Purity

[Ella Edric]

Courting, dating, to me it doesn't matter what you call it if the objective is the same regardless.

"Avoid the very appearance of evil." The bible says. And by worldly standards, dating can mean different things. So, by using the title courting, it sounds more up to Christian standards. Even if to a Christian the two are on in the same, to outsiders they aren't always. That's just how I see it. ^_^

[mechana2015]

"Avoid the very appearance of evil." The bible says. And by worldly standards, dating can mean different things. So, by using the title courting, it sounds more up to Christian standards. Even if to a Christian the two are on in the same, to outsiders they aren't always. That's just how I see it. ^_^

Courting just makes you sound like you're at Ren-faire to me.

Dating doesn't mean 'doing it' to anyone I know, it just means that two people are attracted and exploring a closer emotional relationship, usually with a mind towards further connections, generally marriage or some sort of 'common law' relationship.

[K. Ayato]

LOL Good one, mech.

[Nate]

"Avoid the very appearance of evil." The bible says.

Actually, that's a mistranslation. The verse is better translated as "Abstain from every form of evil."

That would result, as it did in some strands of Judaism, in multiplying rules and commandments to infinite numbers in order to define precisely what "appearance" might mean in any particular situation. That would be a solid basis for the worst aspects of legalism.

I mean how would you even define the "appearance" of evil anyway? It would just invite judgment of others (the Bible talks against judgment). "That person is evil because it looks like they're doing something evil...it doesn't matter if it is evil or not, it just LOOKS evil!" Doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Besides, Jesus proves that this is wrong anyway. Given the fact that Jesus Himself spent time with tax-collectors and prostitutes, He would not have passed the test of the appearance of evil! In fact, the self-righteous Pharisees of his day took him to task at this very point. They constantly accused him of "guilt by association," that he was sinning because the associated with sinners and did not take pains to avoid the appearance of impropriety by avoiding sinners and disreputable places and events.

In other words, the Pharisees tried to say "You're not avoiding the appearance of evil" to Jesus. Jesus, of all people! Since we can say that Jesus never sinned, and was perfect, that the verse cannot be saying to avoid the appearance of evil.

[Atria35]

Actually, that's a mistranslation. The verse is better translated as "Abstain from every form of evil."

That would result, as it did in some strands of Judaism, in multiplying rules and commandments to infinite numbers in order to define precisely what "appearance" might mean in any particular situation. That would be a solid basis for the worst aspects of legalism.

I mean how would you even define the "appearance" of evil anyway? It would just invite judgment of others (the Bible talks against judgment). "That person is evil because it looks like they're doing something evil...it doesn't matter if it is evil or not, it just LOOKS evil!" Doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Besides, Jesus proves that this is wrong anyway. Given the fact that Jesus Himself spent time with tax-collectors and prostitutes, He would not have passed the test of the appearance of evil! In fact, the self-righteous Pharisees of his day took him to task at this very point. They constantly accused him of "guilt by association," that he was sinning because the associated with sinners and did not take pains to avoid the appearance of impropriety by avoiding sinners and disreputable places and events.

In other words, the Pharisees tried to say "You're not avoiding the appearance of evil" to Jesus. Jesus, of all people! Since we can say that Jesus never sinned, and was perfect, that the verse cannot be saying to avoid the appearance of evil.

That.... is an incredibly good point. My Pentacostal friend doesn't even go to the movies because it could convery the 'appearance of evil'. A different translation casts a whole new light on that.

[mechana2015]

Yeah, appearance of evil is used to justify all kinds of things such as boycotting beverages in glass bottles, avoiding pants on women and longer hair on men, not watching anime, movies or all television as a whole, not eating at any restaurant that has a bar, not holding hands with people of the opposite sex, not holding hands with people of the same sex, not being alone with a person of the same or opposite sex unless you're married, beards, certain styles of glasses, not shopping at grocery stores that sell alcohol, and to justify the entire 'christian economy' movement.

[Nate]

That's a good point on the anime thing. You'd think we, as Christians who are fans of anime, would be more against this verse than anyone else. I mean, watching anime would give the appearance of evil, right? Since people mostly classify anime as "those ultra-violent Japanese porno cartoons." Or Pokemon...which is also seen as evil to some Christians so you'd be giving the appearance of evil there too!

But the fact that Jesus hung out with people and in places that would have given Him the appearance of evil is proof enough that the verse can't possibly mean how it's used.

[Hansha]

I've noticed this tends to be a bigger issue with girls than guys. Maybe it's that romantic tendency that tends to be stronger in some females.

