Mobile Suit Gundam

[Agloval]

[spoiler]since the Earth is about to be plunged into a nuclear winter via asteroids being dropped onto it, it might be a good idea to use your military influence/status as a war hero to GET YOUR EFFING WIFE AND KIDS OFF OF THE PLANET AND NOT LEAVE THEM TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES![/spoiler]

Within the movie, this is, I guess, an unaddressed problem. Going beyond any evidence inside the film (a parlour game, but one I enjoy), I can think of a few remarks on that:

[spoiler]Maybe Bright doesn't have all that much influence? It's suggested that the rest of the Fed military are leaving Londo Bell to do the heavy lifting, and Bright's past relationship with the Federation has been rocky at times.

Or, supposing Bright possesses the influence required, maybe he just thought it would be unethical or unprofessional to get his family special treatment? After all, the man who does pull rank to get Hathaway onto a shuttle isn't the nicest of characters.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]When Kamille's mom died, I felt just as sorry for Jerid as I did for Kamille.[/spoiler]

This is absolutely how I remember feeling when I watched that scene -- the fact that it was Jerid's superiors who bore most of the responsibility was just really, really cruel. I remember feeling quite shocked by those early episodes, even though I went into Zeta straight after finishing the first Gundam, and so wasn't exactly expecting rainbows and roses.

[blkmage]

You know, listening to the Gundam UC ED singles, I was struck by how a lot of the Gundam series lately (I can't really speak for the earlier shows) feel like their tone is set through their OP/ED themes. Like, compare the untz untz stuff of SEED and SEED Destiny, the more rock-ish stuff of 00, and the more pop-ish stuff with heavy beats for UC. I mean, it's nowhere near as pronounced a difference between, say, Macross series, but I bet there's a way to give someone a random single and have them be able to identify which series it goes with without necessarily having seen it.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

A lil bit of tl;dr

RECCOA UGH >:[ And I felt that Scirocco kinda didn't get enough screen time, but that's just me.

I actually found Reccoa really interesting, especially in the later part of the series. Totally agree about Sciroco, though. I could've used more time to get to know him.

I know Jerid is universally reviled by the fans, but I actually kind of like the guy and think he's an interesting character. Sure, he's not perfect. He's pretty dumb in the beginning, rather inept both socially and in the cockpit, and a little bit of a jerk, but he is determined to be the best he can be and he tries really hard. He knows what he wants and he does what he can to get it, and that's something.

Well, I am part of the fan base, and I really like Jerid. I found myself rooting for him quite a bit, and I really enjoyed how he sort of slowly became more and more obsessed with Kamille. He rises through the ranks of the Titans (his original goal) pretty much because he survives. The honorable thing to do would have been to "go down w/ the ship" in one of those battles, but Jerid's fixation overrides his sense of shame. This fixation becomes so all-consuming, it's like he doesn't even realize that he is well on his way to achieving the goal he had at the begining of the series. Or maybe he does realize it, and it just doesn't mean anything if he doesn't beat Kamille. Reminded me of Ramsus from Xenogears, actually.

There were times when I didn't know if I should root for him, or for Kamille. [spoiler]When Kamille's mom died, I felt just as sorry for Jerid as I did for Kamille. I mean, he didn't know there was a person in that capsule-- he thought it was a bomb or something, and was told not to read his orders until practically the last minute. He didn't say to himself, "BWAHAHA I'M GONNA KILL KAMILLE'S MOM BECAUSE I AM EVILLLL". It wasn't like that at all.[/spoiler]

Ah-greed.

Anyways, yeah. About CCA. I-- I didn't like it. At all. Have I talked about that in this thread already...?

I would love to hear your take on it.

Within the movie, this is, I guess, an unaddressed problem. Going beyond any evidence inside the film (a parlour game, but one I enjoy), I can think of a few remarks on that:

[spoiler]Maybe Bright doesn't have all that much influence? It's suggested that the rest of the Fed military are leaving Londo Bell to do the heavy lifting, and Bright's past relationship with the Federation has been rocky at times.

Or, supposing Bright possesses the influence required, maybe he just thought it would be unethical or unprofessional to get his family special treatment? After all, the man who does pull rank to get Hathaway onto a shuttle isn't the nicest of characters.[/spoiler]

Both theories seem plausible enough, but the second one sort of damages Bright's character, for me. [spoiler]Surely, if his family dies, the fact that they waited in line like everybody else won't be any consolation. Sending a personal shuttle to grab them wouldn't be denying anyone else their place on the bigger shuttles. Bright wouldn't be sentencing anyone to death. I mean, I understand the whole Kantian take on things, but you would expect him to love his family more than anyone else and use any means he can to prevent their demise. If he doesn't, isn't he kind of a jerk, not to mention a bad father? It's different, however, if he doesn't have the required influence, as you point out.[/spoiler]

[ShiroiHikari]

I could say a lot about CCA, but I'll try to keep it on the short side.

