The Christian Self-Esteem Movement.

[Dante]

I don't even know how to describe how valuable self-value is today - I can only say that many of us are bankrupt of it and no matter how hard we try, no matter what we "achieve", societies methods of conveying it provides no emotional nutrition - like emotional iceberg lettuce. Something about the way we designed our culture is so anti-human that it drains the emotional life-blood of it's own until they are completely destroyed (what they do with that energy, I can't even fathom). Personally I think a good part of it has to do with our opinion that physical needs are greater then emotional ones - emotional needs are almost mocked in the same vein that society mocks anything it perceives as feminine. Of course, it might have to do with us treating each other as statistics, objects, problems... the thinking, feeling, truly alive human being is the most hated creature of western civilization - it doesn't care if Pepsi is better then Coke.

Ultimately though, society may mock truth, but they cannot avoid the consequence of their actions - they are not above the laws of the universe. Because of our ignorance, we try to pin the devastation of depression on those that gain it - treating their vulnerability as an inferiority - as diseased or even selfishness. But just because others perceive themselves as valuable and we can't acquire it - doesn't mean we're any less essential. If the depression is right, their lives are as meaningless as ours, their futile attempt at living a mere illusion of the mind. And if they're right - we might just be critical after all - so it's rather important that we are able to experience this self-value instead of taking our own lives or collapsing into a psychological apocalypse.

Frankly, I don't think campaigns like these can truly help with depression - it's like putting a band-aid over a gunshot wound. The only "cure" lies in completely destroying and rebuilding society from the ground up in a way that actually meets our needs as we now are aware of them - even if less "efficient" as an economy or anything else - none of it matters if it's value to human life isn't maximized - everything else is expendable. Even then, you're simply helping the next generation - I have no clue for instance how my depression will influence the rest of my life, needless to say I know my parents look at me differently, Mom thinks my moral compass is a little more warped then she used to think of me.

Maybe it's true, maybe I'm a Reliant K "pardon me while I throw-up" kid when this thing is over - but how would anyone expect me to go through this and come out "normal".

Given the ages of others on here - I won't go into why. Suffice it to say it's not something that should be posted I think.

After weeks, months, years of absolute, toxic emotional devastation - even if the pain stops - you become your scars and whatever odd outcomes they provide. In some ways you are forced to finally accept the truth, sometimes you feel that goes contrary to even the traditions your family taught - you strike back at the sayings of elders. But of course, some parts of you are dark - you can't negate that, and for whatever reason, God doesn't see fit to either - thinking back you can consider that maybe you deserve it. Maybe the scars are necessary for whatever the value of my life actually is - who knows. And let me tell you, wrapping your Christianity around this new Alician Wonderland is a real fun time - it becomes quite complicated trying to figure out who you are as related to Christ after your minds been emotionally nuked - spiritual complexities and problems abound and pastors who are as messed up as you are few and far between.

So if you can get self-value in others before it escalates, before the devastation sets in - by all means do everything that you can. I doubt this society is going to change any time soon without some kind of Tyler Durden - and I haven't begun selling soap yet. And if you have the will to live, if you have that self-value, don't ever think lightly of it - bind it to yourself with chains of steel -as it is the lifeblood of your soul and a vast portion of your humanity (whether you realize it or not) derives from that central value. It is among your most prized possessions.

[ChristianKitsune]

This thread is very frustrating on so many levels. :/
I think if more "Christians" valued each other for their hearts and not look down on each other for their physical appearances things would be a lot better.

It just kind of seems to be counter productive to judge someone like that, and seems to put stipulations on their looks, when, Gosh I don't really think God cares so why should we?

It's hard though, speaking from a long bout with low self-esteem, and being overweight. When one looks in their mirror will we always like who is looking back? I know I struggle with this, and I certainly don't need anyone telling me I don't measure up, because you know what? I know deep down, I totally do...

sorry if I sounded rude or anything, this thread is just mega-depressing.

[Nate]

Personally I think a good part of it has to do with our opinion that physical needs are greater then emotional ones

But this is actually true. Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs states that physical needs are required to be met before all other things. The Bible even states this as well:

Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace]Frankly, I don't think campaigns like these can truly help with depression[/QUOTE]
I think Okami might take issue with this statement. Have you not been reading her posts in this thread?

[Dante]

I think Okami might take issue with this statement. Have you not been reading her posts in this thread?

