Theologian: Facebook and Modern Technology are Killing Churches

[Nate]

Yeah, I don't mind if my pastor or even if everyone else in the church except me is conservative. I don't mind that at all. What I mind is when they try to make their politics part of the sermon. A pastor can say "Abortion is murder" all he wants, but if he says it from the pulpit, then sorry, I'm not going to attend that church.

And to fully admit to my hypocrisy, I wouldn't mind the politics from the pulpit if I agreed with them, but I don't. If there were more liberal churches around here, I wouldn't complain about them being conservative. But there aren't, so I have no choice but to complain, because I'm not going to go to a church that just makes me angry every week.

[Yamamaya]

If your church's main draws are a guilt trip, a political platform, and maybe a half-decent band/organist/choir/etc., then maybe getting more people to come shouldn't be your first concern. Maybe the one you need to get back is God.

I'm glad someone finally said this.

IMO, when a church's main goal becomes extremely political in nature you're going to start to lose members. It adds more so called "requirements" to being a Christian. Didn't vote for X political party? Not a Christian. Don't share the same opinions as us on X political issue? Not a Christian.

Guilt trips are also quite annoying. Ranting about how horrible a bad show is won't change the creator of the show. However showing him or her how to improve might change them.

[Dante]

I don't like it when people generalize over churches saying "American churches are like this". As I have said in a different thread a long time ago, I know that my own church is a very good church, and it saddens me to have people talk as though because it is American it is full of anti-diversity, emotional manipulation, and impersonality. It's true that in some places it can be hard to find churches that do not propagate good Christian values, but I think this is not an argument for having less churches]Facebook[/s] CAA.

I realize that we can't speak of churches in generalizations - certainly there are churches that have managed to escape these generalizations and managed to create a warm environment where love between members can flourish. Even rarer, there may be a church out there that coincides with belief systems like Nate's (and mine). In fact, the reason why I am a Christian today is because of one of the pastors in one of these Churches actually got it right (and miracle of miracles, did so while avoiding political views). Unfortunately, he was a youth pastor and evil of evils - I aged. (Hitting 25 is going to be murder to me, so if I set my birth-date on CAA back an extra year, you've been warned XD)

However, once I left that group, if taken as a whole, I'm afraid that there is a massive set of churches in the United States that are almost identical in nature. After all, if they were each extremely unique sub-cultures in and of themselves, the political concept of "The Evangelicals" couldn't exist. But we know it exists and politicians have even bet their careers on the fact that it exists. (Not to get into political territory, I'm just saying that it's evidence of the existence of a common cultural element that validate's what we refer to when we say "The American Church")

So similar are the experiences at these churches, that my religions teacher forbade us to go to another sect of Christianity in trying to learn about their religion for a final exploratory class project. He noted that it would give us nothing new to write about, because invariably, people find that these other churches are just like their old ones with a different name. In fact, I've even gone to two different sects and gotten the same exact sermon from the pastors - I church-hop; different scenery, same game.

I'm sorry, but I know by now that I'd be a better Christian if I spent an hour on CAA then I would by going to church for an hour. In fact, with the new religious policy, I'll probably grow more spiritually. Is it CAAs fault? No. You're telling me that they can raise up a multi-million dollar facilities with flashing lights and huge auditoriums with five cameras simultaneously aimed at the pastor and they can't do better then they are? Frankly, they're better off selling the building and giving Myth a giant server bank in Switzerland in an underground bunker. <- Just because it would be cool if he had a secret underground bunker filled with servers.

If your church's main draws are a guilt trip, a political platform, and maybe a half-decent band/organist/choir/etc., then maybe getting more people to come shouldn't be your first concern. Maybe the one you need to get back is God.

This. I mean, that's what I felt when I had that first youth pastor, the same Church with a different pastor ironically felt completely different. I don't know what it was about that guy, but he gave messages and - and it just seemed to click. Not political, it wasn't the worship (though they introduced me to Christian Rock) - it was how he could connect with youth and deliver... God.

