What is a 'stumbling block?'

[Nate]

My focus was decent attraction vs indecent.

The only indecent attraction I can think of is attraction to someone because of social status or wealth. A person has to find their spouse sexually attractive, as this is a fundamental part of marriage. I'm not saying this gives anyone the right to go around lusting after every person they see obviously, but I don't see how focusing on certain parts of the body over others is "indecent."

So while we shouldn't condemn, we shouldn't fall back so far as to believe that anything is acceptable as long as someone says, "Lord, Lord."

No, obviously not, but that still doesn't give you the go-ahead to force your personal subjective feelings on a subject on someone else as if it was God Himself saying it. I'm using a generic "you" in this case, I'm not speaking directly to you. XD

As I'm saying in the other thread, the only thing I approve speaking to someone about in terms of moral correction is if they are harming another human being. Outside of that, I feel anything else is interpretation and personal feelings, and that personal beliefs are often forced on to other people disguised as moral correction.

Repentance is a dangerous thing to leave out, at least as far as I can see.

Only if you believe in salvation by works, as far as I'm concerned. While I obviously don't endorse Christianity as a "license to sin" (that is obviously condemned by the Bible), that doesn't mean a person sinning is doing so because they think "This is a sin but I'll just repent and I'll be fine." The person may not believe it is a sin at all. If they don't believe it is a sin, but are a Christian, are they saved? If they are saved by grace, it doesn't matter if they do it, because they are saved. If they are saved by works however, then it becomes a problem for them to do that. However, most branches of Christianity seem to be about grace-based salvation rather than works-based.

And again, I am speaking of something that the person feels is not a sin. This is not the same as a person who thinks something IS a sin, but does it anyway because "I'll just get forgiven later." The two are completely different things.

[mechana2015]

My focus was decent attraction vs indecent. While it is up to the guy to control themselves, women can make it harder than it has to be, to their knowledge or not. And yes, a lot of girls that I know just never thought about it, so it's not about faults.

Which guy from which region are we basing our standards on though? I live in a region of the world where the summer temperatures break 110 degrees on a regular basis, and it's common to see people wearing things that I know SOME groups of people would consider indecent. IS it indecent? Not in my opinion, they're just trying to not have heatstroke during their morning jog/walk, or since I work at a university, their attempt to reach class on time. Another example would be that I grew up around a lake with lots of summer boaters and swimmers. Our McDonalds by the dock was commonly full of people of all ages in swimwear. Immodest? Nope. Just practical.

[MrKrillz0r]

Judging their spiritual state because of their way of dressing is wrong of course, but a lot of girls tend to wear clothes that does make men lust more easily.

To be honest its impossible for us to know whether or not those girls actually dress that way just because its hot outside, or because they want to look good in front of men.. Its something we will most likely never know, unless given a much more informational description of the situation.

My personal opinion is that you should not judge those girls salvation because of how they dress, but they could be doing something wrong when dressing like that, its possible for sure.

[Nate]

Which brings up the interesting point of say, kids who are raised in nudist camps. They've seen naked bodies since they can remember. To them, a nude body isn't in and of itself sexual because they've been around it their whole lives, it's something they've always seen. It's normal to them.

In fact, wearing clothes might actually be a stumbling block for those people. Clothes are something exotic and different and accentuate certain body parts. To them, clothing might actually cause them to lust more than regular nudity!

EDIT:

they could be doing something wrong when dressing like that

I disagree. I don't see any verses that say "Thou shalt not wear short shorts." I don't see how the way you dress can be wrong or bad. We're getting into the "Men having long hair is a sin so any man with long hair isn't Christian" type stuff.

[Cognitive Gear]

I still fail to see why how someone dresses would have anything to do with their salvation or who they are inside. Sorry.

I just want to note that clothing is often a form of self-expression. So while I don't think it is a very good indicator of spiritual health, I do think that clothing will often tell you something about someone.

I say this as a guy who is more likely to do a double take due to what a girl is wearing (due to style/outift) than I am just because she is flaunting her features.

[MrKrillz0r]

If someone dresses with very few clothing that they know might make someone lust after them, while thinking that they do want to look good in front of others.. Ah.. I can't explain my thinking so I'll just shut up..

What I'm trying to get at is that I think the mind state of how you dress might make it a sin, but I'd guess its not really the clothes themself then.

*hopefully someone might get what I tried to say.. in that case, GOOD JOB!*

(Excuse my english, I have a feeling I might have failed miserably somewhere in this text.. I'm from the north of Sweden, we vikings don't go to school)

[TheMewster]

A stumbling block, despite what some people may tell you, is not anything that offends you or upsets you.

For example, if I was to crack open a beer around someone and they were like "Drinking alcohol is a sin!" that is not a stumbling block. And I have no obligation to stop drinking that beer.

However. If I was to be around someone and cracked open a beer and they went "Drinking alcohol is a sin but...drinking beer sounds really awesome, I should have one," then now I am a stumbling block, and I should not drink beer around that person. I am tempting someone else into what they believe to be a sin. Again, if they are merely offended by it, then it's not a stumbling block. It is only when they are tempted into doing something they believe is sinful by my actions that I become a stumbling block.