Needless to say I have a few problems with the no kissing rule as well as courting in general.

For one, if you have no physical contact at all with your significant other, what's to separate your relationship from just another close friendship?

Secondly, couldn't a lack of physical contact in a relationship lead to an awkward physical relationship in marriage? I'm sure some can definitely attest to this.

Let me say that I have no problem with people deciding to go with the no kissing and/or no physical contact rule, and with only deciding to court. But keep in mind that this mindset can scare away a lot of guys. It can give off a standoffish or hard to get appearance. For example I tend not to pursue the girls who I know only want to court/no physical contact because I know that any attempt to pursue them would become extremely awkward and more likely than not would wind up with me getting rejected.

My next issue is with courting itself. I think it's wrong to think of people as means to an end. Courting takes the relationship and turns it into just a way to find a husband/wife. It puts a ton of pressure on those involved. IMO, you should figure out if you're compatible with this person and whether or not you actually "like" them before even thinking about marriage. Dating is as much about discovery as it is about finding a life partner.

Oh yeah, that book I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I find absolutely atrocious and unrealistic. But that's another topic.

reeeeeeally wish I hadn't said anything about kissing female friends now.

I meant like on the cheek. guess thats stranger than I thought.

[K. Ayato]

He didn't just hang out with them as an adult during His earthly ministry. Galilee didn't have much of a stellar reputation. Remember Nathanael asking Philip "Can any good thing come out of Galilee?"

[Atria35]

reeeeeeally wish I hadn't said anything about kissing female friends now.

Don't take it seriously- they're just teasing, and know exactly how you meant it.

[aliveinHim]

Like others have said, more power to you. It's totally up to you to pursue and keep your own convictions. But since you asked what we think, I'll give you a more complete response

I don't see any connection at all between healthy marriages and saving the first kiss until the wedding day. The folks at Prepare and Enrich (Christian marriage experts who have developed some of the most widely used premarital counseling curriculum) will tell you that the quality of a marriage - or any relationship - has more to do with relationship skills such as conflict resolution and active listening rather than secondary issues like kissing. The decision to abstain from kissing until marriage does not grant you magical powers from God to ensure a happy marriage, like many Christians seem to think.

There are two young couples that I know who saved their first kiss until marriage. One of the couples is actually quite miserable. The other couple is pretty happy, but the happy couple will admit that their marital satisfaction has nothing to do with their following a strict rule about kissing.

The other example I can think of is my brother, who saved his first kiss until his wedding day. They divorced almost ten years later.


Have you read anything by Joshua Harris, by chance? Just curious.

The other convictions you have about purity are pretty solid, in my opinion - not that my opinion matters, really. I'd just encourage you to continue to follow your own convictions as you have. Thanks for asking for input.

I haven't read Joshua Harris yet, but that's on my list of books to read before I die. I'm aware that just because you save your first kiss doesn't mean everything will be perfect. The main issue is choosing. Kisses are just expressions of the choice.

I'm sorry about your brother. That's terrible. I want to have a clear conscience on my wedding day.

[ShiroiHikari]

I've hated the traditional interpretation of that verse for as long as I can remember. Only as I got older did I really begin to understand why I hated it. "Avoid/shun the appearance of evil". Well, what is "evil"? Wearing your hair the wrong way? Wearing certain garments? Hanging out with "certain" people? Sorry but I think there are far greater evils to be concerned about.

[aliveinHim]

Read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Those lay down a good list of good and evil. The food laws though were declared clean by Jesus in the New Testament. Galatians and Revelation give a list of what's evil. So does 1 Corinthians.

[mechana2015]

Edit: Better idea to just break it down.

The first 7 chapters are about animal sacrafices. 8-10 are about the founding of the Israilite priesthood. 11 is the food laws. 12 is health and sacrafice rules for childbirth. Do you call women unclean and tell them not to come to church after they give birth for 2 months? 13-15 are health rules. 16-17 are health rules and sacrafice rules that can't be applied unless you have a tabernacle in the center of your town and your pastor doesn't mind you asking him to mess with blood. 18 is essentially a public health decree. 19-20 is the basic law of the Israilites. Do you stand whenever your elders enter the room? 21-22 are the Priestly rules. 23 is all of the festivals of the Israilites. 24 is back to sacrafices, and law. 26 is festival years. I wish we celebrated Jubilee. 27 is the rewards for following the law, and the punishments for not following it. 28 is more laws, including dedicating children to the lord and land titles.

Which part of Leviticus were you referring to?