I have, and respect that she will disagree - but ultimately I believe unless society changes I think we're only dealing with the symptoms and not the root cause that continues to agitate in the background. I wish I didn't feel that way - I wish we could put an end to this vast source of human suffering in such an action - because I realize that she and others have worked so diligently to try and make a difference - and I'm sure in those affected they have made a difference.

I would be more then happy to see her prove me wrong and heal this world - I would this far more then I'd ever want to be "right".

[aliveinHim]

I had always wondered why can't we see everyone equally instead of favoring the prettier people more. I don't thikn that people should tell someone who is not physically attractive that that person should be a model. One time, My cousin and I were browsing on my facebook page and I was showing him some of my friends pics. Just for the heck of it, we decided to read the comments. One of the girls who's pics we were looking at wasn't stunning but she had a lot of comments how gorgeous she was. Mommy said that they were all lying to her because she in now way shape or form has a pretty face structure (actually she has beautiful deep blue eyes). But why does it matter. Mommy said when she was in high school, all the girls didn't go around and tell eachother how they were all gorgeous. I don't mean to insult anyone but I don't think we should make a stink about beauty and looks on the outside. I was reading Proverbs 31 a while ago and I realized that's what makes a woman beautiful.

My facebook mommy is not a natural beauty queen but she is one of the most beautiful women alive. She adopted a baby born at 1.2 lbs who was also extremely sickly. She gave up a lot of things to take care of that child. God has blessed her by bringing the little baby Brianna to almost full health now. She's extremely sacrificial, humble, and serving. Instead of lying to girls, we should tell them how they're beautiful on the inside. Then, it reflects on the outside. It's taken me a really long time to swallow that pill.

Don't get me wrong, the outside does matter to some extent. You want to dress nicely, stay physically fit (for the health reasons), and maintain proper hygiene. Go with what looks good on your body, not necessarily what the trend is (but you can still be stylish).

[Yuki-Anne]

But maybe those people really do think she's gorgeous. Maybe their idea of beautiful is different from yours.

That's what we're talking about; people's standards of beauty are not all the same. Those people might not be lying; that might be what they actually think.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I'm not sure what a FaceBook mommy is but anyway.
I think opinions and beliefs about beauty can swing to two extremes - placing too much emphasis on outer appearance and upholding the beautiful people, while deriding those who don't fit the mould. Or placing so much emphasis on inner beauty and upholding the beauty of the average person that they deride those with outer beauty. It's easy to be jealous of people but putting down either side isn't beneficial either. Just something to think about.

Eg. I'm skinny and I get crap from people for it (I'm not anorexic though) but it's no different from when large person get crap from people. Neither is showing respect for people and yet it seems more acceptable to give crap to skinny people.

[K. Ayato]

[quote="Yuki-Anne (post: 1465755)"] Maybe their idea of beautiful is different from yours.

That's what we're talking about]

AMEN!

[Okami]

I have, and respect that she will disagree -

Actually, I don't necessarily disagree. These organizations point to something larger, a message to look up and see beauty and hope. It's not so much the organizations that help "cure" the "wound" but rather the positive attitude they portray in linking people to get help. Taking TWLOHA, for instance, they specify that they are not trained professionals, but they take the time to map out several paths towards getting real help for whatever a person may be facing (self-harm/eating disorders/suicide/etc.)

People need help when it comes to these things. The organization can only help point in that direction.

[Maledicte]

Just because people compliment the appearance of someone you don't think is attractive, you think they're lying to them? That's a bit shallow, isn't it?

Mommy said when she was in high school, all the girls didn't go around and tell eachother how they were all gorgeous.

Well, I think it's time for a change now, don't you?

[Nate]

Mommy said that they were all lying to her because she in now way shape or form has a pretty face structure

Wow, no offense, but your mom sounds like a horrible person.

Mommy said when she was in high school, all the girls didn't go around and tell eachother how they were all gorgeous.

Yeah well when I was in high school people smoked in the bathroom. Does that make that okay too? Appealing to "When I was a kid" is nonsensical and flat out stupid.

Besides, as others have said, just because someone tells a person "You're beautiful" and the person doesn't seem physically attractive to you doesn't make that person a liar.