[WhiteMage212]

MySpace and other social networks were already around before Facebook was even popular...

[Peanut]

I don't think small churches are inherently better than larger churches though, same as I don't think small classes are inherently better. Especially when you do consider things such as offerings, how much would a pastor make at a church with only ten members? Probably not enough to survive, he'd need a second job, which at some point would almost certainly affect his sermons or ability to help others outside of Sunday ("Pastor I have a problem." "Sorry I don't get off work for another five hours.").

I'd also like to mention that in the scenario you've brought up, a lot of times the Pastor does everything at a church like that too, and sometimes that includes stuff like maintenance and cleaning if they have their own building. At the very least, he's running any other ministries the church has besides just the main service. There are exceptions to this but, a lot of times, this is the case.

Anyway, I agree with Nate. I go to a Mega Church and can honestly say that its contains a community I'm connected to. It's also very diverse which is surprising since a few years ago I can remember it being a place filled with White, middle class families. Now we actually look like the area we are in. On top of this, my church has been very active in terms of outreaches and ministries which is great. With this being said, small churches can be just as good. I actually interviewed a pastor today from a small church in Baltimore City that's doing very well and is making a real impact in the community its in. It doesn't have the resources or even the diverse ministries that my church has but I'd probably say its doing just as well.

Yeah, this has been my experience as well. I don't care if my pastor, or family, or friends don't agree with my political views. What I do care about is being told that I am "an agent of the enemy" simply because our views in that area differ. Now, if they could prove that these were views that I must hold as a Christian, as they claim they are, then that would be a different matter and I would accept the rebuke. But as things currently stand, they are alienating both myself and a great number of both believers and non-believers.

I'd tell you this is common and has been since the early Church, but that wouldn't make anything better. Anyway, yeah, I'm not a fan of how individuals within the Church declare other individuals are the spawn of Satan because of their beliefs. Especially for the silly stuff. Its sad because its contributed to a situation where Church's across denominational lines aren't working together with each other in their communities. I know in Baltimore, this is starting change and there have actually been some good, cross denominational ministries within the past few years but I would be surprised if I heard this was common.

[armeck]

Yeah, I don't mind if my pastor or even if everyone else in the church except me is conservative. I don't mind that at all. What I mind is when they try to make their politics part of the sermon. A pastor can say "Abortion is murder" all he wants, but if he says it from the pulpit, then sorry, I'm not going to attend that church.

saying "abortion is murder" doesn't have to be a political statement...

[Cognitive Gear]

Yeah, I don't mind if my pastor or even if everyone else in the church except me is conservative. I don't mind that at all. What I mind is when they try to make their politics part of the sermon.

Yeah, exactly. I will also admit that I am a bit hypocritical about it as well, since the sermons of Martin Luther King Jr are among my favorites, but are definitely filled with politics. To be fair, it's much more difficult to disagree with a message that history has proven.

[Nate]

saying "abortion is murder" doesn't have to be a political statement...

When you can show me a person who says "Abortion is murder" but thinks it should be completely 100% legal, I'll believe you that it doesn't have to be a political statement. Until then, it is a political statement.

I shouldn't have even brought this up, I was hoping it wouldn't go down this road. Sorry mods. :\

[Radical Dreamer]

saying "abortion is murder" doesn't have to be a political statement...

Mod note: we are not going to go down that road in this thread, given its political nature.

[firestorm]

personally I think this dude who wrote the article is kinda of hypocritical. He's saying facebook and social networking is what's killing the church, but yet it's like he's making more emphasis on the social aspect of church then the actual listening of Gods word or worship. I think he's confused on his priorities of church because it's doing just as much if people are at church just for socializing then it is that their socializing on facebook.