[Beau Soir]

Looking at "dating" versus "courting," I see dating as, I don't know... played off as cheaper and disposable. Maybe it's the friends I have who are still in high school and change their Facebook relationship statuses every few hours...? But with how dating is played out nowadays, there's what- casual dating? "Open" relationships with dating multiple people... speed dating... online dating. If you have one date with someone and there's nothing there, then it's okay if that's it. But if you're courting someone, you're in it for the long run which will come out to marriage. Or at least that's what I know from experience... And of course, there's more to it than that.

*random change of subject* @__@

[Atria35]

Read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Those lay down a good list of good and evil. The food laws though were declared clean by Jesus in the New Testament. Galatians and Revelation give a list of what's evil. So does 1 Corinthians.

The problem is in the word 'appearance'. What that means is that if something appears evil to someone else, you shouldn't do it. Like going to the movies, since you could be going to see an R-rated movie and not Toy Story. YOU may know that you're going to see Toy Story, but other people don't know that.

Which is why most versions no longer translate that section to say 'appearance', or make note that it's probably a wrong translation.

[Nate]

The food laws though were declared clean by Jesus in the New Testament.

This isn't exactly true. It was in Acts, when Peter was asleep, and he had the dream where all the animals were on a huge blanket or something and a voice said "Kill and eat." And Peter protested, saying that he'd never eaten unclean food and the voice responded that there pretty much was no such thing as unclean food, and it happened three times before Peter woke up.

Also yeah, I'd say Leviticus and Deuteronomy aren't really the best places to get an idea of what's evil, because we're not under the Law of Moses anymore. At least last I checked, I'm able to wear a poly-cotton blend shirt without it being evil.

1 Corinthians is good though. Not too familiar on Galatians so I can't speak to that one way or the other. XP

[mechana2015]

Looking at "dating" versus "courting," I see dating as, I don't know... played off as cheaper and disposable. Maybe it's the friends I have who are still in high school and change their Facebook relationship statuses every few hours...?

That's an immature High School thing.

But with how dating is played out nowadays, there's what- casual dating? "Open" relationships with dating multiple people... speed dating... online dating.

First off open relationships and speed dating arn't nearly as common as you'd think. Second, what's wrong with finding a person through the internet? Would it be better if it was called online courting? Casual dating is just dating a person to see if you hit it off personality wise.

If you have one date with someone and there's nothing there, then it's okay if that's it. But if you're courting someone, you're in it for the long run which will come out to marriage. Or at least that's what I know from experience... And of course, there's more to it than that.

So even if the first courting... meeting... is bad you're supposed to stick with it? That doesn't even make sense. How are you supposed to figure out if you want to court someone if you don't get to know them first, personally. I honestly see courting as what happens when people decide that they want to get married, but the sort of buildup to the proposal. I think it would be grossly irresponsable to jump to that stage immediately.

[Syreth]

I want to have a clear conscience on my wedding day.

I'd never suggest that you do anything to violate your conscience. I would point out, however, that sometimes your conscience can set you up for failure. The miserable couple I mentioned earlier set boundaries that were too difficult for them to keep. When they broke those boundaries, those actions that would have been affectionate now have strong feelings of guilt associated with them, so they are no longer able to enjoy those actions as they would have, even though they are married. Just food for thought.

[animefanatic777]

This is a conversation that I've had with so many people. In the homeschool community, this is a never ending conversation. I've made myself my list.

1.) My first kiss will be on my wedding day.
2.) No sexual intercourse until after I'm married.
3.) I will only court, no recreational dating.
4.) I will not move in with a boyfriend until we're married.

I wear a purity ring to remind myself. I know that God has the special guy planned for me. I have my list of qualities I want in a guy.

1.) He must love God first and foremost.
2.) He must love me.
3.) He must love our family.
4.) He must love the church.
5.) He can be an otaku .

What do you all think?

I concur with this and really appreciate how you stick up for your beliefs like that =D Though I've already had my first kiss. I don't think I couldn't date anyone without kissing... Well, I could, it'd just be hard. I'd hug'em a whole lot. That's what I'd do to get my affection out. I'd hug and kiss on the cheek or forehead :3 I can find ways to substitute XD Good job with the whole sex thing. I believe in that to. I haven't had that in my... Three girlfriends. XD A WHOPPING THREE.