But what I don't get is, what if it's not a sin? What if it's a misunderstanding? Don't we need to explain it? But the alcoholic thing, I can understand.
Also, can we please stop judging people by their looks...and just leave the judging to God, PERIOD?:hits_self Seriously, you're kind of derailing this thread.

[MrKrillz0r]

But what I don't get is, what if it's not a sin? What if it's a misunderstanding? Don't we need to explain it? But the alcoholic thing, I can understand.
Also, can we please stop judging people by their looks...and just leave the judging to God, PERIOD?:hits_self Seriously, you're kind of derailing this thread.

Sorry, I don't see that much judging going on though, more of a discussion about whether or not it coud be a sin in someway. ^^ Although that is not really meant to be posted here, so again I'm sorry!

[Nate]

Your English is fine, man. :p What I'm saying is girls wearing certain clothing is not inherently wrong or sinful. It can cause others to fall into temptation though, but that still doesn't make the clothing itself wrong.

Okay let's do it this way. A girl in a church youth group is wearing short shorts. If people sit around and go "How can she wear those shorts, they're so short, that's so wrong," she is not being a stumbling block. No one is being tempted to sin. She is not tempting anyone to sin. They're actually being jerks by judging what she wears.

However, let's say that one guy walks up to the girl and says "I'm sorry, but I want you to know that those shorts make me think thoughts about you that I feel are sinful. Could you maybe wear longer shorts next time?" It is now a stumbling block, because someone has expressed that they are thinking thoughts that they feel are sinful, and are being tempted into sin. She should respect him and not dress that particular way again.

However, a girl should not be forced to dress a certain way because of a hypothetical man who might find her outfit to be too revealing. If she dresses that way and it causes a problem, then that's different. But to tell a girl "You shouldn't wear this because someone MIGHT think this," that's not a stumbling block. No one is actively being tempted into sin, and until someone is, it's not wrong. That's what I'm trying to convey.

To go back to my alcohol example, you can't say to me "Someone might think drinking is a sin so you shouldn't drink so you don't offend them." Sorry, I'm under no obligation to not drink because of a hypothetical person that MIGHT be offended. I'll drink if I want. But if someone does say "Hey, could you please not drink around me?" then I would respect them and not drink in their presence.

I hope that's clearer!

[TheMewster]

Thanks, Nate! It's clearer!

[Maledicte]

On the subject of wearing clothes that can drive a person to lust, I think men should stop wearing tank tops during the summer, v-neck tee shirts that expose toned chests, or well-cut suits that emphasize powerful shoulders.

Just to show you how ridiculous this all can be.

[mechana2015]

Like how men can go shirtless nearly everywhere, but women can't?

[Cognitive Gear]

On the subject of wearing clothes that can drive a person to lust, I think men should stop wearing tank tops during the summer, v-neck tee shirts that expose toned chests, or well-cut suits that emphasize powerful shoulders.

Just to show you how ridiculous this all can be.

Check, check..

DANGIT. No more suiting up.

Like how men can go shirtless nearly everywhere, but women can't?

We all know why.

[mechana2015]

DANGIT. No more suiting up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdQfVhBRAo&feature=player_embedded

[MrKrillz0r]

I think everyone should dress as rappers does, I mean if you got really big clothes that would hide all of your features, forms, or whatever its called.. In that case I'm proud to say I wear pretty big clothes, it must mean I'm a really good person.

Oh right, I was supposed to shut up about the clothing matter. :x

*EDIT* I really do need those big clothes to hide my big muscles and stuff, I do train A LOT everyday to build up my strenght.. for my level 85 night elf druid.

[TheMewster]

OK I'm serious. We were talking about stumbling blocks, not skimpy clothes here. Then again, we're supposed to turn the other cheek, so go ahead and argue about it here. Sorry if I come across as rude, but really, you guys are derailing mah thread.

[mechana2015]

I think Nate, K. Ayato and SubtleDoctor pretty much covered the original question. Clothing, hair, entertainment and food and drink are the most common targets of the 'stumbling block' concept, so I don't think we're honestly that far afield anyhow. I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on the OTHER main subjects I just mentioned.

[MrKrillz0r]

Yeah I'm with mech here, is there still something thats not clear?

[TopazRaven]

Seriously, why does everyone throw a hissy fit if the thread takes a different turn for awhile or doesn't turn out how they wanted. -_- You are on a public form. It's going to happen.

[Rusty Claymore]

Topic changes are a stumbling block!! O.O
XD

[Radical Dreamer]

Just to get everyone back on topic here, no, this thread is not headed too far off track--the conversation is actually flowing pretty naturally. However, if you feel like it's too far from where you want it to be, please provide us with some suggestions for what to talk about aside from clothing, as that is a pretty big topic when discussing stumbling blocks. I will reiterate what Topaz Raven said, though--this is a public forum, and in a public forum, people will their contribute various ideas to a topic and it'll change and flow from there. Don't be too surprised or offended if your topic begins to morph slightly from the original point.