I know a guy in the Navy who liked fat women. And when I say fat, I mean like 900 pounds. The ones that can't even stand up because of how many rolls of fat there are on them. He thought they were hot. He thought they were far more beautiful than any skinny woman. He wasn't lying, he wasn't trying to be funny. He had a different standard of attractiveness than other people. Everyone looks at people differently, and to accuse someone of lying because their standards of beauty are different is pretty rude and egotistical.

[Makachop^^128]

Just my thoughts:
I think God makes people beautiful, just like he makes the flowers or anything else beautiful. I personally think its fine to tell people they look nice in fact I encourage it, now putting down people because they aren't pretty, or not taking in their personality first seems judgmental and mean to me, but I do think God made people with good looks for a reason, who knows you could use it for ministry somehow, I don't know its his plan but it is important and I don't see why its bad to tell people so. Personality comes first but Looks aren't bad, and I think every girl really really wants to be pretty, and wanted and thats fine its how God made us. Just need to find the faith in God to see how he has made you beautiful.

[Nate]

I personally think its fine to tell people they look nice in fact I encourage it

Good Prize! Ding!

now putting down people because they aren't pretty, or not taking in their personality first seems judgmental and mean to me

I agree that putting down people because of their looks is judgmental and mean. But, I think that's true even if you take in their personality first. It's still rude and jerkish to go "Wow, that girl is so nice, she's one of the sweetest girls I've ever met...too bad she's hideously ugly."

[aliveinHim]

I'm not sure what a FaceBook mommy

Oh, she's one person from my church who I put as my mommy on Facebook. I have a whole fake facebook family. I have siblings, children, etc. It's a joke a lot of people do but everyone knows that they're not real.

I don't believe we tell people they're ugly. That's what's sad about outer beauty. It's very subjective and often picks favorites. God does make people beautiful, I do believe, but God cares more about your inner beauty than your outer beauty. Sure, the Bible does tell of certain people being attractive. Isaiah 53 says that Jesus had no comeliness about Him. Verse 4 says that He was despised by people even though He's the King of Kings. Beauty doesn't really matter. Sure, you want to be attracted to the person who you want to date/marry but some people become more attractive. I've met some guys who are definately not head turners not lookers but they appear really handsome because of how much they love God and their excellent character.

I know that outer beauty is something just about every girl worries about. I'm not the type of girl who gets flocks of boys nor am very popluar with them. Most of my guy friends are already married and I'm friends with them because I'm friends with their wives (most of my friends are either way older than me or way younger than me). But my guy friends tell me what they find attractive in girls and they tell me about the inside more than the outside. They tell me to keep on growing in my faith and don't stop loving God. That's what will make me beautiful.

[Yuki-Anne]

Nobody is saying that inner beauty is unimportant or less important than outer beauty. I think everyone would agree that what makes a person beautiful comes from inside.

Something I've observed about people who are truly beautiful: They tell others that they are beautiful. Because everyone needs encouragement, and everyone truly is beautiful. To make evaluations of someone else's appearance and determine that others are "lying" to them when they say, "you're beautiful"... that's just awful and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is a habit you should stop while you're young. Even if you don't say what you're thinking, that attitude is still awful. It is not a beautiful attitude.

[Atria35]

To make evaluations of someone else's appearance and determine that others are "lying" to them when they say, "you're beautiful"... that's just awful and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is a habit you should stop while you're young. Even if you don't say what you're thinking, that attitude is still awful. It is not a beautiful attitude.

This. Just because they don't meet what you see as beautiful doesn't mean they aren't beautiful to someone else.

Nate posted a great example of how one person's view of beauty can be entirely different from another's. And that man would not be lying to those women when he said that they were beautiful.

[Lynna]

Nobody is saying that inner beauty is unimportant or less important than outer beauty. I think everyone would agree that what makes a person beautiful comes from inside.

Something I've observed about people who are truly beautiful: They tell others that they are beautiful. Because everyone needs encouragement, and everyone truly is beautiful. To make evaluations of someone else's appearance and determine that others are "lying" to them when they say, "you're beautiful"... that's just awful and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is a habit you should stop while you're young. Even if you don't say what you're thinking, that attitude is still awful. It is not a beautiful attitude.