What's the difference between courting and dating again? Sorry >.<;

I concur with this!.... Except with a girlfriend lol No living together until marriage. That's how it should be :3

I hope you can find a guy who loves God first and foremost =D I know there's guys like that. I hope it isn't a bad thing to admit I know that's the way I am <.<; hehe ^^;

WELL OF COURSE. The guy you marry should always love you XD That's why when marriage comes around, you ask God if it's OK. Both you and your boyfriend, and then get a close friend or two and see if they get the same answer :3 Dating.courting is also to see if they love you... If that's what courting is <.<; lol

To simply state with this one, we don't need Mother/Father in law wars. That is all. XD

Well, we are the church. Our bodies. So just so long as he loves God, you, and himself. Just loving anyone really, he loves the church :3 Now, if you mean a building, then OK XD I understand what you mean :3

OH YEAH. Otaku's are awesome :3 Just so long as it doesn't absorb their lives XD

So, to cut a long post short. I agree with what you're saying. I like it :3 The guy who get's you will be very lucky :3

[Yamamaya]

Read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Those lay down a good list of good and evil. The food laws though were declared clean by Jesus in the New Testament. .

I disagree. Otherwise we would still throw women out of the city when they're on their periods and we would stone people who break the Sabbath.

Also Hansah, we were just joking.

[aliveinHim]

[quote="animefanatic777 (post: 1460745)"]I concur with this and really appreciate how you stick up for your beliefs like that =D Though I've already had my first kiss. I don't think I couldn't date anyone without kissing... Well, I could, it'd just be hard. I'd hug'em a whole lot. That's what I'd do to get my affection out. I'd hug and kiss on the cheek or forehead :3 I can find ways to substitute XD Good job with the whole sex thing. I believe in that to. I haven't had that in my... Three girlfriends. XD A WHOPPING THREE.

What's the difference between courting and dating again? Sorry >.<]

You're awesome! *High 5*

[animefanatic777]

You're awesome! *High 5*

Nah, I'm just bein' who God created me to be :3 Thank you very much though! -High fives back!- Whoo! lol

[K. Ayato]

Here's another dose of my 2 cents. I'm all for putting reasonable boundaries within one's relationships with members of the opposite sex. I'm not in favor, however, of so many boundaries in regards to sex that one fails to grasp and understand their sexuality.

No, I'm not saying one should explore with porn or anything against their personal convictions. What I am saying is that one understand this is part of life and treat it as such. Giving a personal example, I grew up in an environment where sex just wasn't talked about. Every time the guy I dated (who I'm now married to ) brought up questions on what I thought about sex in general, I would close up. That nearly caused some pretty serious problems in our relationship, and if I didn't start looking at sexuality and anatomy more objectively and realizing it was a normal part of life, it could have caused a lot of problems in marriage.

Guess what I'm trying to say with all this is, don't freak out because you have urges and keep an open mind.

[Htom Sirveaux]

I suppose I don't really have a big problem with "dating," I know you gotta find a mate somehow. It's just that the less seriously you take it, the less good it will do.

I remember I went on a blind/double date once with a friend and two young ladies that he knew. I didn't expect any positive results and I wasn't surprised. The girl I was paired off with was very disappointing indeed. Nowhere near what I want in a woman. So I only steer clear of the casual dating scene because I find it totally useless.

[Radical Dreamer]

I suppose I don't really have a big problem with "dating," I know you gotta find a mate somehow. It's just that the less seriously you take it, the less good it will do.

I think this is where most people are getting confused. XD "Dating" is a word that describes two people getting to know one another better, in a romantic context. People choose to "date" in different ways, whether casually or seriously. Some people date with the intention of marriage (see myself and many others), and other people date for a good time. My point is, you don't need to make a separate word so that people will know you are "Christian" dating. XD Dating is dating, but how you handle it will be what sets you apart, not a specific word you use. XD My two cents. XD

[K. Ayato]

Amen!

[Htom Sirveaux]

Well Corrie, I didn't use separate words. I mean, like you said, there seems to be varying degrees ranging from one-shot dating for funsies to dating with consideration to a serious commitment. I'm saying, to each his own, but I personally find the more casual and carefree levels to be pointless, if not necessarily bad.

[Radical Dreamer]

Well Corrie, I didn't use separate words. I mean, like you said, there seems to be varying degrees ranging from one-shot dating for funsies to dating with consideration to a serious commitment. I'm saying, to each his own, but I personally find the more casual and carefree levels to be pointless, if not necessarily bad.

Yeah, in spite of the fact that I replied to your post, I wasn't actually addressing what you said 100%. XDD Your post just sort of reminded me of the issue, so I quoted it so it wouldn't seem like I was popping up out of nowhere with that idea. XD Sorry for the confusion! XD

[Htom Sirveaux]

No sweat.