And he's saying that preachers just don't put the fear of God into them, and that people went because they felt they had to. well I'm sorry, but from my perspective If a woman was in a relationship with me because she felt she had to, instead of because she loves me, I'd be pretty mad. I wonder if God would be mad at this happening with the church (which It probably has).

Now I don't believe that Facebook and social networking is killing the church, but I do believe it's encouraging something along with this Generation. To Quote John Piper

"One of the great uses of Twitter and Facebook will be to prove at the Last Day that prayerlessness was not from lack of time."

Let's face it. Facebook and social networking at it's core is an activity we like to participate in. We as humans love to fill our lives with things that satisfy us (not to say that's bad). But when we fill up our lives with so much things for ourselves, we run out of time to do what God had planned for our lives. We've filled our focus so much with pleasing ourselves, that we have lost opportunities, tons of them, to advance the kingdom, lost chances to bring loved ones to Christ because we'd rather do something for ourselves, lost chances to reach someone for Christ and who knows what could have come out of that, and ironically, we lose the chance to experience the life that God has planned for us, one of the biggest pleasures he can give us, and that's the saddest thing of all.

[Nate]

Now I don't believe that playing a musical instrument is killing the church, but I do believe it's encouraging something along with this Generation. To Quote John Piper

"One of the great uses of musical instruments will be to prove at the Last Day that prayerlessness was not from lack of time."

Let's face it. Playing a musical instrument at it's core is an activity we like to participate in. . .

If you don't like "playing a musical instrument," feel free to replace the phrase with "reading books," "sports," or well, pretty much anything people like to do.

Sorry but this is just the standard "I don't like that which is new to me" syndrome. We all go through it. Look at me and 3D in movies. 3D is totally stupid and a waste of time and it's ruining movies! Except it isn't. There are directors who have used 3D in excellent ways in their movies (most use it badly). I still don't like 3D in movies no matter how well it's done, though. And that's because it's new to me and I don't like it. People said the same thing about sound and color in movies. They said the same thing about television and the telephone. They said the same about rock music and comic books and video games.

Everything new that the older generation doesn't like gets held up as an example of ruining something. Sometimes it is as drastic as "the downfall of society" but other times it's more mild like "waste of time that could be spent serving God."

Okay, look. I'll be the first to admit I don't do as much as I could to serve God. But that's human nature. We're fallible and not perfect. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be better, but it also means I'm not going to get guilt tripped about playing video games or watching TV. In fact, I could turn the argument around on you. You have 677 posts on CAA (at the time of this post)! Even if every post took only one minute to write, that's almost ten hours you could have been spending praying or reading the Bible or helping at a charity! Clearly, this means CAA is problematic.

See what I mean? It can be applied to anything. Even sitting in a pew listening to a sermon is wasting time that could be spent going out and converting people to Christ or helping those who are less fortunate. Is church itself a waste of time simply because we're not out actively helping people? Of course not! But it also falls in the same category of "time that could be spent witnessing to others." Or if you want to make the argument that church has sermons that help you understand God better, I'll grant you that, but there's still all that singing and greeting time that could be cut out to make more time for witnessing.

It's not a sin to do things we enjoy. We shouldn't ever feel guilty for doing things we enjoy (as long as they're not sins, that is, but that should go without saying). I'm sure God wants us to do things we enjoy! God is our Father after all, yes? When I was out running around having a good time as a kid, I'm sure my dad liked it. My dad liked watching me do things I enjoyed doing and having a good time. I'm sure God is the same way.

As long as these things don't become more important than God, obviously. But that too should go without saying.

ironically, we lose the chance to experience the life that God has planned for us, one of the biggest pleasures he can give us, and that's the saddest thing of all.

This seems to me like saying "If you don't like the same things I like then you're missing out." I like playing video games. It's awesome. I'm not missing out on anything if I play video games. I enjoy them. Someone else might not like video games and see them as a waste of time. But that's only because that person doesn't like them. I do. I personally think baseball is horribly boring and dull and watching baseball is a waste of time. But some people actually like watching baseball (I don't understand it either, it seems impossible), and so if they enjoy watching baseball, then it's not a waste of time for them to watch baseball.