QFT!!!!
Also, along with the whole christian self-esteem movement, I think self-esteem is important, but I think it's even more important to be selfless and have a Good relationship with God. Because I find that while self-esteem is good, it's rather temporary at times. For example, someone tells you you're beautiful, you feel good, but then the next day you see the pictures all over the media of models a thousand times more "beautiful" than you, and your self esteem takes a critical hit. But if instead you are focused on Jesus and helping others, it doesn't matter so much.
As I said before, though, I do believe all people are beautiful, because God made them so, and if I say it I'm not lying.

[aliveinHim]

I'm bad at remembering references but Jesus said it's better to esteem others better than yourself. Confidence is another thing. It's nice to give confidence boosts to friends for encouragement. If I really like so and so's hair or clothes or whatever, I'll tell them they look cute. I do admit, I do like being told I'm beautiful after years of feeling ugly (considering the fact I've got the biggest nose and forehead on the face of the planet). I've learned how to accept myself for how I look and I've been told by people that beauty on the outside isn't as big of a deal as inner true beauty. I agree with Nate, one person's view of beauty differs from another. I prefer blue, green, or grey eyes over brown eyes (I've got dark brown eyes). I don't think that brown eyes are ugly, I just prefer brighter colors over darker ones. I prefer blonde/light brown hair over dark hair (I do think that dark hair is attractive but in my opinion, I like light colors). We all have different tastes. I've met some guys who go crazy for girls who have long hair and other guys who prefer girls with short hair. It's all subjective and I don't think we should work ourselves to hard trying to worry too much. If I have a friend who's not stunningly gorgeous, I will tell her she has something pretty about her (like eyes or hairstyle). A lot of model shots are just photoshopped anyway.

[Htom Sirveaux]

I never did think much of myself, but it doesn't bother me anymore. I just smirk and joke about what a pathetic idiot/twerp/nerd/chick repellent/what-have-you I am. And if that sounds harsh, believe me, I was much worse and much more serious when I was a teenager. I was constantly down on myself. I really believed I was a waste of space. Now I'm comfortable just taking myself lightly.

[Nate]

I'm bad at remembering references but Jesus said it's better to esteem others better than yourself.

Actually it was Paul, in Phillippians 2. And he doesn't say that, what he says is:

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

It isn't really talking about esteem, it's talking about helping others.

I've been told by people that beauty on the outside isn't as big of a deal as inner true beauty.

While this is true, everyone likes to look good, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to look good. If it becomes obsessive, then that's bad obviously, but when someone has image issues telling them "Inner beauty is what's important anyway" that (to them) sounds like a really nice way of saying "Work on your inner beauty because your outer beauty is a lost cause." Which again, is pretty condescending.

You're missing the point of the "inner beauty" thing. The "inner beauty" talk is for attractive people who think they're so great because they consider themselves far more beautiful than others. That's the purpose of it. Telling it to someone who doesn't consider themselves attractive usually doesn't help.

It's kind of like the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa felt she was ugly.

Marge: Lisa, I know a song that will cheer you up. [singing] "There once was an ugly duckling-"

Lisa: So you think I'm ugly?!

Marge: No. No, I meant you were one of the good-looking ducks... that makes fun of the ugly one.

Marge was misusing the point of the Ugly Duckling story, it isn't meant for kids who think they're unattractive, it's meant for people who make fun of those they consider unattractive.

[goldenspines]

I may regret this, but heeey, beauty is something quite important in my life since I struggled with the idea of it constantly.

I was going to say a lot more in this post, but everyone summed things up for me while I was typing this up.

Let's start with this.

13 For You created my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in Your book
before one of them came to be. -Psalm 139:13-16
God cared about our inward AND outward appearance when He created us. He doesn't see some people as less attractive than others, and nor should we. And God doesn't make junk.

If you read one thing in this post, read this. Every heard of love languages? Well, there's one that actually involves speech. Like, if someone gives you a heartfelt compliment, you feel loved. And by giving someone a compliment, you are showing the love God commands us to show to one another; without judging, but simply love for that person because you think they are awesome inside and out and you want to tell them.

Mommy said that they were all lying to her because she in now way shape or form has a pretty face structure.

This is one of the most disrespectful and unloving things one can say about any person and her friends. If I think one of my friends is gorgeous, I'm going to say it because I love them and because I believe they are gorgeous, not because I want to "lie to make them feel better". What does she know about their vision of beauty? What does she know about that girl's friends? From that reaction, I can assume she doesn't know enough. Therefore, she had no right to say that about that girl or her friends.