One problem I have with it is that it's rushed. They tried to wrap up the whole UC timeline in two hours? Bad idea, if you ask me.

The other big problem with it is the characters. Most of the new characters get rushed development, at best. I really think that there should have been as few new characters as possible due to the short running time. Also, few of the new ones are likable. Quess is downright unlikable, as is Hathaway (in my opinion anyway). Gyunei is just...kinda there. Same with Chen, she didn't really get much screen time.

The old characters don't really seem like themselves, especially Char. I mean, what the hell happened? Did he die at the end of Zeta after all and got replaced with a cyber-Newtype clone? Did he get brain damaged from being out in space without enough oxygen? Or did he just finally go completely insane? He was pretty awesome in Zeta, and then in CCA he's ready to drop a giant rock on the earth in an effort to...do what? Save the earth? Force humanity into space? Make everyone become Newtypes? I just...don't even know. It doesn't ring true to me, and I fail to see how dropping a giant rock on the earth will really solve anything except maybe an overpopulation crisis. Maybe I missed something somewhere.

Really, the whole movie seems like nothing more than an excuse for Char and Amuro to fight again and to kill off pretty much everyone that was left alive from Zeta and Double Zeta. I mean, I know this is Tomino we're talking about here, but did he really have to kill everyone?

[spoiler]I was **** off when Astonage died. I mean, the guy made it through two whole series and then died in a really pointless way. Come on! And why even introduce a girlfriend for Amuro if she's just going to die anyway? [/spoiler]

I should probably watch it again sometime just to see if I indeed missed something somewhere.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

I hear you Shiroi. Your concerns are legitimate, and the state of Char's character at the beginning of the CCA really should get more explanation than it does. I would hold that the same is true for Char at the start of Zeta.

However, I do think it is possible to piece things together to construct a picture of The Red Comet that makes sense and is fairly consistent.

**SPOILERS WITHIN**

Since he accomplished his short-term goal in the original MSG, the subsequent years should allow him to focus on his long-term ambitions, namely carrying on his father's legacy. However, he bears a lot of guilt, anger and shame over what happened to Lala, though he is able to put it aside for a while in Zeta to counteract the immediate threat of the Titans, much like he set it aside in MSG in order to put himself in the best possible position. All this combined with Char's reluctance to act as a political leader leads to Char playing the role he does in Zeta.

I think a few things happen near the end of Zeta that push Char to become the man we see in CCA. Haman attempts to revive the Zabi family, which would likely mean that the Spacenoids would once again be under the rule of a corrupt dictatorship and unable to truly live out the will and wishes of Char's late father. So, basically, the Zabis left a vacuum that someone was going to step into; either someone who had "incorrect" ideals or Char himself (carrying out his father's ideals). Also, and here I am speculating a bit, but the Gryps War must have demonstrated to Char that humanity couldn't change/develop on its own. I mean, the Titans certainly were a walking billboard for cruelty, what with the poison gas episodes and all. Waiting around for some pipe dream to be fulfilled would essentially sentence the planet Earth to destruction (so, not only does Char care a lot about mankind, he cares about the Earth as well).

Plunging the Earth into a nuclear winter would push humanity out into space, thus giving evolution that little push that it needs. The Earth, while temporarily "injured" will heal over time and, without human beings sucking the life out of it, will return to its former state of beauty. A perfect "cradle" for mankind, who, while in space, would develop into Newtypes. I guess Char believes that once the total population is out in space, he will have an easier time governing them all/quashing minor rebellions, etc.

Now, you mentioned that the movie seems like an excuse to get Amuro and Char to fight. While I don't agree that this is necessarily Tomino's thinking, I do believe there is an element of this thinking in Char's motivations to start the massive conflict in CCA. As we saw in the original MSG, Char can hold a grudge. For years. I believe once he stepped into his father's shoes and began carrying on his dreams, he saw an opportunity to exorcise those demons that plagued him in Zeta. Amuro had to pay for what happened to Lala. So, dropping asteroids on Earth actually kills two huge birds with one stone.

[blkmage]

[Agloval]

Both theories seem plausible enough, but the second one sort of damages Bright's character, for me.