I'm experiencing my life that God gave me. I'm enjoying pleasure by playing video games. Video games are not my idol, and they're not supplanting God in my life. Everyone has different likes and dislikes and different tastes and enjoyments. Playing video games isn't a sin, and it's not more important to me than God. So if anyone even insinuated that me playing video games was "losing a chance to experience life" or that playing video games is "sad" in some way, I'd be pretty annoyed. Just sayin'.

[Sammy Boy]

All I gotta say to that article is this:

- The fellowship group I'm with finds is so much easier to organise events via email and Facebook.
- Facebook has helped me connect with Christians that I know personally, but do not attend the same church with.

[Peanut]

Sorry but this is just the standard "I don't like that which is new to me" syndrome. We all go through it. Look at me and 3D in movies. 3D is totally stupid and a waste of time and it's ruining movies! Except it isn't. There are directors who have used 3D in excellent ways in their movies (most use it badly). I still don't like 3D in movies no matter how well it's done, though. And that's because it's new to me and I don't like it. People said the same thing about sound and color in movies. They said the same thing about television and the telephone. They said the same about rock music and comic books and video games.

Everything new that the older generation doesn't like gets held up as an example of ruining something. Sometimes it is as drastic as "the downfall of society" but other times it's more mild like "waste of time that could be spent serving God."

I'd agree with you entirely Nate if it wasn't for two things: 1) Both the author of the article and Richard Beck are writing in Blogs, which are also relatively new phenomenons and 2) Richard Beck, at least, is on Facebook. He even says this in his blog post. I don't know why the author of that article failed to mention this but when you are claiming a theologian is saying that "Facebook killed the Church" but his use of Facebook means that he probably isn't one of those old guys complaining about how technology is ruining what's familiar to him. I've said it multiple times now, and I'll keep saying it, Beck seems to actually be really high on Facebook and his article reads more like a diagnostic analysis that's at least trying to be objective then a rant by some old dude who wishes we were still in the 1950s in terms of technology. But, I will say, the fact that the author of this article doesn't really mention this makes me wonder if you're at least right about him. Yes I know I said I don't agree with you at the start of this post, but as I wrote that second point I realized it really only covers for Beck who seems to be getting misrepresented a little bit in the article.

[Nate]

I was responding more to firestorm, Peanut. :p I also do realize firestorm is on Facebook (I'm like...80% sure at least?) but my issue was with his statement that Facebook is causing people to spend less time with God, and the quote about "Facebook is proof that prayerlessness wasn't due to lack of time." Because you could say that about anything. Sports are proof that prayerlessness wasn't due to lack of time. Or potluck dinners. Or Narnia books. It's unfair and disingenuous to single out any one particular past-time as somehow "worse" or "more suspect" than others.

Beck seems to actually be really high on Facebook and his article reads more like a diagnostic analysis that's at least trying to be objective then a rant by some old dude who wishes we were still in the 1950s in terms of technology.

I would argue just because he uses Facebook doesn't mean he thinks it's good. He may thoroughly hate Facebook but use it anyway. I mean that's kind of like claiming that atheists who read the Bible and study it diligently can't possibly dislike it because look how much attention they're paying to it.

My grandfather for example hates cell phones. He still owns one. He always makes a big point about keeping his cell phone off at all times except when he's in the house because "That's how it was in the old days, if I wasn't at home you couldn't reach me, and just because I have a cell phone doesn't mean that people can call me whenever they want now." So like I said, he really hates cell phones but still owns one. Mostly because my grandmother doesn't hate cell phones, and occasionally forgets hers, so he wants to have his so she can use it if she feels she needs to.