But yeah, I probably won't post in this thread again with my opinion. So, if desired, you can shoot me a PM if you have a complaint/question.

[Radical Dreamer]

I may regret this, but heeey, beauty is something quite important in my life since I struggled with the idea of it constantly.

I was going to say a lot more in this post, but everyone summed things up for me while I was typing this up.

Let's start with this.

13 For You created my inmost being]My frame [/B]was not hidden from You
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in Your book
before one of them came to be. -Psalm 139:13-16
God cared about our inward AND outward appearance when He created us. He doesn't see some people as less attractive than others, and nor should we. And God doesn't make junk.

If you read one thing in this post, read this. Every heard of love languages? Well, there's one that actually involves speech. Like, if someone gives you a heartfelt compliment, you feel loved. And by giving someone a compliment, you are showing the love God commands us to show to one another; without judging, but simply love for that person because you think they are awesome inside and out and you want to tell them.

This is one of the most disrespectful and unloving things one can say about any person and her friends. If I think one of my friends is gorgeous, I'm going to say it because I love them and because I believe they are gorgeous, not because I want to "lie to make them feel better". What does she know about their vision of beauty? What does she know about that girl's friends? From that reaction, I can assume she doesn't know enough. Therefore, she had no right to say that about that girl or her friends.



But yeah, I probably won't post in this thread again with my opinion. So, if desired, you can shoot me a PM if you have a complaint/question.

I'm just quoting this for emphasis, because I agree 100%. I'd been holding off on posting in this thread, but this says what I had in mind more than well enough. XD

[Lynna]

I'm bad at remembering references but Jesus said it's better to esteem others better than yourself. Confidence is another thing. It's nice to give confidence boosts to friends for encouragement. If I really like so and so's hair or clothes or whatever, I'll tell them they look cute. I do admit, I do like being told I'm beautiful after years of feeling ugly (considering the fact I've got the biggest nose and forehead on the face of the planet). I've learned how to accept myself for how I look and I've been told by people that beauty on the outside isn't as big of a deal as inner true beauty. I agree with Nate, one person's view of beauty differs from another. I prefer blue, green, or grey eyes over brown eyes (I've got dark brown eyes). I don't think that brown eyes are ugly, I just prefer brighter colors over darker ones. I prefer blonde/light brown hair over dark hair (I do think that dark hair is attractive but in my opinion, I like light colors). We all have different tastes. I've met some guys who go crazy for girls who have long hair and other guys who prefer girls with short hair. It's all subjective and I don't think we should work ourselves to hard trying to worry too much. If I have a friend who's not stunningly gorgeous, I will tell her she has something pretty about her (like eyes or hairstyle). A lot of model shots are just photoshopped anyway.

Am I the only person who thinks big foreheads are really cute?
And I think it's funny you mentioned guys likeing girls with long or short hair, since Nate has always made a point that he likes girls with short hair better XD

[Atria35]

@ aliveinHim- You're saying a lot of contradictory things- first, you say that people should focus on inner beauty. And then you say that you get upset when you see other people's photos where their friends 'lie' to them and say they're beautiful when they're physically not (according to you).

Either you have very mixed feelings on this issue, or you aren't expressing youself very well.

[Maledicte]

13 For You created my inmost being]My frame [/B]was not hidden from You
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in Your book
before one of them came to be. -Psalm 139:13-16
God cared about our inward AND outward appearance when He created us. He doesn't see some people as less attractive than others, and nor should we. And God doesn't make junk.

THANK YOU.

[Fish and Chips]

Oh, she's one person from my church who I put as my mommy on Facebook. I have a whole fake facebook family. I have siblings, children, etc. It's a joke a lot of people do but everyone knows that they're not real.

Yeah. It's just a joke, you know. Everyone knows they're not real.

Not real.



Not real.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Wow. That photo is super-creepy (but awesome).

[Yuki-Anne]

Wow. That photo is super-creepy (but awesome).

QFT. lol.

[PrincessZelda]

Huh. I actually have real family members listed as my family on FB. I have like, my entire, extended family listed XD;;

[Yuki-Anne]

[quote="PrincessZelda (post: 1465919)"]Huh. I actually have real family members listed as my family on FB. I have like, my entire, extended family listed XD]

Truefax. My real family is listed on my FB. My fb mommy is my real mommy.

btw I'm never heard my facebook mommy call anybody ugly. Just gonna throw that one out there.