy friend how I felt about him --and I was turned down. Even though we are still friends, I am reluctant to do it again. Now I know how guys feel when girls turn them down.

I've pretty much given up home for a relationship at this time. I'm not sure who would want to be with a sick girl and stay with me among all the specialist visits, tests, days confined to bed, not being able to keep up with housework (so my room looks awful), etc. It'd take one heck of a saint of a guy --which there are slim pickings of those around here.

I'm sure there is someone guy who will be willing to stay with you no matter the circumstances, just have faith that God will help you get there.

[Nate]

God should always be enough for us, of course we long to have a partner

If that was true, then why did God create Eve? And you can't say "for reproduction," because many creatures reproduce asexually, or God could have just made more humans from the dust. So, since reproduction is not an acceptable answer, why did God create Eve if God is all that is necessary for us to be fulfilled?

EDIT: I guess I should say answer in PM, probably, because this is off-topic of the main thread. Thought about this just now and figured it's probably a conversation for either PM or another thread, so this one can stay on topic.

[Seto_Sora]

I've pretty much given up home for a relationship at this time. I'm not sure who would want to be with a sick girl and stay with me among all the specialist visits, tests, days confined to bed, not being able to keep up with housework (so my room looks awful), etc. It'd take one heck of a saint of a guy --which there are slim pickings of those around here.

I'm so sorry that you've gone through this. I do want to encourage you that there are men out there who are indeed "a saint of a guy" or else gentlemen, as I'd call them. They meybe few but they are there.
So I want to encourage you that the only one to love unconditionally is infact Christ Jesus. Though hard to learn, I have discovered that if Christ is truly my love and He loves me, then if never I find a spouse He will be all I ever need. I've heard this from others and I know how little encouraging it can be sometimes. But really and truly it has brought me so much peace. What else can I say? Wait? Its hard to wait, I know. I guess I want to leave you with this; that there are gentlemen out there. Just as we have faith in the Love of God, have faith that there are real men out there who really know how to love.

SDG

[broly146]

[quote="PatrickEklektos (post: 1476313)"]I'm so sorry that you've gone through this. I do want to encourage you that there are men out there who are indeed "a saint of a guy" or else gentlemen, as I'd call them. They meybe few but they are there.
So I want to encourage you that the only one to love unconditionally is infact Christ Jesus. Though hard to learn, I have discovered that if Christ is truly my love and He loves me, then if never I find a spouse He will be all I ever need. I've heard this from others and I know how little encouraging it can be sometimes. But really and truly it has brought me so much peace. What else can I say? Wait? Its hard to wait, I know. I guess I want to leave you with this]


that is also a good point

[Atria35]

Anyway, I stand by my belief that even shy boys should pursue women. Hey, if that girl wants to chase a guy, that's usually a good way to lose them.

Utter lie.

One of my female friends has the issue of guy-chasing down to an art. She can get a date in no-time flat, with her being the one who's doing the pursuing. And they're all great guys.

[Nate]

Not to mention the countless successful marriages that started with the girl pursuing the guy...like my grandparents, for example. They were married almost 62 years, and she was the one pursuing him.

So no, a girl chasing a guy isn't a good way for her to lose him. If the relationship fails when the girl pursues the guy, it would have failed even if the guy had pursued the girl.

[broly146]

Not to mention the countless successful marriages that started with the girl pursuing the guy...like my grandparents, for example. They were married almost 62 years, and she was the one pursuing him.

So no, a girl chasing a guy isn't a good way for her to lose him. If the relationship fails when the girl pursues the guy, it would have failed even if the guy had pursued the girl.

That is so true Nate. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[piffle]

I considered writing a long post addressing all the things people were pointing out to me. (I even started it). But I thought it would be better to answer why I believe it, instead of just what I believe. I think why I believe would explain much better what I believe, at any rate.