Likewise even IF the guy hated Facebook (he probably doesn't, like you said, he seems to actually be pretty cool with it) he still might use it to get out a message of how stupid and terrible Facebook is. A reluctant acceptance that even if this thing is terribad, it's permeated society so much that the only way to wean people off of it is through it.

So again, don't know the guy or anything about him, but just saying his use of Facebook is not sufficient evidence to prove he doesn't hate Facebook (and again, like I said, you mentioned he probably doesn't and that's fine, but that's based on knowledge outside of just use of Facebook).

[Peanut]

I would argue just because he uses Facebook doesn't mean he thinks it's good. He may thoroughly hate Facebook but use it anyway. I mean that's kind of like claiming that atheists who read the Bible and study it diligently can't possibly dislike it because look how much attention they're paying to it.

I can see that, however I would counter (for Beck) by pointing his comments on relationships on facebook. Instead of downplaying them as being inferior to real life, Beck claims they reflect real life, relationships and heavily emphasizes this early on in his blog post which is, coincidentally, the part that the article's author ignores. Obviously, he could still hate facebook and without knowing the guy, its impossible to tell. But I do think it would be rather weird to basically say the one critique most people level against facebook is junk and still hate facebook.

[Maledicte]

Beck revisited the topic since it got rebroadcast throughout the interwebs:

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2011/02/facebook-and-church-redux.html

As far as I can tell, he rather likes Facebook.

[Rusty Claymore]

Someone prolly got him hooked on farmville. XD

[Peanut]

As far as I can tell, he rather likes Facebook.

Second, some people think I'm trashing social networking. I'm not. In fact, I'm tacitly praising it. I'm basically saying that social networking is so effective that we no longer need physical locations to mix and mingle. The local church was, once, one of those places (as were other "third places"). Web 2.0 is, I think, putting competitive pressure on those traditional meeting spaces. Further, I'm also not saying that social networking can't be effectively used by churches. In fact, I think the church is going to have to play ball with Web 2.0.

Based off of that quote, yeah, I'd say he does.

[Syreth]

The title of the article alone destroyed it's credibility IMHO. There are too many factors contributing to the problem to make such a blanket statement.

[Rusty Claymore]

Well, I'm sure he was just trying to cover the facts.

[firestorm]

If you don't like "playing a musical instrument," feel free to replace the phrase with "reading books," "sports," or well, pretty much anything people like to do.



Sorry but this is just the standard "I don't like that which is new to me" syndrome. We all go through it. Look at me and 3D in movies. 3D is totally stupid and a waste of time and it's ruining movies! Except it isn't. There are directors who have used 3D in excellent ways in their movies (most use it badly). I still don't like 3D in movies no matter how well it's done, though. And that's because it's new to me and I don't like it. People said the same thing about sound and color in movies. They said the same thing about television and the telephone. They said the same about rock music and comic books and video games.

Everything new that the older generation doesn't like gets held up as an example of ruining something. Sometimes it is as drastic as "the downfall of society" but other times it's more mild like "waste of time that could be spent serving God."

Okay, look. I'll be the first to admit I don't do as much as I could to serve God. But that's human nature. We're fallible and not perfect. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be better, but it also means I'm not going to get guilt tripped about playing video games or watching TV. In fact, I could turn the argument around on you. You have 677 posts on CAA (at the time of this post)! Even if every post took only one minute to write, that's almost ten hours you could have been spending praying or reading the Bible or helping at a charity! Clearly, this means CAA is problematic.

See what I mean? It can be applied to anything. Even sitting in a pew listening to a sermon is wasting time that could be spent going out and converting people to Christ or helping those who are less fortunate. Is church itself a waste of time simply because we're not out actively helping people? Of course not! But it also falls in the same category of "time that could be spent witnessing to others." Or if you want to make the argument that church has sermons that help you understand God better, I'll grant you that, but there's still all that singing and greeting time that could be cut out to make more time for witnessing.