[spoiler]Surely, if his family dies, the fact that they waited in line like everybody else won't be any consolation. Sending a personal shuttle to grab them wouldn't be denying anyone else their place on the bigger shuttles. Bright wouldn't be sentencing anyone to death. I mean, I understand the whole Kantian take on things, but you would expect him to love his family more than anyone else and use any means he can to prevent their demise. If he doesn't, isn't he kind of a jerk, not to mention a bad father?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]If it's 'a personal shuttle' with no ramifications then fine, but if by pulling rank to get his family off Earth Bright would be actively denying other people the same opportunity, then I dunno. I'm not much of an ethicist, and I also don't have a spouse and kids, so it's not my place to judge. It's quite a headscratcher, though.[/spoiler]

[Rocketshipper]

random question: Is Gundam UC being legally streamed anywhere? Or do I need to go buy the blu-ray?

[blkmage]

It's available on PSN.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

It's available on PSN.

And XBL. I think that PSN has the sub and XBL has the dub.

[Rocketshipper]

I did a search for it on PSN the other day, but I could not find it. What section is it under? I was probably looking in the wrong place.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Any news on the Turn A release dates? It was picked up by Bandai Ent last July, but since then I've heard nothing.

[ShiroiHikari]

Haven't heard anything new about that. I really hope they don't just sit on the license. It's way overdue as it is-- shoulda been licensed ten years ago.

I haven't heard much about the supposed re-release of MSG with the original audio and all that. It's supposed to come out this year, but who knows.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

So, started watching Double Oh.

I think the initial premise is fascinating and has tons of promise. Celestial Being is kind of like Zechs' final play in Wing taken to its logical end and placed in our own universe in order to facilitate social commentary.

Speaking of Wing, there is a bit of a complaint I have with 00 that occurs in Wing (maybe it's characteristic of AU Gundam?): 90% of the combat in these first episodes involves the Gundams annihilating mass numbers of mobile suits. Seeing them trample grunts gets a bit old. The battles usually felt more desperate in Zeta...the outcomes felt more uncertain (with Tomino directing...you just never know).

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Doube post for double oh.

I am watching the English dub on crunchyroll b/c it is free. Holy freaking crap...

Guys. You have to see this. The conversation you should hear starts at 17:16. There's awful acting throughout, but the gold is at 17:52. Please, somebody watch this...I am laughing so hard that I'm crying. Oh gosh...

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Am I the only one keeping this thread afloat?

I finished the first season of Gundam 00 the other day. I liked it a lot more than I thought I would, but there were some problems.

The setup for 00 felt similar to Wing: both involve Gundams being developed in secret in order to fight/overthrow the government. 00 is different enough, however, to distinguish itself. For one thing, the goals of the protagonists are quite lofty and transcend any particular outcome. I like the characters a LOT more. This could be because they get, you know, a bit of development.

Having said that, they are pretty much all crazy people. Everyone has some kind of overt mental disorder, except Graham...but, well, episode one of season two kind of brings that distinction to an end. The decisions that certain characters (Setsuna!) make are baffling. I mean, I understand that we are dealing with mentally unstable folks, but surely they understand the basic do's and don'ts of being a member of a secret army.

The action and animation deserve top grades. Lots of exciting action scenes that are very nicely animated. Well done stuff all around. I don't think there was one frame of stock/reused footage in the entire season (barring recaps/flashbacks, which were minimal). Whenever I found myself thinking, "Setsuna, you are being dumb," "Tieria, someone needs to teach you how to dress," or "Why the crap do these characters exist?" I could console myself with he fact that sweet robot-on-robot violence would ensue at some point soon.

The plot itself was quite decent. Thankfully, the show doesn't ever let the political status quo get stale and, as the series moves along, just which of the several sides has momentum changes regularly. Later battles take on that quality of desperation that the first ones were lacking. In the middle phase of the show, however, any attempts at establishing tension/desperation during battles is spoiled by bad writing.

My biggest specific problem with the show came in this middle section. There were a couple of deus ex machinas that felt quite forced. The most glaring: the introduction of the Trinitys. Man, do I hate the Trinitys. Did they serve a function in the story? Sure. Could the writers have executed the same function in a better way, a way that didn't involve introducing still more crazy people with alternate versions of the existing Gundams? Yes, sir. Seriously, once the Trinitys saved the day, it's like the writers didn't know what the heck to do with them. It didn't help matters that they are truly annoying characters.

The main antagonist. Why? Tell me why he wants to screw the good guys. Don't be evasive, show. Don't give me some one-liner answer with no meat on its bones. sigh.jpg. While I really liked the mostly believable soldier antagonists, the "boss" that emerges wasn't up to snuff in terms of fleshed-out motivations. Also: where did his mobile suit come from?

The beginning and end of the show really made up for the lackluster middle parts. I have already mentioned how the initial stages of the show hooked me, but the ending, too, was pretty bold. The writers weren't afraid to be decisive about what they wanted to accomplish with the ending. They gave us a definite ending, while setting the table nicely for season two.