The Bible orders men to "love their wives as Christ loves the church" (Eph. 5:22-25). As we should model ourselves after Christ, I believe that men and women should model their relationships on Him as well. We, the Church, are the Bride. Wouldn't it be logical to model our earthly marriages after the ultimate Marriage?

Can you imagine the Church dominating of Christ?
Christ sought US, not the other way around. He was the one who initiated first contact. He was the One who wooed us into loving Him, and He was also the one who proposed spending eternity with us.
We, as Christians, are called to be meek, obedient, ready, submissive, and to rely on Christ. Yet we are also called to be warriors, advocates of Christ. That doesn't strike me at all as being weak or shy. Why do people get all in a frenzy when women are called to be submissive?
Women can be strong. And they can be submissive. The two are inextricably linked, not two separate entities.
Guys are to be modeled after Christ, who nurtures, cares for, protects, and loves His bride. In turn, the Bride must respect, honor, and cherish her husband.

I view dating as way to find my husband. I'm not out for "fun" relationships, I'm not looking for something temporary. I want to be able to look my husband in the eye one day and tell him I saved all of me for him, not just bits and pieces of a broken heart shattered through meaningless relationships.
Therefore I'm picky about the guy I'd date. If I'm supposed to marry someone, I know God knows who he is. I know if we're supposed to be together, God will find a way. He certainly doesn't need my help. Eric Ludy said it well. If God lined up a group of guys in front of me and said, "Go ahead and pick", I'd fall to my knees and say, "Lord, YOU pick!"

[Mouse2010]

But girls- if the guy you want doesn't feel like you're worth the trouble of gathering the nerve to ask you out, do you really want him?

I've heard this theory before. It's one of the main concepts behind that book The Rules that came out in the 90s. But you know, it didn't work too well for the authors of the book: at least one of them ended up divorcing her husband.

One of the flaws in this theory is that it puts all the burden of risking rejection on guys/men. I just don't think that's fair. Why should men have to be the ones who are always running the risk of being turned down? That may be the way it's traditionally been in American culture, but there's no reason why it would have to be that way. (Don't confuse culturally-constructed gender roles with a divine plan!)

This theory also seems to assume that men are always able to tell which women they'd be interested in/compatible with. Sometimes, people are compatible but don't realize it until given a nudge by circumstances or match-making friends, right? Other times, person A is interested in person B, but person B doesn't even consider person A, despite being potentially compatible. If A is a man, great! He can ask B out. But if A is a girl, you're suggesting that she can only resort to flirting and such to attempt to draw B's attention to her. Wouldn't it be simpler if she just asked him if he was interested, or invited him to go out?

If the man is supposed to be a pillar of spiritual strength and discipline in a marriage, shouldn't he to have the maturity to ask someone he likes out?

I wonder if this is a factor in the differing opinions? Those who believe in a mutual submission model of marriage rather than male headship might not see the issue of who initiates a relationship as theologically significant.

[Nami]

Utter lie.

One of my female friends has the issue of guy-chasing down to an art. She can get a date in no-time flat, with her being the one who's doing the pursuing. And they're all great guys.

Ah, you missed a word]If that was true, then why did God create Eve? And you can't say "for reproduction," because many creatures reproduce asexually, or God could have just made more humans from the dust. So, since reproduction is not an acceptable answer, why did God create Eve if God is all that is necessary for us to be fulfilled?

EDIT: I guess I should say answer in PM, probably, because this is off-topic of the main thread. Thought about this just now and figured it's probably a conversation for either PM or another thread, so this one can stay on topic.[/QUOTE]

I won't argue with you Nate, I already know how unmovable you are. Besides, I respect the fact that that is what you believe. Not to say its wrong. That's how you feel, and what I said is how I Feel.

[Atria35]

[quote="Nami (post: 1476332)"]Ah, you missed a word]

Ah! Yes, I did miss that word. Sorry.

[broly146]

There are so many opinions I can't keep up with everyone...