It's not a sin to do things we enjoy. We shouldn't ever feel guilty for doing things we enjoy (as long as they're not sins, that is, but that should go without saying). I'm sure God wants us to do things we enjoy! God is our Father after all, yes? When I was out running around having a good time as a kid, I'm sure my dad liked it. My dad liked watching me do things I enjoyed doing and having a good time. I'm sure God is the same way.

As long as these things don't become more important than God, obviously. But that too should go without saying.

This seems to me like saying "If you don't like the same things I like then you're missing out." I like playing video games. It's awesome. I'm not missing out on anything if I play video games. I enjoy them. Someone else might not like video games and see them as a waste of time. But that's only because that person doesn't like them. I do. I personally think baseball is horribly boring and dull and watching baseball is a waste of time. But some people actually like watching baseball (I don't understand it either, it seems impossible), and so if they enjoy watching baseball, then it's not a waste of time for them to watch baseball.

I'm experiencing my life that God gave me. I'm enjoying pleasure by playing video games. Video games are not my idol, and they're not supplanting God in my life. Everyone has different likes and dislikes and different tastes and enjoyments. Playing video games isn't a sin, and it's not more important to me than God. So if anyone even insinuated that me playing video games was "losing a chance to experience life" or that playing video games is "sad" in some way, I'd be pretty annoyed. Just sayin'.

First I would like to say that in retrospect maybe I shouldn't have started that paragraph with these 2 first sentences cause I think it clouded the meaning of what I was trying to say.

Now I don't believe that Facebook and social networking is killing the church, but I do believe it's encouraging something along with this Generation. To Quote John Piper

"One of the great uses of Twitter and Facebook will be to prove at the Last Day that prayerlessness was not from lack of time."

What I was meaning wasn't in that a specific activity was bad or not enjoying activities were bad. Not at all. While I am no longer on facebook. (haven't been on for about 5 months now due to some personal issues.) I am on twitter, tumblr, deviantart, linkedin, and many other social networking sites. I also play videogames, watch tv, movies, anime, all that good stuff. Again I didn't mean to make people think that I thought it was bad. I even said it here:

Let's face it. Facebook and social networking at it's core is an activity we like to participate in. We as humans love to fill our lives with things that satisfy us (not to say that's bad).

I wasn't talking about not enjoying these things either. It's okay and it's great to enjoy these. Your right God does want us to enjoy this life. I wasn't talking about that. But rather, what I was talking about is (and this I struggle with) when we'ved filled up our lives so much, that we don't have time for God. Obviously, there are people who, due to circumstances in their lives, their day is packed and it's hard for them That I understand. But, and I guess I'm speaking for myself here, I'm talking about when the time we spend on things we enjoy overwhelm the time we spend with God. I know I've done this before, and I've even missed out on opportunities to witness. I don't mean that I'm skipping out on everything in life. I'm just meaning that we should keep our priorities straight. that's all. And Our Number one priority is that we seek his kingdom first. Again, I'm not saying don't play the game you enjoy or not go on facebook. Just make sure your priorities are in line. In that way we can enjoy and fulfill all that God had planned for us.

I apologize for the confusion.

[F.M Disciple]

saying "abortion is murder" doesn't have to be a political statement...

Mod note: we are not going to go down that road in this thread, given its political nature.

It's a crying shame that that the pro-life movement has become so politically partisan that its not funny.

And that is all I'll say

(so please be gentle to me mods, lol)

[Radical Dreamer]

It's a crying shame that that the pro-life movement has become so politically partisan that its not funny.

And that is all I'll say

(so please be gentle to me mods, lol)

Given the fact that you quoted the post I made about how we're not going to discuss this topic, I'm assuming you read it thoroughly. We are not going to discuss this topic on CAA. End of story. There's absolutely no need to post in a thread that's been dead for two weeks just to make a political statement.

[F.M Disciple]

I apologize, I wasn't trying to stir up trouble.