[blkmage]

Oh my goodness, I remember thinking the exact same thing regarding the mental state of every single character.

Also Trinitys suck.

Graham is totally the best character on the show.

[ShiroiHikari]

I hate Nena Trinity.

Graham was cool until the writers decided to toss him by the wayside.

[blkmage]

I think you are the kind of people who would enjoy this.

[ShiroiHikari]

inb4 "Ple/Puru" debate.

I'm not sure which is worse for retarded names: SEED, 00, or Turn A. Let's just call it a 3-way tie and be done with it.

UC names are definitely silly, but they kinda have a certain ring to them sometimes. I kinda like "Seabook Arno", myself. Also, I always said it "Lila Mira Lila" because it flows better even though it's redundant. Lol Japanese Rs.

I'm a little surprised Gym Ghinganam (or however you spell it) wasn't included in the Turn A list.

Also it's not "Beecher", it's "Beecha", but that's not really much better, is it?

[TheSubtleDoctor]

You'd think that since 00 is set in our own universe, rather than the Universal Century, After Colony, etc., they would be all out of excuses. Sadly, as Shiroi points out, it's right up there with the worst offenders. I still can't get over Hallelujah Haptisim. The name is so bad that it got its own explanatory backstory. That doesn't make up for it, Mizushima.

[blkmage]

I'm trying to figure out how I missed Beside Pain. But yeah, the UC names are pretty great, while the 00 ones are more like ahahahahahaaha what. My favourite is still Bring Stabbity.

[ShiroiHikari]

I'm trying to figure out how I missed Beside Pain.

I don't remember that one either.

Also I've grown fond of "Full Frontal".

Speaking of Full Frontal, I still haven't been able to watch Gundam Unicorn 3, because my life is a pile of suck lately.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

my life is a pile of suck lately.

Boo!

The list excludes the amazing Pang Hercury from 00. How do these writers do it?

[Davidizer13]

Pang Hercury

I think they've got a pill for that.

So, intent on trying to figure out some of what's going on in SRW@Gaiden, I watched the first episode of MSG (0079 or whatever you crazy kids call it).

Everything about the presentation of the show - the cheesy 70s theme song, the scenes of characters running together and the cool robot transforming, and the whole "scientist dad builds a robot, hotshot pilot gets to drive it" thing - all of it suggests your usual early super robot romp, with our heroes fighting hostile, monstrous aliens while yelling a lot.

Then the Zeon pilots start talking to each other about their families and stuff. Then they blow up a jeep with people in it. At this point, we realize that this is going to be different from the the other shows that came before it. I'm impressed.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Season 2

Guys. In case you didn't know, this is a super robot show. And not in a good way. Some of those abilities (He QUANTIZED???)...ridiculous.

This was a weird watch for me. As I reflect, post-watch, on the various elements of the story, it seems like it was well-planned. Yet, the whole package just didn't click with me. Something about the second season felt off, and I just feel that it is inferior to the first.

Though there's nobody on the level of Katz or Qwessa, this show has a couple of peeps I really hate. Wang...man I hated her. Ribbons was my favorite character for like five seconds when he went all Bright on her.

Andre...Andre...How the crap did he get to live? HOW?!?

I realize that there are in-universe reasons that explain how Graham was acting, but I did not care for him much at all this season.

I get the fact that enemy aces get stale if you over-expose them, but compared to the first season, we barely saw Ali at all.

Now that Arthur Goodman's dead, who will play at the club?

The master villains were meh again. For me they were pretty boring. Not a good showing for antagonists in either season.[spoiler]the RX-78!!! That was fantastic.[/spoiler]What really kills me is that I thought the season had potential. S1 was solid, and I thought the ending was a fairly good setup for the second go-round. Season one took more chances, I feel. It was full of surprises. The objective of CB was so gutsy, the good guys are sort of terrorists, what is The Plan (tm) really?, etc. S2 seemed trite by comparison, and it has the aforementioned God Modes.

So I guess, this season was about the level I remember Wing being. That's not a ringing endorsement.

[ShiroiHikari]

Yeah, you and I might be the only people who think 00 S2 was freaking lame.

[Roy Mustang]

Yeah, you and I might be the only people who think 00 S2 was freaking lame.

Rises hand! I have felt that all of 00 was lame, just the first season was a bit better, but still 00 was still better then Seed!

[blkmage]

Yeah, general opinion seems to be that 00 S2 was the equivalent of Geass R2 to their respective first seasons: lolololol. If you thought that was hilarious, there's always the movie.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

People who compare 00-S2 with Zeta should be Brighted.

Yeah, I will probably end up buying the movie because I am a sad man.